When was the last time you heard the word Rapture in your Church?

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Heart2Soul

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I assume that CF is Christianity Forum?
Oh yes, sorry I assume most people know that.....I think this is the sister forum to CF? Same kind of design and same rules....just not so rigid on spiritual topics.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Oh yes, sorry I assume most people know that.....I think this is the sister forum to CF? Same kind of design and same rules....just not so rigid on spiritual topics.
This forum's software is by the same company that does CF -- it's not a religious company, they just do software.

I'm not in charge here, but I would not that this forum is remotely a sister forum of CF. In fact, many of the people on here came here after having horrible experiences with CF (myself included). This forum is much more welcoming and open.
 
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Willie T

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This forum's software is by the same company that does CF -- it's not a religious company, they just do software.

I'm not in charge here, but I would not that this forum is remotely a sister forum of CF. In fact, many of the people on here came here after having horrible experiences with CF (myself included). This forum is much more welcoming and open.
A big AMEN to that! CF has its good points, but it is overwhelmingly a staunchly Religiously oppressive environment.
 
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Ac28

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Keraz,

I didn't quote you, in order to keep my post under the 10,000 character limit. I am answering your post #118

Not one verse you quoted is TO or ABOUT anyone living today. Except for Christ, everything written TO and ABOUT us today is found ONLY in Paul's 7 books written AFTER Acts - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon.

Everyone in the rapture will either be Jews or those few Gentiles who were part of Israel in Acts, because they were all grafted into Israel. The best proof that the rapture will not take anyone to Heaven is that no Israelite in the Bible ever had a chance of going to Heaven.

No offense, but we Gentiles today, who are given the eyes to see the Hope of our calling, will go to the Highest Heaven, where God makes His abode. Everyone living today is Called to this Calling, but very few are chosen. Although there is no smoking gun verse to prove it, there are plenty of circumstantial proofs that Heaven is not automatic for all believers today. It seems that God won't give you the eyes to see it if you persist in claiming that myriad of things from the long-gone dispensations of Acts, the Gospels, and the OT, that were given ONLY to Israel, pertain to anyone living today. Here's a short list of a few of these things that must be eliminated from your doctrine, if you want to go to Heaven. Like salvation, Heaven seems to be a gift through your faith, by God's grace. To have faith, you must believe it is true. If you still think these listed things are FOR you, it's impossible that you can see and believe those things in Paul's post-Acts books are FOR you. You can't have both, because they conflict with what is really FOR you, in Eph, Col, etc.
---the rapture,
---the Gifts,
---the New Jerusalem,
---the Acts Church,
---water baptism,
---communion,
---the Lord's prayer,
---the Sermon on the Mount,
---the Kingdom of Heaven,
---the Great Commission,
---the New Covenant,
---And MANY MANY MORE!!

The present church which is the actual Body of Christ, Ephesians 5:30 , where Christ is the Head, found ONLY is Paul's 7 post-Acts books, has a Calling of going to the Heavenly Places, the Heaven of Heavens, Far above the starry Heavens, the Holy of Holies, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. No group in the other 59 all-Israel books EVER had a chance of going to Heaven. No one in Acts will go to Heaven, including those Jews in the Church and those Gentiles in the Church that were all grafted into Israel, which will all ultimately be in the rapture. Everything in Acts was set on hold, when Israel was set aside as a nation in the Acts of the Apostles 28:25-28 , when the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10 was pronounced on them, vss 25-27, and the Salvation of God (Jesus Christ) was taken from them and given to the Gentiles, vs 28.

Those who God gives the eyes to see the Hope of their Calling, in those 7 books, are going to the Highest Heaven, for sure.
Ephesians 1:17-18
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


Ephesians 1:20 (Christ's ascension to Heavenly Places)
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 2:6 (Us - same place)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We are citizens of Heaven and we will be resurrected to Heaven, from where we will wait for Christ to appear
Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it (Heaven) we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Through God's foreknowledge, we were chosen and predestinated to have every spiritual blessing possible, in Heavenly Places, before the world began.
Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The secret of all this is to obey 2Tim 2:15, and Rightly Divide (make a straight Cut, correctly Cut) God's Word of Truth. Note that this verse appears only in one of Paul's post-Acts books. Why? Because it wasn't needed before! The reason it wasn't needed before is because everything before (the other 59 books) was written entirely TO and ABOUT ISRAEL. But now, ONLY in Paul's last 7 books, everything is written TO and ABOUT US GENTILES. So, we must divide those things Israel from those things Gentile. There are many things given to Israel that contradict those things given to the Gentiles. For example, Israel will spend eternity on the New Earth or, those special Israelites, like Abraham and the 12, will be in the all-Israel New Jerusalem. On the other hand, we Gentiles who can see the Hope of our calling will be in the Highest Heaven. Another example: The Jews and Gentiles in the Acts church will be resurrected in the rapture at Christ's second Coming, His parousia, but we in today's Church in Eph, Col, etc., will be resurrected in Christ's Appearing, His epiphaneia, 1 Timothy 6:14 , 2 Timothy 4:1 , 2 Timothy 4:8 , Titus 2:13

