Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

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101G

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The altar mentioned is the altar of incense in Heaven.

REVELATION 8
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast itinto the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.


And the blood of Christ which was shed on earth was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven. There is a tabernacle, a Holy Place, and a Mercy Seat in Heaven "not made with hands". Along with an altar of incense.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Heb 9:11,12)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 11:24)

You should take some time to study the matter THOROUGHLY instead of continuing on with your inaccurate and uninformed statements.
No, I don't think so, because prayer was offere, but these saint was slain, and blood was given. prayer are very diffrent offering. so please show where there is blood in heaven, and who and what it is for?.
 

Enoch111

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I don't believe there will be a tribulation in the way you describe it.
It is not the way I describe it but the way God describes it. And you are quite mistaken about the wrath of God ALREADY being manifested. We are living in the Day of Grace -- the Gospel Age -- and God is reserving His wrath for the future. That is why sin and evil are being permitted to abound.

However, unless you are prepared to study this matter properly and directly from Scripture, you will not understand the truth, and believe that it is all a matter of personal opinions. You even ignored the Scripture I presented and avoided its clear implication.
 

Enoch111

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No, I don't think so, because prayer was offered, but these saint was slain, and blood was given. prayer are very different offering. so please show where there is blood in heaven, and who and what it is for?.
As I said, you are uninformed about all this, so your first priority is to get down to some serious study instead of denying what Scripture affirms. That is no way to arrive at God's truth.
 

Truth

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It's finally happened!
Regardless of the TV prophets, people are leaving the belief of a pre-trib rapture by leaps and bounds.
Entire denominations are shifting to a belief that the Day of the Lord, whenever that may be, is the rapture as well.
Debates are sure to arise, especially from the pre-trib camp with their die-hard followers.
But what is, is.

A belief that came in with a fury has burnt out.
Will this finally bring us all together?

I guess all that I can say is, If you are still here when Israel starts to offer a morning and evening lamb on the Temple Mount. we are already in the time of Jacobs Trouble, or the beginning of the Tribulation!
 

GodsGrace

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It is not the way I describe it but the way God describes it. And you are quite mistaken about the wrath of God ALREADY being manifested. We are living in the Day of Grace -- the Gospel Age -- and God is reserving His wrath for the future. That is why sin and evil are being permitted to abound.

However, unless you are prepared to study this matter properly and directly from Scripture, you will not understand the truth, and believe that it is all a matter of personal opinions. You even ignored the Scripture I presented and avoided its clear implication.
I don't believe in personal opinion.
I've studied it enough to know what I know,,,I just haven't studied what others believe about this because from what I've read, Jesus returns ONE TIME,not two times. In order for your belief to be correct, He'd have to return two times.

As to ignoring scripture...no I don't ignore anything.
I gave you the scripture I believe is the correct interpretation...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The same verses you used to prove your point.

I also explained about how this is a new concept and was not known before.
This is important even though you may not believe so.
Were prior theologians dumb to not see what was seen just a mere 200 years ago?

I also posted a link describing perfectly what I understand "taken away" means.

The unfortunate were taken away...just as one poster likened it to Noah...the unbelievers were taken away from earth.
Noah and his family were left on earth.
And so it was for many in the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.
The fortunate ones were left to live their life. The unfortunate were "taken away" to their death.

I can't add much more to this discussion, and, as a habit, I don't go on about something ad infinitum.
 

101G

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The altar mentioned is the altar of incense in Heaven.

REVELATION 8
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast itinto the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.


And the blood of Christ which was shed on earth was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven. There is a tabernacle, a Holy Place, and a Mercy Seat in Heaven "not made with hands". Along with an altar of incense.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Heb 9:11,12)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 11:24)

You should take some time to study the matter THOROUGHLY instead of continuing on with your inaccurate and uninformed statements.
BY, BY, BY, his own blood he entered.

now supportive scripture,
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

see, if he rose with blood he would have NATURAL life. for the blood is the LIFE of the FLESH, see Lev 17:13.

understand if he rose with blood, he then was only resuscitated, and not resurrected.

now do you understand?.
 

CoreIssue

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It is not the way I describe it but the way God describes it. And you are quite mistaken about the wrath of God ALREADY being manifested. We are living in the Day of Grace -- the Gospel Age -- and God is reserving His wrath for the future. That is why sin and evil are being permitted to abound.

