CAUGHT UP???

thanks for your POST,
let's start at the last and work our way forward,

larry2 said:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

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one need to understand how it is used in context.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
caught up means "to come in POWER, of the Spirit" here,. Lets examine this word, G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.
1. to seize
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)

G138 αἱρέομαι haireomai (hai-reh'-om-ai) (Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ai; which is otherwise obsolete) v.
1. to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer
[probably akin to G142]
KJV: choose

Let's get all the scripture,
Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. SEE ABOVE G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo

read Gill commentery on Mattews 11:12: and understand what it says. when the Lord Jesus came, he came with POWER, read Gills, ok.

larry2 said:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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Gill
caught up together, is the POWER of the Holy Spirit in the new creation of the DEAD and the LIVING.

larry2 said:

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

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in or out of the body?. the point is in all these scriptures no one left the earth. example, John while on patmos, had a revelation in and out of the body. many say he was in heaven, well listen,
Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
HOLD IT, if John was in heaven why did he say, "he heard a voice from, from, from, heaven?". there are many verses like this in Revelation. yes, after it said in,
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter".

the first voice that spoke with him was here on earth, see Rev 1:9-12. it was the Lord Jesus in his Office of the Holy Ghost.

now let's get to the bread and butter of anyone being caught up. if i was you, I would have used,
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

now here as with Elijah and Enoch, God transported each one to a diffrent place. and "caught away" here is the same word G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)
Root(s): G138

larry2 said:

CAUGHT UP??? What???

The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise . .

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

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no one has ever gone up into heaven except He Who came down from it, the Son of Man
He alone is immortal, and dwells in unapproachable light
I will never leave you nor forsake you

Paul qualifies his "one," there in the Corinthians account; "whether in or out of the body, i don't know"
you can do the Thessalonians thing today!
and the Rev passage is not relevant to Rapture much anyway, is it?

anyway
you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up
right?

larry2 said:

CAUGHT UP??? What???

The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise . .

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

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Then there is the Rapture 'caught up', as in 1 Thessalonians 4.

bbyrd009 said:

no one has ever gone up into heaven except He Who came down from it, the Son of Man

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You have a major misunderstanding of this verse. So it might be hopeless to disabuse you of your error.

Just ask yourself ONE question: Did Stephen go to Heaven after he was martyred? If so, it means that at least one other person went to Heaven. Which totally shoots down your theory. And as a matter of fact COUNTLESS saints have gone to Heaven.

larry2 said:

Do you realize that this scripture represented heaven prior to Jesus dying?

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not sure your point here, sorry

larry2 said:

unto the spirits in prison. (Where was this?)

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out on the streets, every time He spoke to a soul imo

larry2 said:

(Paradise was in the lower parts of the earth?)

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nevermind where Paradise is imo, the point there is likely about the "today" in view of the fact that it should have taken them both at least two more days to die?

larry2 said:

(If paradise was in the lower parts of the earth, and Jesus took that captivity of man with Him, where is it now?)

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this is a moot Q to me wadr, which does not mean it is to you, so i would have to ask for clarification here, when you ask "where is IT now," are you referring to Paradise or captivity?

larry2 said:

2Co 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise . . Jesus not only is in heaven, but has others He took to heaven now with Him.

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you are relying on a vision wherein the author has already made very plain qualifying statements, "i don't know," so wadr you are now making statements of truth based upon a guy who has plainly stated that he does not know, and also that he was quite possibly having a vision? Wherein it can be noted that the point of the passage is not about anyone going anywhere anyway, note that there is no resolution to the "possibly the third heaven, wouldn't swear to that though" type language anyway; iow what was even the point of drawing this image for us, of an unknown person going to an unknown place or say heaven even in a vision no less, but let's say for real, he actually went there and Paul is recording it, say--to what end?

Nothing happens after he "gets there," right? How is this a lesson on "boasting" in that case?

farouk said:

Then there is the Rapture 'caught up', as in 1 Thessalonians 4.

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ah yes, Ezekiel's "pillows" and "soft landings" and "flying like birds."

Enoch111 said:

Did Stephen go to Heaven after he was martyred?

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no, of course not. No one has ever gone up to heaven except He Who came down from it

Enoch111 said:

Which totally shoots down your theory.

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my theory, lol. ok

Enoch111 said:

And as a matter of fact COUNTLESS saints have gone to Heaven.

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ok, well just Quote one and then we can move on i guess, shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples of "...and Insert Father Figure Here, old and full of years, went to heaven to be with the Lord" or whatever right

larry2 said:

larry2 - Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

I like the idea of addressing one scripture, & remaining here until we absolve perceived problems with our understanding.

Can you explain why the words “Caught Up” needed to be changed? Using Bible Hub with their different versions of the Bible, there was not one of them using “Harpadzo, Harpazo, or Rapture” in Rev 12:5. Could this give us cause to suspect agenda changed to promote a different rendering by translators?

Let’s examine the man child said to have seized heaven by force. Who is he, or they? Where do we see them in heaven?