So, the only place in scripture that can be cut, to divide everything Israel from everything Gentile, is between Acts and Ephesians. Then we get rid of all those things in our belief system, everything in the 59 all-Israel books, that were (1) given to Israel (except for Christ), (2) were written TO or ABOUT Israel, or (3) that said something about Israel's future. Then you replace those all-Jewish things with with the far, far better all-Gentile things, which are found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. As a bonus, if you do CORRECTLY CUT God's word, you will be approved unto God and will have no need to feel ashamed
2Tim 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I should mention that the Greek word, orthotomeo, which is translated, "rightly dividing", absolutely means. according to Strong's, make a straight cut, correctly cut, correctly dissect. No matter what, you must see that we are commanded to CUT God's Word. Many modern Bible have replaced this with wimpy, milky phrases, like "handling aright" (ASV), "rightly handling" (ESV), "accurately handling" (NASB), or "correctly handles" (NIV). The meaning of tomeo is CUT. It (tome) is used to translate the word circumcision 36 times in the NT. A micro-tome is a sharp knife used to cut thin sections in a lab. Selling Bibles is big business and it seems obvious to me that these publishers thought that telling people to cut up God's Word, might cost them some sales. In any case, not using the word cut or divide, totally destroys the meaning of the verse.


 
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Keraz

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It was somewhat of a pun.....I suppose for newcomers it may prove to be an interesting topic for debate....for those who have been here awhile are probably done with that merry-go-round. I have read many of your posts on CF concerning prophesy and end times....some I have agreed with others not so much but it works both ways.
My article refuting the 'rapture to heaven' theory, isn't up for debate.
It simply proves the falsity and complete deception of that Satanic lie.
I don't like to have to say this, but those who just push those scriptural Truths aside and carry on in their belief that God is going to rapture them, may face a tougher time at the Judgement.
 

Keraz

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Not one verse you quoted is TO or ABOUT anyone living today. Except for Christ, everything written TO and ABOUT us today is found ONLY in Paul's 7 books written AFTER Acts - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon.
Thanks for your effort in this post, Ac28.
I disagree with pretty much all of it, esp your comment above. The whole Bible can apply to us today, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11 All those things that happened to them [the ancestors] were symbolic and were recorded as a warning for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
And 2 Peter 1:19
You maintain a divide between Israel and the Church. Yes, the Jewish State of Israel and the established Church are separate entities, but there is only One people of God. John 17:20-23, Titus 2:11-14....a peculiar people.
They are every faithful believer, Jew and Gentile, all born again Christians and as all of God's Promises are in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 1:20, therefore we Christians are the inheritors. Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29
NOT ethnic Israel, as ethnicity counts for nothing now. Ephesians 2:11-18

I do not wish to go to live in the 'highest heaven'. that is waaaay beyond my pay grade.
We humans are earth people and those who do believe in God and are born again in Jesus, have been given tasks to do here. The Great Commission, Matthew 28:19, has not yet been rescinded, I suggest that you and all who are awaiting a rapture, get on with what you can do in your various situations and when Jesus Returns, be seen doing His work.
 

Heart2Soul

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My article refuting the 'rapture to heaven' theory, isn't up for debate.
It simply proves the falsity and complete deception of that Satanic lie.
I don't like to have to say this, but those who just push those scriptural Truths aside and carry on in their belief that God is going to rapture them, may face a tougher time at the Judgement.
I don't think we are taken into the 3rd Heaven for certain because that is God's Throne and His Holy of Holies....I am just learning about the 3 heavens as well as mention of 3 earth ages so I am trying to study on that too.
 
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Keraz

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Be careful what you wish for.:)
What I look forward to; is the amazing time of living during the Millennium, with Jesus as King.
When those 1000 years are over and everyone who has ever lived stands before God, Revelation 20:11-15, the Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are Written in it, will receive Eternal life; THEN God will dwell with mankind, Revelation 21:1-7, so heaven will be on earth.

