The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

Taken · Nov 14, 2018

Naomi25 said:
There is no division.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The Law and the Promise
[15] To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. [16] Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [17] This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [18] For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

[19] Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [20] Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

[21] Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [22] But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[23] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [24] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. [27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:15–29

Paul makes it pretty clear that in Christ Jesus we are all heirs of the Abrahamic promise.

To insist on this 'division' you are again reading into scripture what is not there.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Indeed, what Paul has worked hard to remove from scripture.
That is why I believe the Church will remain...that and Christ's reference to "not taking us out of the world". When Jesus comes in his second coming, all things will come to an end, and all his people...all people found in Christ...both Jews and Gentiles...will then be Raptured to him in the clouds. When reading the verses that talk of Jesus' return, all these events happen AT his return. All these divisions, separations, timelines etc, are inserts by people wanting to see their own end times theology in the passages. I have yet to be shown any scripture that backs their theories up.

I was speaking of Jesus' Division, clearly written IN Scripture.

You say there is NO Division, Jesus said there IS.

Didn't you Look UP Division IN Scripture before you answered?

Glory to God,
Taken

CoreIssue · Nov 14, 2018

Naomi25 said:
And absolutely none of that says that we must be in heaven to be "kept" from it. Was Noah in heaven? Was Lot?
By your own 'school of belief' there is a whole bunch of Jews who will be protected and 'kept' from trials in the last half of the Tribulation, no? Will they be taken to heaven? Nope...God'll do it on earth.
So....?

It says all on the earth will be tested. You say they will not. You just declared God a liar.

The Jews in Petra are tested for 3 1/2 years before being taken there. So your argument is false.

Noah was removed from the place of destruction, the land. The water was not part of the destruction.

Lot was removed from the plain, the place of destruction.

Tereo ek means out of, not in and through.

So you tell me how the Church to be on the earth but out of the testing?

How can Israel be restored if the church is still here?

Why is there absolutely no mention of church on the earth after the seventh church until the second coming?

Where did the Church candlestands go?

I look forward to your answers. Not just saying God can do it because od makes it very clear what will happen.

CoreIssue · Nov 14, 2018

Keraz said:
Your lengthy posting of word definitions had nary a scintilla of proof of a rapture.
But you blithely ignore my credible proofs.
Sad really, so blinded and deceived that no amount of Bible truth can convince you of your wrong beliefs.

I can't ignore what isn't there.

Naomi25 · Nov 14, 2018

Taken said:
Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

I was speaking of Jesus' Division, clearly written IN Scripture.

You say there is NO Division, Jesus said there IS.

Didn't you Look UP Division IN Scripture before you answered?

Glory to God,
Taken

Come now, context! This passage is hardly talking about a division between Israel and the Gentiles, and thus can be made into a case for the Rapture!
This is talking about the division between believers and unbelievers and the growing hostility between them. Nothing more.

Naomi25 · Nov 14, 2018

CoreIssue said:
It says all on the earth will be tested. You say they will not. You just declared God a liar.

Oh, calm your farm, I did no such thing. You probably wish I had, that would make it much easier to dismiss everything I say. But, whatever.
But...if we look throughout Revelation and at the phrase "those who dwell on the earth" (as in Rev 3:10, to whom the hour of testing is coming), we see that it is used repeatedly to describe rebellious mankind, not those belonging to God. Check it out:

They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” -Revelation 6:10

Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!” -Revelation 8:13

and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 11:10

and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. -Revelation 13:14

with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” -Revelation 17:2

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. -Revelation 17:8

I think one can make a fairly compelling arguement that says that this phrase is talking about only the wicked.

The Jews in Petra are tested for 3 1/2 years before being taken there. So your argument is false.

Isn't this the verse that speaks about this:

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. -Revelation 12:6

This says that they will be 'nourished'. And, clearly they are protected from the wrath of Satan, as he has to go and take out his frustration on the womans other offspring. So...how is this not being protected from something, while still being on planet earth??

Noah was removed from the place of destruction, the land. The water was not part of the destruction.

Seriously?? Don't you think that is stretching it just a little bit. Or, you know....like, to the moon and back? Water was NOT part of the destruction in "The Flood" event? They call it "The Flood". That's water. The water WAS the destruction. It covered the whole face of the earth. It killed every being on the planet except Noah and those on the ark. Who...were still on planet earth.

Lot was removed from the plain, the place of destruction.

Yes, yes he was.

Tereo ek means out of, not in and through.

So you tell me how the Church to be on the earth but out of the testing?