However, unless you are prepared to study this matter properly and directly from Scripture, you will not understand the truth, and believe that it is all a matter of personal opinions. You even ignored the Scripture I presented and avoided its clear implication.

It is the bowels of wrath in Revelations. No other mention.
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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I looked, and the only study I could find on this was one from 2016, where it showed those who believed in a literal Pre-tribulation rapture were still the single largest group by far. Are you quoting the Rollo Tamasi Times, or what? :)

Btw, I'm not a Pre-Tribulationist. I'm Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath. But I'm curious where you are getting your information from.

"One-third of American Protestant pastors believe that Christians will be raptured as the end times begin, according to a new study from LifeWay Research. Christianity Today reports that the survey of 1,000 pastors found that few people agree about the specifics of the apocalypse.

LifeWay vice president Scott McConnell said, “Most people want their pastor to preach about the Book of Revelation and the end of the world. But that’s a complicated task. Pastors and the scholars they cite often disagree about how the end times will unfold.”

According to the survey, 36 percent of Protestant senior pastors believe in pretribulation rapture, or Christians being taken up to heaven to meet Jesus. This is the picture of the apocalypse most depicted in pop culture, such as the “Left Behind” series.

However, another large group of pastors (25 percent) argue that the rapture is not a literal concept. Other smaller groups believe that the rapture will occur after tribulation (18 percent), the rapture has already happened (1 percent), that the rapture will take place during the tribulation (4 percent), before the wrath of God comes down on earth (4 percent), or none of these possibilities (8 percent)."
Have you ever read the Rollo Tamasi Times?
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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The dominant refutation of it for me is His statement that "where the body is, there will the eagles gather." (Luke 17:37). I came to realize He was using an earthly analogy to equate eagles with the angels of God, and "the body" with the body of Christ that will be gathered unto Him before His wrath begins. The entire set of analogies in Luke 17:26-36 is about God delivering His people out before destruction came, thus it would be unnatural to have this expression mean anything else in context.
ooh, another Bible scholar in out midst.
since we're all scholars, who is there to listen?
 
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bbyrd009

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ooh, another Bible scholar in out midst.
since we're all scholars, who is there to listen?
lol. imo vultures fits a lot better there? looks like "vultures" in every other tranny besides Queenie's i guess. Plus imo it's pretty obvious "wherever there is a body, vultures gather," not eagles i don't think
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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I guess all that I can say is, If you are still here when Israel starts to offer a morning and evening lamb on the Temple Mount. we are already in the time of Jacobs Trouble, or the beginning of the Tribulation!
Doesn't matter to me, I'm on Jesus' side.
I can't lose.
 

Hidden In Him

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Have you ever read the Rollo Tamasi Times?
ooh, another Bible scholar in our midst.
since we're all scholars, who is there to listen?

"Ooh!" You apparently read The Hidden In Him Times, yes? :)

So what's wrong with my argument? See, the way we do this is, I present my case, and then you present your case which counters my argument, and then I counter your argument, and so on and so forth.

Simply designating who should be the talker and who should be the listener is kinda arbitrary, isn't it?
 

bbyrd009

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The dominant refutation of it for me is His statement that "where the body is, there will the eagles gather." (Luke 17:37). I came to realize He was using an earthly analogy to equate eagles with the angels of God, and "the body" with the body of Christ that will be gathered unto Him before His wrath begins. The entire set of analogies in Luke 17:26-36 is about God delivering His people out before destruction came, thus it would be unnatural to have this expression mean anything else in context.
once you have swallowed the premise anyway, ya

imo vultures fits a lot better there? looks like "vultures" in every other tranny besides Queenie's i guess. Plus imo it's pretty obvious "wherever there is a body, vultures gather," not eagles i don't think. Tbh imo an ambiguous word there is used on purpose, so that Cult of Sol adherents can continue to deceive themselves, "hide wisdom from the wise," etc
 

CoreIssue

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lol. imo vultures fits a lot better there? looks like "vultures" in every other tranny besides Queenie's i guess. Plus imo it's pretty obvious "wherever there is a body, vultures gather," not eagles i don't think
Luke 17:37 New International Version (NIV)
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”