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (seized, or taken by force from God?) unto God, and to His throne.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

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first thanks for the response, second, I agree with you here, "Can you explain why the words “Caught Up” needed to be changed? Using Bible Hub with their different versions of the Bible, there was not one of them using “Harpadzo, Harpazo, or Rapture” in Rev 12:5. Could this give us cause to suspect agenda changed to promote a different rendering by translators?"
No, I cannot answer for the translators. but true it was no rapture, I agree with. but as to why they changed it I can't answer there.

now for Revelation chapter 12 concering the child,
harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.
1. to seize
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)

G138 αἱρέομαι haireomai (hai-reh'-om-ai) (Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ai; which is otherwise obsolete) v.
1. to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer
[probably akin to G142]
KJV: choose

the Child is the chosen of God, for the derivative of harpazo is G138 αἱρέομαι haireomai, meaning to prefer, choose. supportive scripture,
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

ELECT here is the hebrew word,
H972 בָּחִיר bachiyr (baw-cheer') n-m.
select.
[from H977]
KJV: choose, chosen one, elect.

I hope that helped.

Enoch111 said:

You have a major misunderstanding of this verse. So it might be hopeless to disabuse you of your error.

Just ask yourself ONE question: Did Stephen go to Heaven after he was martyred? If so, it means that at least one other person went to Heaven. Which totally shoots down your theory. And as a matter of fact COUNTLESS saints have gone to Heaven.

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first thanks for that reply.

second, I must agree with bbyrd009 here. our bro Stephen did not go to Heaven after he was martyred?. the bible said he fell asleep, just like all saints before him. scripture,
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. but he sleep in Christ.

now as for anyone else, that did just what our brother Stephen did, died. let's start with our brother Enoch. scripture,
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

so did Enoch die? let's check the record. staying in Hebrews chapter 11, if we keep on reading we get to,
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

yes Enoch died a natural death, here on earth.

the key to understanding this, Heb 11:5, "Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him

see that not "Found". because he was "TRANSLATED". let's see why he was not found because of his tranlation.
Translate: G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to transfer.
2. (literally) to transport.
3. (by implication) to exchange.
4. (reflexively) to change sides.
5. (figuratively) to pervert.
[from G3326 and G5087]
KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn
Root(s): G3326, G5087

definition #2, and #1. to transport, god moved him from one point on the planet to another. that's why he was not "FOUND".

101G said:

our bro Stephen did not go to Heaven after he was martyred?. the bible said he fell asleep, just like all saints before him

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You say Stephen did not go to heaven. Did you read the whole chapter before responding? And then read the beginning of the next chapter?

ACTS 7 & 8
55 But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Stephen actually saw with his own eyes the heavens opened and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Then he said to Christ "receive my spirit". Should it not be obvious to anyone that the spirit and soul of Stephen went directly to Heaven upon his death? "He fell asleep" is simply a euphemism for "he died in Christ" since we read about "those who sleep in Jesus". The body was buried but the soul and spirit went to Heaven.

Enoch111 said:

You say Stephen did not go to heaven. Did you read the whole chapter before responding? And then read the beginning of the next chapter?

ACTS 7 & 8
55 But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Stephen actually saw with his own eyes the heavens opened and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Then he said to Christ "receive my spirit". Should it not be obvious to anyone that the spirit and soul of Stephen went directly to Heaven upon his death? "He fell asleep" is simply a euphemism for "he died in Christ" since we read about "those who sleep in Jesus". The body was buried but the soul and spirit went to Heaven.

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Enoch, Enoch, Enoch, slow yourself down. just because the heavens was open don't mean you go to heaven. classic example. John was in the Spirit on the Lord day on the Island of patmos.

he didn't go to heaven, not his body, but was showned a visions. now how do I know this? listen,
Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. STOP..... he "heard" a voice .... "FROM", "FROM" heaven, but accord to many he was supposed to be in HEAVEN. so how can John who supposed to be in heaven heard a voice "from" heaven... are you getting this?.

now, many say John went to heaven, scripture, Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

now did the verse say come up to heaven, only a door was open... (smile). because the voice that spoke with John was ON EARTH. listen, Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. I suggest you read your commentary, especially Gill's

our spirit returned to God, JESUS who is Lord and God,. now may I ask a question, where is God?.... (smile). thank you. now concering our spirits, for the scriptures states,
Eccl 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?. now examine that scripture closley, where do it say the spirit go to heaven?, ... and please don't assume.

Now, you quoted, "He fell asleep" is simply a euphemism for "he died in Christ" since we read about "those who sleep in Jesus". now where is the Lord JESUS Spirit, GOD? his body is in Heaven seated on the throne, meaning in POWER, functioning as High Priest and Mediator, but where is his Spirit ... let's see, Read revelation 1:9-20, and one will quickly see him, JESUS, his Spirit here on earth, the Holy Spirit. Want to know how I know this right. I’ll tell you later.

Don’t you know that God is everywhere, read Ps 139:7-10. now to say that our brother Stephen went to heaven then God is 1. a Respecter of person, because some was left here on earth to be raise. 2. he’s a lair, God forbid. and here’ why. If everyone who died went straight to heaven there are no death in HEAVEN …. who’s up there DEAD? For the SCRIPTURE clearly states Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.... why, listen,

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence”.

So if you’re with the LORD and have not a body, the spirit without the body is DEAD. And since your spirit is with the LORD and as you said, if in heaven then that’s impossible, for you will already have had a body.

See how easy one can reprove false thinking.

bbyrd009 said:

ok, well just Quote one and then we can move on i guess, shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples of "...and Insert Father Figure Here, old and full of years, went to heaven to be with the Lord" or whatever right

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@Enoch111 , so are we done then?
@Enoch111