"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

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Dave L

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Yup - and there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines while ALL claiming to have the "Truth".
YOU said that "MOST" of them had - in their CREEDS - that the Papacy was the Antichrist.

NOW - can you show me tens of thousands of Protestant creeds that state this?
OR - would you care to REVISE your bogus claim?
Despite the sordid view you have of Christ's body, there remains unity throughout Christendom through the Ecumenical Creeds. Only obscure sects divide off from these documents.
 

CoreIssue

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Many think the papacy was the Antichrist from the 10th century on. Received a deadly wound in the French Revolution. And the deadly wound being healed in 1929 when they restored the Vatican to sovereign statehood. Pretty interesting stuff.......
But not Biblical.

The deadly wound of Revelations killed that king, Alexander the Great.

He will not be reincarnated, so it is referring to the true king, the demon in him.

The description of the AC matches that of Alexander.
 

amadeus

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Oops.
3 years younger than you.
But I feel like I'm 40.
OK. 50...
I understand the feeling, but I cannot play tennis anymore. I was certainly still playing when I was 40. I had probably stopped by 50 but even that was not due to a physically inability. Tennis was the only sport I was reasonably good at and so now it is the one that I really miss these days.

The heart I would guess is where some feel younger or older. Knowing God makes a big and decisive difference in this feeling.
 
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Dave L

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But not Biblical.

The deadly wound of Revelations killed that king, Alexander the Great.

He will not be reincarnated, so it is referring to the true king, the demon in him.

The description of the AC matches that of Alexander.
Again, scripture is to one a giant Rorschach Test where to another it is a life line for survival.
 

CoreIssue

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After distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist.
In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too).THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST.

There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often at the cost of martyrdom.
The bible differentiates between an anti Christ and The Anti Christ.

Christianity owes Catholicism nothing but rejection and trying to bring you the truth.
 

Phoneman777

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I really would like to understand better why some are so mad at the CC. Let them believe what they will --- why do you care so much? Those that will be saved, will be saved - even if the doctrine they follow is not correct in our view. Not every Protestant is saved either...even though we believe WE are right.

I'll answer to each of your bullets above:

1. The Catholic church does not believe in the substitutionary atonement theory.
Not every Protestant does either. I'll can be corrected by @BreadOfLife but I do believe it approves of the Payment Theory; Jesus paid the price so that we could be freed from the sting of death and our bondage to satan.

2. The cc believes God forgives sin. It does require that mortal sins are forgiven.
Venial sins can be forgiven directly by God. Priests do believe that some kind of absolution is necessary...it could even be communal. There's a reason for the mortal sin being spoken to a priest, but it's complicated.

3. You're correct here. I don't agree with the scripture they use for proof texts for purgatory; but, again, what do we care? The ultimate destination is heaven and no one really knows too much about purgatory...they're position has changed a lot regarding this place.

4. I don't care for the system of indulgences. I will say this...they are NOT paid for. I do wonder when the cc will end this practice, which, to me, is one of the worst.

As to communion. Do we believe He's present?
In a way different from all other times?
Is that different from the "Real Presence"?
Why it matters is because the most dire warning in all of Scripture is to not accept the Mark of the Beast (Antichrist) and only by identifying the Beast (Antichrist) will we be able to heed that warning.

In Catholicism, it was Christ's life, not His death, that provides forgiveness and grace to the sinner through the intercession of the papacy. Christ's death meant nothing. By this, millions of Catholics are erroneously led to look to the CC for these, and not to the "throne of grace" alone, as taught in Scripture. They are led to look to the church "instead of Christ", "in behalf of Christ", "in place of Christ", "for Christ" ("Anti-Christ") instead of bypassing the church and going directly to Christ.
  • Do you think Protestant Reformers identified the papacy as Antichrist simply for the sake of slinging mud?
  • Did they do so simply because they were rebels at heart who had finally found a cause?
  • Did they seek to be subversive simply for the sake of being subversive?
  • Or, is it possible the Holy Spirit revealed this through the Scriptures to them for reasons which you yourself are perhaps unable to explain or unwilling to consider?
Q. Can you explain how they proved the "restrainer" of 2 Thessalonians was "the pagan Roman Empire" and not what modern prophecy teachers claim it is: the "Holy Spirit filled church" or some other "agent of holiness"?

Q. Can you explain how they proved the papacy, not Antiochus Epiphenes, was the Little Horn of Daniel 7, Daniel 8, the "king of the North" in Daniel 11, the Beast of Revelation 13, the Whore of Revelation 17?