If you believe in a 'rapture to heaven' as the next event and because that isn't what I wish for; I will get 'left behind', then you not only display the depth of deception you are in, but you also prejudge your Christian brethren. James 4:11-12
 
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Ac28

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I don't think we are taken into the 3rd Heaven for certain because that is God's Throne and His Holy of Holies....I am just learning about the 3 heavens as well as mention of 3 earth ages so I am trying to study on that too.

The 3rd Heaven is in the future, chronologically. We now have the 2nd Heaven. The 1st Heaven and earth, in Gen 1:1, were overthrown after Satan rebelled. The earth BECAME without form and void, Gen 1:2 - the first "was" in Gen 1:2 should be translated, "became." God remade the 1st heaven and earth into the 2nd heavens and earth, that we have today. They will be destroyed by fire and the 3rd Heavens and earth will be constructed, which is called the New Heavens and New Earth.

The only occurrence of the "third heaven", is in 2 Corinthians 12:2 , where Paul talks about John (most likely) being in the Spirit in Patmos, in 43AD, when he received the contents of the book of Revelation and was spiritually taken into the future. In 2Cor 12, paradise, which is also future, is associated with the third heaven, which is the New Heavens (and the New Earth). Note in Revelation 2:7 , the paradise is associated with tree of life, which is associated with the New Heavens and New Earth, Revelation 21:1, 22:2, 14. All of this is maybe 1100 years down the line.

God's abode is called Heavenly Places (Eph 1:3, 1:20, 2:6, 3:10), Far Above All Heavens (Eph 4:10), the Heaven of Heavens (Deut 10:4, 1Ki 8:27, 2Chr 2:6, 6:18, Neh 9:6), Glory, which is above the Heavens in Ps 8:1. Of course, it us the Holy of Holies, as you said. The 5 verses with the Heaven of Heavens in them all mention the 3 different Spheres of the universe - the earth, the heaven, and the Heaven of Heavens. All 3 will be occupied with saved humans.

For those that God gives the eyes of understanding to SEE the present Hope of His Calling (see Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:16-23, especially Ephesians 1:17-18 ) , spending eternity in Heavenly Places is a real possibility. In Ephesians 1:20, we see that is where Christ ascended and now sits at the right hand of God. In Ephesians 2:6 , we see that we can be resurrected to that very same place, the Holy of Holies.

Please read my post #124 above for a lot more information on this subject
 
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Naomi25

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If you try to figure out the Understanding of Gods Word, in your MIND...its a fail.

Um....pardon me....but...isn't that what we do every time we read scripture? Aren't you saying, in effect, that it is "a fail" to try and understand scripture when we read it?
How then, do you propose we understand God if not by the very word he has given us for this purpose?
 
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Naomi25

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Please recite this Bible book, chapter, verse for me?

Recite that CLEAR point....as you said "God became man".

Wow, how immature. No one said that, and even saying something so childish is out of line in a discussion about the Lord.

Three times you have said this was clearly IN scrpture....

Please provide the scripture.

God Bless,
Taken

You think it immature, but for those who clearly see scripture saying that Christ became fully man, your insistance that he 'only looked like it', like some sort of cheap ruse so he could blend in with the locals, is the cheap shot, taking so much out of the incarnation and what it meant.

Passages?

Philippians 2:5–8 is perhaps the most descisive.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

You may say, "Ah ha! 'form' only means outward image!'...but does it?

We know that Christ was equal to God, that the fullness of diety dwelt in him:

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, -Colossians 2:9
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, -Colossians 1:19


So we can conclude that when Phillipians 2:6 talks about Christ having the "form" of God, it means, by 'form', that he was God. And if the same word is then used for him taking the 'form' of human, we must conclude that Christ was fully human, just as he was fully God. The only way you can ignore the correlation between the words and how the writer uses them, is if you try to argue that Christ was not also fully God, which the text outright states.
 
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Naomi25

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Disagree.
Phil 2:6

What does Phil 2:6 has to say about Christ's post-resurrection body? That whole passage is talking about the incarnation...his coming and the purpose of it. It does not talk about his post-resurrection body. So...not sure how that verse is backing up your 'disagreeing'.

Disagree
1 Pet 1:23

You disagree about what? That we have a new spirit after we accept Christ? Or that we still struggle with sin after that time?
1 Peter 1:23 is a good verse, but it hardly talks about either issue. All it's talking about is the assurance Christians have once they are born again. In essence, once we are regenerated, we can be assured that he who began a good work in us will see it to completion. We know we will never have to face the second death.