Well...I don't know about that.
téreó: τηρέω: I keep, guard, observe, watch over. (strongs 5083)
ek or ex: ἐκ, ἐξ: from out, out from among, from (strongs 1537)

So, it seems to me that there also could be a meaning of "guarding from" or "keeping from". Which changes it a bit. And yes, God most certainly can, if he chooses, put a hand of protection over us on this earth as he judges the rebellious. To say he cannot is to put limitations on God, which I don't think is wise.

How can Israel be restored if the church is still here?

Why would we need to be gone? Is God such a "man" that he cannot concentrate on 2 things at once? I say that with heavy sarcasm, as we know very well that is not the case. There is no reason that he cannot. Even were he to turn his attention more fully towards the Jews for a time, there is no reason the Church cannot be here. After all, it would only be the reverse of what has been happening now, with the Gentile Church exploding under his care, but only a trickle of Jewish believers coming in.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you can show any bible verses that tell us that the Church HAS to be gone for God to turn his attention back to the Jews. It's not there. And if it's not there, it's an assumption. And if it's an assumption, then your system is founded on shaky ground.

Why is there absolutely no mention of church on the earth after the seventh church until the second coming?

As I said to Enoch111: This is not proof, sorry. That's like saying "the book of James and Philemon don't mention the Holy Spirit, so he's not on earth in the believers then".
Or, that the word 'church' also doesn't appear in Titus, Hebrews and 1 & 2 Peter, therefore the Church must be "gone" then as well.
We see the word "Saints" used all throughout the NT, so the fact that it is used for believers in Revelation shouldn't be seen as a "special code" that the Church has been whisked away. And if there are believers there, it becomes, once again, only assumption that the Church as a whole was taken away, and that these new 'Saints', are somehow a different category of believer.

Where did the Church candlestands go?

I look forward to your answers. Not just saying God can do it because od makes it very clear what will happen.

The lampstands? They are the Churches. That's what Revelation tells us. So as long as the Church is on earth, here they remain also. See my point above, if you are, in fact, asking why they are not 'mentioned' again in Revelation.

CoreIssue · Nov 14, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Oh, calm your farm, I did no such thing. You probably wish I had, that would make it much easier to dismiss everything I say. But, whatever.
But...if we look throughout Revelation and at the phrase "those who dwell on the earth" (as in Rev 3:10, to whom the hour of testing is coming), we see that it is used repeatedly to describe rebellious mankind, not those belonging to God.

You're misquoting the verse. It does not say to whom the testing is coming. It says:
the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

There are no exceptions.

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. -Revelation 12:6

This says that they will be 'nourished'. And, clearly they are protected from the wrath of Satan, as he has to go and take out his frustration on the womans other offspring. So...how is this not being protected from something, while still being on planet earth??

These are believing Israel, not the Church.

Believing Israel before the rapture are church, so they were already raptured. So these come to believe after the rapture.

Plus they were tested during the first 3 1/2 years before they were taken to Petra.

Seriously?? Don't you think that is stretching it just a little bit. Or, you know....like, to the moon and back? Water was NOT part of the destruction in "The Flood" event? They call it "The Flood". That's water. The water WAS the destruction.

But the life in the water was not destroyed. Only the land life.

Genesis 6

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground.

It covered the whole face of the earth. It killed every being on the planet except Noah and those on the ark. Who...were still on planet earth.

Earth means dirt/soil only.

You do not dig deep enough in your studies to get all facts.

téreó: τηρέω: I keep, guard, observe, watch over. (strongs 5083)
ek or ex: ἐκ, ἐξ: from out, out from among, from (strongs 1537)

So, it seems to me that there also could be a meaning of "guarding from" or "keeping from". Which changes it a bit. And yes, God most certainly can, if he chooses, put a hand of protection over us on this earth as he judges the rebellious. To say he cannot is to put limitations on God, which I don't think is wise.

But it doesn't mean keeping from. It means out of, not in and through. Nowhere when used did that person remain in the place at issue. Nowhere.

Why would we need to be gone? Is God such a "man" that he cannot concentrate on 2 things at once? I say that with heavy sarcasm, as we know very well that is not the case. There is no reason that he cannot. Even were he to turn his attention more fully towards the Jews for a time, there is no reason the Church cannot be here. After all, it would only be the reverse of what has been happening now, with the Gentile Church exploding under his care, but only a trickle of Jewish believers coming in.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you can show any bible verses that tell us that the Church HAS to be gone for God to turn his attention back to the Jews. It's not there. And if it's not there, it's an assumption. And if it's an assumption, then your system is founded on shaky ground.

