"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

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GodsGrace

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Which proves that the RCC is NOT "Christ's Church". The Mass clearly controverts the FINISHED work of Christ.
Who [Christ] needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb 10:10,14)

GodsGrace was of the opinion that the Council of Trent has no bearing on current Catholic doctrine. I just had to set her straight. All Catholic councils are deemed to be a part of Catholic "Sacred" or "Holy" Tradition. But as you can see from the above Scripture, Trent was totally off base, and so is the current Catholic sacrifice of the Mass.

Is that what I said??
The church will use Trent when it suits it.
But many things have changed since Trent...I don't believe we're to use Trent as a marker, this is what I meant.

Trent might still be valid,
and, it might not -- depending on what is being spoken of.
 

Enoch111

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Things have changed even from Vatican I.
Looks like you are naive and gullible after all. I quote from the current Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.


This is exactly what I said and what Trent said. The Mass is a literal re-sacrifice of Christ daily.
 
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CoreIssue

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Oh. As to charity,,, of course the N.T. teaches charity in the sense that you state.
But the literal translation is love...
Faith, Hope and Charity.

Which will we still have in heaven?
Not faith, it will not be necessary.
Not hope, it will not be necessary.
But charity will be present even in heaven...not the charity of helping others, but charity as meant by the N.T. writers....love.

Here are the verses..

Charity

( 1 Corinthians 13 ), the rendering in the Authorized Version of the word which properly denotes love, and is frequently so rendered (always so in the Revised Version). It is spoken of as the greatest of the three Christian graces ( 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13). ).


I found this which explains it well...

Charity | Christian concept
1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tonguesa]">[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,b]">[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Everything you posted talks about love. It is not the definition of charity.

 

ScottA

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This isn't about a "confounding of language" - but perversion of Biblical doctrines.
You saying the cause is not the effect, again just shows your lack of understanding the whole truth.

Nonetheless, the cause and the effect for both events are the same. And Who is in control - men, you say?

Not men, but God.
 
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CoreIssue

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So only born again Christians are going to heaven?
No. So are the saved of OT Israel, gentiles who came to God during OT Israel, before OT Israel, old and new testament who came to God without hearing the gospel or Mosaic Law and Trib Saints.
 
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GodsGrace

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Looks like you are naive and gullible after all. I quote from the current Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.


This is exactly what I said and what Trent said. The Mass is a literal re-sacrifice of Christ daily.
The above is speaking about the body of Christ.
I won't argue with you...I'm not here to defend the catholic church...
I'll leave that up to BoL.

Read it carefully...

1357
We offer to God gifts of the creation...bread and wine.
Sometimes other gifts are offered too, like grape, bread,,,,
They become the body and blood of Jesus.

1365
When Jesus instituted communion, the eucharist, on Holy Thursday, He KNEW He was headed for His death. HE wanted that moment to be remembered throughout history...In establishing the Eucharist Jesus gives up His very body for us.

1366
The Eucharist is a sacrifice because it remembers Holy Thursday and what Jesus did for us. It RE-PRESENTS His sacrifice. It DOES NOT offer up the sacrifice again to God...a bloodless and thus NO SACRIFICE is offered to God.

1367
This is a catholic belief and I won't comment.
The CC believes the Holy Spirit is passed down from each generation of priests.

We've gone through this before.
I can't make you understand this...it takes a lot of study to understand these things.

I believe what Catholic priests tell me...those I can trust and don't just sing it to me.
 

GodsGrace

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1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tonguesa]">[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,b]">[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Everything you posted talks about love. It is not the definition of charity.
I give up.
I'm not here to teach you.

You might want to check the translation of
carita in latin and/or greek
 

GodsGrace

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No. So are the saved of OT Israel, gentiles who came to God during OT Israel, before OT Israel, old and new testament who came to God without hearing the gospel or Mosaic Law and Trib Saints.
What about some guy living in the jungles of South America?
Can HE be saved?
I refer you to Romans 1::19-20
 

GodsGrace

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That does not make it Biblical.
This is going to be my last post on this...
It's exactly biblical...

Charity [N] [T]

( 1 Corinthians 13 ), the rendering in the Authorized Version of the word which properly denotes love, and is frequently so rendered (always so in the Revised Version). It is spoken of as the greatest of the three Christian graces ( 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13). ).


source: Charity - Easton's Bible Dictionary Online


Charity, in Christian thought, the highest form of love, signifying the reciprocal love between God and man that is made manifest in unselfish love of one’s fellow men. St. Paul’s classical description of charity is found in the New Testament (I Cor. 13). In Christian theology and ethics, charity (a translation of the Greek word agapē, also meaning “love”) is most eloquently shown in the life, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ. St. Augustine summarized much of Christian thought about charity when he wrote: “Charity is a virtue which, when our affections are perfectly ordered, unites us to God, for by it we love him.” Using this definition and others from the Christian tradition, the medieval theologians, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, placed charity in the context of the other Christian virtues and specified its role as “the foundation or root” of them all.