Disagree
1 Pet 1:23

Sooo...are you telling me you are completely sin free? No nasty little thoughts slip in there? No short tempered replies to work mates or family members? No selfish responses at all? If you came face to face with Christ on this earth, you and he could walk side by side, sin free together? Is that what you're saying?

Bodies, souls, spirits are not the same things.
Who said they were?

It appears to me, you do not consider learning step by step what exactly occurs, and then mix what applies to one thing, to another thing, and call things that are not those things.

Body's die and become raised and glorified.
Souls are restored.
Spirits are born again with Gods Seed.

I am not waiting for my "spirit" to become SIN FREE.....It already IS.

Ah...sure. Your 'spirit' is good...but your soul made you do it?

Totally agree.

I have not objected to calling Jesus a man...

What you clearly call him is A HUMAN.

Seriously, you think the Lord Jesus, came out of the EARTH?

Or that HUMANS came forth out from Heaven?

Scripture CLEARLY teaches.
1) God was IN Heaven
2) Jesus came forth out from God.

I'm sorry...but...what?? Nothing you just said made sense. At all.

The Problem...
Only to a special few.

I'm trying to speak to you of holy and spriitual things, and you are speaking of MINDFUL and silly Worldly things.

I speak of THEE Lord God Almighty....and you somehow conclude that does not speak of the Godhead, because I do not call THEE Lord God Almighty "persons'.

Seems we are done.
I have an agenda going after Gods Understanding.....and you appear content with MINDful understanding.

Please read... Rom 8:7 (a)

Maybe you will figure out how the silly words you use when discussing spiritual things, is a glaring clue, we are not on the same page.

God Bless,
Taken

First thing we've agreed about I think. This really should go no further.
 

Taken

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Um....pardon me....but...isn't that what we do every time we read scripture? Aren't you saying, in effect, that it is "a fail" to try and understand scripture when we read it?
How then, do you propose we understand God if not by the very word he has given us for this purpose?

I have expressly stated "HOW" numerous times.

MEN read the word of God.
Many use their MIND to try and figure out what it MEANS....it's understanding.

Many don't bother reading, but sit in pews waiting for a Preacher to read a verse then tell them what he thinks it means.

Many do not bother to read or hear.

Many read philosophers ideas of what they have thought and pondered and mindfully think is the brilliant understanding of Gods word.

Many do not bother to Verify Gods word they hear....let alone Gods Understanding.

WHO has the understanding OF God or His OWN word?

Understanding of Gods OWN word, comes FROM GOD, to the Individual.

TO WHOM does God GIVE His (Spiritual) Understanding?

To Satan, who knows every word in scripture?

To philosophers who have a big following of men?

To Preachers who do not READ, but pick a verse, ..that an association has chosen as appropriate, for all the sects to be talking the same point...and write his sermon accordingly?

To men who have "got" their salvation, but their Bible is collecting Dust?

To men who decide what God means, with their Minds logical conclusions?

Do we not consider....the Carnal mind is Against God....as Scripture teaches?

Do we not consider....scripture that teaches to beware of philosophies of men?

Does the man who reads, re-reads, studies, compares, reads, and seeks God for His spiritual understanding.....Have God withhold His Understanding?.....After THAT is precisely what Scripture teaches?

God Bless,
Taken
 

Enoch111

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I don't think we are taken into the 3rd Heaven for certain because that is God's Throne and His Holy of Holies.
Why not? "In my Father's house" is nothing less than God's Heaven, the third heaven, where He is seated on His throne, and Christ is seated on His throne at the right hand of the Father.

If Christians would simply remember that the Resurrection/Rapture is for the PERFECTION AND GLORIFICATION of the saints, they would have no problem understanding that (1) all the saints who have passed on are presently in Heaven and (2) all the saints at the Rapture will also be in Heaven. Heaven is our eternal home, and more precisely, the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

What did Stephen say to Christ before he died? "Lord Jesus receive my spirit". And where would his spirit be received other than in Heaven?

And before he said that, he also said this: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:56)
 
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Taken

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You think it immature, but for those who clearly see scripture saying that Christ became fully man, your insistance that he 'only looked like it', like some sort of cheap ruse so he could blend in with the locals, is the cheap shot, taking so much out of the incarnation and what it meant.

Passages?

Philippians 2:5–8 is perhaps the most descisive.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

You may say, "Ah ha! 'form' only means outward image!'...but does it?