Q. Can you explain how they proved the 70 Weeks of Daniel lasted ONLY SEVENTY WEEKS - without any insertion of a 2,000 year gap - and expired in 34 A.D., exactly 490 years after Artaxerxes issued his decree which is found in the book of Ezra?

Q. Can you explain how they proved that Christ, not Antichrist, is the subject of the entire prophecy of those 70 Weeks?

Q. Can you explain how they proved that the ideas of Jesuits Alcazar and Ribera - Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism respectively - were false ideas and denounced them into obscurity for over 300 years, only now to be resurrected and touted as "Biblical truth" today by Protestants who haven't the slightest clue or care about why the God-ordained Protestant Reformation took place?
 
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Phoneman777

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Any Catholic who joins the Freemasons is automatically excommunicated. Pope Francis prefers to eat with homeless rather than big shots, and has washed the feet of prisoners in jail. Sorry that disturbs you. Catholics who didn't like Vatican II changes were the liberals because the changes were not radical enough. That was over 50 years ago and you weren't even born yet. Just because a pope communicates with atheists does not mean atheism is endorsed, that is plain stupid.
If you are going to be critical of Vatican II teachings, you should know what they are instead of adopting blind prejudice from ignorant anti-Catholics.

Why don't you pick one from this list, and make an INFORMED criticism: Documents of the Second Vatican Council


G_016_Calles.jpg

President Plutarco Calles, center, came to power to execute
the Masonic plan to destroy the Church (late 1920's)


G_016_Persecution2.jpg


The world ignored the Calles' government massacre of Mexican Catholics

G_016_Persecution3.jpg



"...Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion..."
Declaration on Masonic Associations Nov 26, 1983

Yet anti-Catholics today still make the charge of Freemasonry in the Church.
A few Catholics sacrificed in order to advance the deception is inconsequential "collateral damage". Of course the papacy runs Freemasonry worldwide. The esoteric doctrines of BOTH organizations are Luciferian and you both hold the SAME LUCIFERIAN DOCTRINES.

Freemasonry was the means by which papal agents were able to infiltrate Protestantism:


 

GodsGrace

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Most that I've read think General Berthier's capture of the pope in the French Revolution was the deadly wound. And the healing of it happened in 1929 when the Vatican received sovereign statehood status.
Pretty weird stuff.
 
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epostle

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The bible differentiates between an anti Christ and The Anti Christ.

The Bible tells us of the spirit of anti-Christ in 1 John 4, 2 John 1. which you are trying to negate.

Christianity owes Catholicism nothing but rejection and trying to bring you the truth.

That statement is contradictory and self defeating.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

Anti-authority and anti-institutional Christians are forced to deny Protestant scholars and invent their own Bible origin fantasies contrary to known and accepted facts.

And books such as Barnabas and 1 and 2 Clement were considered Scripture by many at the same time (for example, the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus). Of the 27 New Testament books, 14 were not mentioned at all until around 200 A.D., including Acts, 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Colossians.

On what grounds, then, can we receive the Canon today except on the authority of the Church in the 5th century? These facts cause insuperable problems for Protestantism and its guiding principle of “Scripture Alone,” but are not a difficulty in the least for Catholics, who believe in Tradition, Church Authority, and development – all crucial elements in the very human process of selection of the biblical Canon.
(denial of the facts is the easiest way out for some people)

It is plain silly (not to mention insufferably arrogant) to assert, as did Luther and especially Calvin, that the knowledge of what books constitute Scripture is attained simply by an intuitive and subjective inkling within each Spirit-filled person. If the early Church had such a difficult time determining what was and was not Scripture, how could Calvin 15 centuries later claim that it was altogether simple for him and every other sincere Christian?!

The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph. 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed which grows into a tree (Mt. 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and Doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning. It is impossible to claim that no development occurred in Church history, or that it ceased after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century, etc. (all arbitrary human traditions). The Bible is not absolutely clear in every part, and requires the developing wisdom of the Church.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
The Doctrine of the Trinity developed from the Councils of Nicae, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon and IS ACCEPTED BY PROTESTANTS, CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX and you think the Catholic Church should be rejected.

I get that from JW's, SDA's and other post-enlightenment cults who reject the authority of the Church that proclaimed the Trinity before there was a Bible.



th-id-OIP-kz-EN-7es8-VV1-rew-Dhuauw-Ha-E0-w-300-h-195-c-7-o-5-dpr-1-2.jpg
 
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BreadOfLife

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You mean perversions like:
"All have sinned" is perverted to mean "all except Mary"..
Time for a Bible and Linguistics lesson . . .