You want to challenge God's reasoning for what he is going to do? Read Job. It is answered in depth there.

As I said to Enoch111: This is not proof, sorry. That's like saying "the book of James and Philemon don't mention the Holy Spirit, so he's not on earth in the believers then".

We see the word "Saints" used all throughout the NT, so the fact that it is used for believers in Revelation shouldn't be seen as a "special code" that the Church has been whisked away.

ThatAnd if there are believers there, it becomes, once again, only assumption that the Church as a whole was taken away, and that these new 'Saints', are somehow a different category of believer.

Saint is also used in the OT. It means set apart for God. It is not limited to Church.

The lampstands? They are the Churches.

No they're not.

They are covenants holding the light of God's revelation via Israel, the church and the two witnesses. There was one for Israel with the seven lamps on it, and seven for the church and then the two witnesses are lampstands.

The lampstands are of the churches but not the churches. The lamps are the angels of the church's.

When the lampstands are gone the lamps remain. We see them repeatedly in revelations.

That's what Revelation tells us. So as long as the Church is on earth, here they remain also. See my point above, if you are, in fact, asking why they are not 'mentioned' again in Revelation.

They are gone but the lamps remain on the throne dias.

When Israel ceased to be the covenant nation the lampstand was removed and replaced by the seven. The seven will be replaced by the two.

To believe what you believe you have to totally dismiss the MK Revelations and Day of the Lord

Naomi25 · Nov 14, 2018

CoreIssue said:
You're misquoting the verse. It does not say to whom the testing is coming. It says:
the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

There are no exceptions.

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 3:10

It was a paraphrase, not a direct quote. Sorry, I didn't realize you needed me to be so strict to make my point.
But it doesn't change my point, which was a valid point, and you haven't given a biblical rebuff to. Saying "you're misquoting it" doesn't disprove how the bible itself gives us a definition of who "those who dwell on the earth" are. Verse after verse of this phrase pin-pointing it as those who are wicked, suggests to us that this phrase is reserved for them.
Also, if you are concerned about the "coming on the whole world" bit, I don't think that is reason, either, for a Church relocation. It is just telling us that the wicked all over the planet will be confronted with this 'trial'. It will not be at a specific location like Sodom. It will come on the 'whole world'.

These are believing Israel, not the Church.

Believing Israel before the rapture are church, so they were already raptured. So these come to believe after the rapture.

Plus they were tested during the first 3 1/2 years before they were taken to Petra.

That's totally not my point, which I think you know. The point is that God is keeping them safe from his judgements upon the nations (or so goes your own teaching) in this spot...which is on earth. So saying that God HAS to remove the Church to keep them safe from his judgements makes no sense.

But the life in the water was not destroyed. Only the land life.

Right. Of course. So...the fish prove the God has to remove the Church from the earth to protect people from judgements. Boats don't count in the flood, despite the boat design being God directed. It's all about the fish.

But it doesn't mean keeping from. It means out of, not in and through. Nowhere when used did that person remain in the place at issue. Nowhere.

But it does mean that, or at least it CAN mean that, just as much as it CAN mean what you claim it does, the Greek gives it that leeway in definition.
Except they did remain in place. You can talk about fish and land as much as you want, but the flood:

The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind.-Genesis 7:17–21

Now, sure, the fish escaped, but the rest of creation didn't. Now, if you want to persist in the claim that because Noah was taken "off land" he had been taken away from the judgement, what do we say about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? They were preserved IN the fire. And, as previously pointed out, Dispensationalists themeslves claim that the Jews will be preserved ON the earth during the last 3 and 1/2 years.

You want to challenge God's reasoning for what he is going to do? Read Job. It is answered in depth there.

No, I'm not. I was suggesting that you are hedging around that yourself. By saying that God cannot work on Israel with out the Church being gone, you are putting limitations in place that the bible doesn't. That's not wise, and certainly not called for.

Saint is also used in the OT. It means set apart for God. It is not limited to Church.

Never said it was, and my point wasn't that if we can find the word Saint elsewhere it changes the meaning. "Saint" is often used when speaking about Christians, or the elect, in more individual or personal settings, as in, what they have done for their faith, what they have endured or must endured.
My point, which you tidily stepped around, was that saying "the word Church is absent means the Church IS absent" doesn't hold water, and is therefore not a valid reason.

They are gone but the lamps remain on the throne dias.