We know that Christ was equal to God, that the fullness of diety dwelt in him:

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, -Colossians 2:9
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, -Colossians 1:19


So we can conclude that when Phillipians 2:6 talks about Christ having the "form" of God, it means, by 'form', that he was God. And if the same word is then used for him taking the 'form' of human, we must conclude that Christ was fully human, just as he was fully God. The only way you can ignore the correlation between the words and how the writer uses them, is if you try to argue that Christ was not also fully God, which the text outright states.

I have explained, given verses, for my position between "MAN" and "HUMAN".

It is not a mystery, the FORM is a BODY.

It is not a mystery, Jesus took upon Himself the FORM, God prepared for Him.

It is not a mystery, Jesus was SEEN by HUMAN MEN....."AS" a man, and CALLED a man.

It is not a mystery, Christ Jesus the Lord IS GOD in the Flesh.

It is not a mystery, GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

He did NOT BECOME A HUMAN, because He appeared "AS" a man.

It is not a mystery, HUMANS are forms "CREATED" out of DUST.

It is not a mystery, GOD, Christ, Jesus, the Lord, the Holy Spirit.....WERE NOT CREATED!
ARE NOT SPIRTS CREATED FROM DUST.

Christian Preachers teaching Jesus IS Human,
IS NOT what Scripture says...

If a man does not Understand Gods Spiritual Understanding....God is the one to Ask.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Heart2Soul

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Why not? "In my Father's house" is nothing less than God's Heaven, the third heaven, where He is seated on His throne, and Christ is seated on His throne at the right hand of the Father.

If Christians would simply remember that the Resurrection/Rapture is for the PERFECTION AND GLORIFICATION of the saints, they would have no problem understanding that (1) all the saints who have passed on are presently in Heaven and (2) all the saints at the Rapture will also be in Heaven. Heaven is our eternal home, and more precisely, the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

What did Stephen say to Christ before he died? "Lord Jesus receive my spirit". And where would his spirit be received other than in Heaven?

And before he said that, he also said this: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:56)
I can't answer why not....which is why I said "I don't think"....but somewhere along my studies I remember running across a teaching saying that the highest position in Heaven is what God occupies and He sits on His throne....Jesus will be seated next to Him after the Battle of Armageddon....then there will be others of high rank depending on their faith...the martyrs will be seated with Him....
I can't give a clear understanding of the 3rd Heaven because I am still researching it.
If you have any good study references you would like to share I would certainly read them! Thanks!
 
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Enoch111

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...the highest position in Heaven is what God occupies and He sits on His throne.
TRUE
Jesus will be seated next to Him after the Battle of Armageddon
FALSE. Jesus is presently seated at the right hand of the Father.
...then there will be others of high rank depending on their faith.
FALSE. There is no Scripture to support this.
...the martyrs will be seated with Him.
FALSE. There is no Scripture to support this.

Rather than read the writings of others and be misled, kindly invest in a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (KJB) and Nave's Topical Bible (KJB). Then go through every reference to "heaven" and "the heavens" and EXTRACT the truth directly from the Scriptures.

For the present, one passage should suffice.

REVELATION 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 
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Taken

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I can't answer why not....which is why I said "I don't think"....but somewhere along my studies I remember running across a teaching saying that the highest position in Heaven is what God occupies and He sits on His throne....Jesus will be seated next to Him after the Battle of Armageddon....then there will be others of high rank depending on their faith...the martyrs will be seated with Him....
I can't give a clear understanding of the 3rd Heaven because I am still researching it.
If you have any good study references you would like to share I would certainly read them! Thanks!

In brief...

I believe in High (3rd) Heaven, Gods Estate, Pure absolute Light, never subject to corruption, or darkness.

I believe the mid (2nd ) Heaven is the Estate of Holy Angels (was once the estate of all angels, until some were cast to earth, because of their corruption, and some holy angels that were on earth (as servants of God), but became corrupt on earth, thus, they also lost their first estate. (They ending up being cast into hell, in prison/chains).

I believe the lower (1st) Heaven is a firmament between earth and the higher heavens, created in the beginning. Gen 1.
The sky's, clouds, moon, that men can see, and have a glimpse of Gods works.
The lower heavens, a paradox of sorts...
A place where, fallen angels can roam, remembering WHAT they HAD, but can have no more, as they elected to become corrupt.
A place that mankind can SEE, (and through technology, even fly in planes and space ships and marvel at Gods wonderments)....and be comforted, that their Saved souls, departed out of their dead bodies, shall rise up to the 2nd heaven, more glorious than the 1st.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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