Although the controversies of the Reformation dealt more with the definition of faith than with either hope or charity, the Reformers identified the uniqueness of God’s agāpe for man as unmerited love; therefore, they required that charity, as man’s love for man, be based not upon the desirability of its object but upon the transformation of its subject through the power of divine agāpe.

Modern philosophical discussions of charity have compared it to other terms and concepts of love, notably to erōs, which is understood as desire or yearning.

source: Charity | Christian concept

In our modern language charity means what you're referring to...in bible language it means love.
 

CoreIssue

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This is going to be my last post on this...
It's exactly biblical...

Charity [N] [T]

( 1 Corinthians 13 ), the rendering in the Authorized Version of the word which properly denotes love, and is frequently so rendered (always so in the Revised Version). It is spoken of as the greatest of the three Christian graces ( 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13). ). By the way that that


source: Charity - Easton's Bible Dictionary Online


Charity, in Christian thought, the highest form of love, signifying the reciprocal love between God and man that is made manifest in unselfish love of one’s fellow men. St. Paul’s classical description of charity is found in the New Testament (I Cor. 13). In Christian theology and ethics, charity (a translation of the Greek word agapē, also meaning “love”) is most eloquently shown in the life, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ. St. Augustine summarized much of Christian thought about charity when he wrote: “Charity is a virtue which, when our affections are perfectly ordered, unites us to God, for by it we love him.” Using this definition and others from the Christian tradition, the medieval theologians, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, placed charity in the context of the other Christian virtues and specified its role as “the foundation or root” of them all.

Although the controversies of the Reformation dealt more with the definition of faith than with either hope or charity, the Reformers identified the uniqueness of God’s agāpe for man as unmerited love; therefore, they required that charity, as man’s love for man, be based not upon the desirability of its object but upon the transformation of its subject through the power of divine agāpe.

Modern philosophical discussions of charity have compared it to other terms and concepts of love, notably to erōs, which is understood as desire or yearning.

source: Charity | Christian concept

In our modern language charity means what you're referring to...in bible language it means love.
The bible never says charity means love. Associated, yes, not equivalent.

Even your postings agree withe me.

By the way, I bought a Zonderans topical bible back in the seventies.
 

BreadOfLife

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I beg to differ.
I site remarrieds and communion.
I know, you're going to say this isn't a doctrine.
WHAT!!!
There is Doctrine and there is DISCIPLINE.

An example of this is the discipline of a celibate priesthood. Theoretically - this can change - however, I doubt it.
Not eating meat on Fridays used to be a YEAR-LONG thing - and now it is observed only on Fridays during Lent.

The Real Presence is a matter of DOCTRINE - not discipline and can never change.
Doctrine NEVER changes or is "done away" with in the Catholic Church.
 

GodsGrace

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The bible never says charity means love. Associated, yes, not equivalent.

Even your postings agree withe me.

By the way, I bought a Zonderans topical bible back in the seventies.
I have a topical section in my Open Bible, NASB.
I hardly ever use it.
Sounds like we've been saved about the same amount of time...
 

GodsGrace

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There is Doctrine and there is DISCIPLINE.

An example of this is the discipline of a celibate priesthood. Theoretically - this can change - however, I doubt it.
Not eating meat on Fridays used to be a YEAR-LONG thing - and now it is observed only on Fridays during Lent.

The Real Presence is a matter of DOCTRINE - not discipline and can never change.
Doctrine NEVER changes or is "done away" with in the Catholic Church.
Yeah BoL, I knew you'd say this.
But address the problem the CC is having about giving communion to remarrieds.
Is THIS a change in doctrine?
If NOT, then why are so many priests upset about this?
And why are the liberal ones happy about it?
 

BreadOfLife

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Which proves that the RCC is NOT "Christ's Church". The Mass clearly controverts the FINISHED work of Christ.
Who [Christ] needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb 10:10,14)

GodsGrace was of the opinion that the Council of Trent has no bearing on current Catholic doctrine. I just had to set her straight. All Catholic councils are deemed to be a part of Catholic "Sacred" or "Holy" Tradition. But as you can see from the above Scripture, Trent was totally off base, and so is the current Catholic sacrifice of the Mass.
WRONG.
If your sect changes its doctrines - then you know it's NOT the Church founded by Christ.

As for Christ's Sacrifice being an ETERNAL one - YOU don't seem to be able to wrap your mind around that one . . .

Rev. 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Heb. 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.