Matt. 2:3 says that Herod was "troubled" by the news he received from the Magi - and "ALL of Jerusalem along with him"
Really?? ALL the babies in Jerusalem were "troubled"?? Every toddler in town was "troubled"??

"ALL" have sinned does NOT include ALL babies or toddlers or the severely retarded - or JESUS Himself who was fully man.
This is inclusive language - not literal, Einstein . . .
"Christ was offered once" is perverted to mean "Christ is offered twice a day in the Mass"..
Christ DID die once, but his sacrifice is ETERNAL.
A point that I have already proven repeatedly (Heb. 7:25, Rev. 13:8).
"Do not pray using vain repetition" is perverted to mean "Rosary is legit".
JESUS Himself prayed repeatedly in the Garden of Gethsemane, Einstein (Matt. 26:44)
Jesus NEVER condemned repetitious prayer. He condemned the VAIN, repetitious babbling that the pagans did to their gods.

- We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the exact same prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”
- Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact same prayer, “God's love endures forever”.
- In Dan. 3:56-88 we read the exact same prayer for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is FAR more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary . . .


Do your HOMEWORK . . .
"Call no man father" is perverted to mean "the priest is our spiritual father".
REALLY??

- In Exod 21:20 - GOD Himself commands us to "Honor your FATHER and mother."
- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

STUDY your Bible, Einstein . . .
"Sabbath is Saturday" is perverted to mean "Sunday is...a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." .
In Col. 2:16, we read where St. Paul tells us, “Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or SABBATH.”

In the NT, we find that the Apostles and the early Christians worshiped and broke bread (celebrated the Mass) on the FIRST day of the week, Sunday (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10).
Sunday became our day for observing the Third Commandment because it symbolizes the new creation that was ushered in by Christ's Resurrection - the Lord's Day.
"There is ONE Mediator...the Man Christ Jesus" is perverted to mean "Mary, the priesthood, and saints are necessary for mediation".
Actually – this is a BIG FAT LIE.

In the Catholic Church there is only ONE Mediator between God and Man – the Man Jesus Christ.
However – ALL are called to be INTERCESSORS.
James 5:16
commands us to "PRAY FOR ON ANOTHER" - along with other verses (1 John 5:16).

Revelation 5:8 shows the saints in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the SAME thing.


"Flee fornication" is perverted to mean "rape and molest as many children as your priestly hands allow".

Really??

What’s the limit on rape and molestation on your Protestant sects??
Statistics show a much HIGHER volume than in the Catholic Church, Einstein.

What complete HYPOCRISY . . .

Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis : NPR

Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics

There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy

 

BreadOfLife

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Fruit of does not mean the same as.
WRONG AGAIN.

Jesus pretty much DEFINES what True Faith is in Mark 12:29-31.
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

The ENTIRE Gospel message of faith centers on these TWO Commandments.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works.
You cannot have one without the other.
 

BreadOfLife

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Despite the sordid view you have of Christ's body, there remains unity throughout Christendom through the Ecumenical Creeds. Only obscure sects divide off from these documents.
Wanna BET??
MANY
of your doctrines differ on ESSENTIAL matters - and are as different as Day and Night . . .

- SOME
Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
- Some
believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
- Some
believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
- Some
believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
- Some
believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
- Some
believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
- Some
believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
- Some
believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
- Some
believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
- MOST believe in contraception, while others do not– and the list goes on.

This is the tragedy of the spiritual pride of your Protestant Fathers.
The truth was up for grabs - and everybody claimed that the Holy Spirit "LED" them to this confusion . . .
 
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CoreIssue

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WRONG AGAIN.

Jesus pretty much DEFINES what True Faith is in Mark 12:29-31.
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."

The ENTIRE Gospel message of faith centers on these TWO Commandments.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works.
You cannot have one without the other.

Belief and faith are components that lead to salvation.

Salvation produces good works as fruit.
 

BreadOfLife

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Most Evangelicals look for a future Antichrist and don't think the Papacy is he. But if you are interested, google Antichrist Papacy or something like that. There is plenty of interesting discussion centered on it. Also, the Protestants thought that Islam along with the Papacy formed the complete picture.
Yes - everybody KNOWS that Google is the source of ALL truth . . .
Good Grief - get a LIFE.
 

BreadOfLife

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Belief and faith are components that lead to salvation.
Salvation produces good works as fruit.
NOT according to Jesus and James.
Faith is worthless without love (work/charity).

Belief is NOT faith. James tells us that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19).
Are YOU saying that they have "Faith"??

Faith is a marriage of Belief + Works.
That's why Paul refers to it as faith WORKING through love (Gal. 5:6).
 
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