When Israel ceased to be the covenant nation the lampstand was removed and replaced by the seven. The seven will be replaced by the two.

To believe what you believe you have to totally dismiss the MK Revelations and Day of the Lord

What scripture says they are gone but the lamps remain on the throne dias, please? I cannot see any.

No, I don't dismiss anything about the Millennial Kingdom of the Day of the Lord. I think the bible paints vivid, amazing pictures of them that are wonderful in their promise and look forward to their fulfilment very much. I just refuse to read into scripture what is not there to satisfy my need to hold onto a system that has so many holes in it, it could be a shower head.

Vexatious · Nov 14, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Oh, what absolute rubbish! I have never heard anything that ridiculous in my life! As I've said before...I know, and have known many 'pretribbers' and not only haven't they been liars, but they've been incredible, wonderful people of God I only hope I can live up to.

I point out in post after post of outright lies of pretribbers. In the post that you replied to, I pointed out three of their lies concerning their claim Rev 3:10, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation..." teaches the pre-trib rapture. Let me enumerate them for you:

1) Pretribbers lie in claiming "keep", τηρέω, means raptured. It means watched or guarded, which implies staying, not leaving.
2) Pretribbers lie and claim what Jesus says to the church of Sardis applies to our day. Sardis was a First-century church, not a 21st-century church, so it was a First-century temptation Sardis was guarded from.
3) Pretribbers teach the lie that the churches in Revelation are church ages, not First-century churches.. And, they claim Laodicea, not Sardis, represents the last church age. So, they lie in the context of their own lies in applying what Jesus said to Sardis to our time.

You or they are free to show that I'm wrong in calling pretribers liars, but all you can do make baseless judgement against me. All they can do is feign indignation against me for calling them out for lying. There are incredibly wonderful Mormons, that doesn't make what they teach not lies. And, no non-Mormon church would have any tolerance for Mormon lies within the church.

Pretribbers are liars. They have here ever opportunity here to prove their not...

CoreIssue · Nov 14, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 3:10

It was a paraphrase, not a direct quote. Sorry, I didn't realize you needed me to be so strict to make my point.

Most of my life has been involved in things are words matter. They have to be accurate.

Maybe not the same for you, sure is for me.
But it doesn't change my point, which was a valid point, and you haven't given a biblical rebuff to. Saying "you're misquoting it" doesn't disprove how the bible itself gives us a definition of who "those who dwell on the earth" are. Verse after verse of this phrase pin-pointing it as those who are wicked, suggests to us that this phrase is reserved for them.

You are trying use verse of different meaning, different contexts and different uses to interpret Revelations 3:10. That is not valid.

Also, if you are concerned about the "coming on the whole world" bit, I don't think that is reason, either, for a Church relocation.

I covered the words meaning some of the verse says. So what you think does not override what the verses say and mean. You cannot invent your own word means and rules of grammar.

It is just telling us that the wicked all over the planet will be confronted with this 'trial'.

You just changed the verses. It is not limited too wicked only.

It will not be at a specific location like Sodom. It will come on the 'whole world'.

The whole world is the specific location.

That's totally not my point, which I think you know. The point is that God is keeping them safe from his judgements upon the nations (or so goes your own teaching) in this spot...which is on earth. So saying that God HAS to remove the Church to keep them safe from his judgements makes no sense.

It does not say upon of the nations. It says upon all people living on the earth.

The whole earth is the place at issue. You cannot be on the earth it out of the earth at the same time.

That your issue is you don't want accept that reality.

Right. Of course. So...the fish prove the God has to remove the Church from the earth to protect people from judgements. Boats don't count in the flood, despite the boat design being God directed. It's all about the fish.

No, it is about what God is judging and destroying. Do not equate the flood and the tribulation. They are different.

But it does mean that, or at least it CAN mean that, just as much as it CAN mean what you claim it does, the Greek gives it that leeway in definition.

There is no leeway. Out of never means in and through nothing.
Except they did remain in place.

It did not.

You can talk about fish and land as much as you want, but the flood:
The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind.-Genesis 7:17–21

Genesis 7:17-21 New International Version (NIV)
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.a]">[a]b]">[b] 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Now, sure, the fish escaped, but the rest of creation didn't. Now, if you want to persist in the claim that because Noah was taken "off land" he had been taken away from the judgement, what do we say about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

They were not under god's judgment/testing. Different situation.
They were preserved IN the fire.

So what?
And, as previously pointed out, Dispensationalists themeslves claim that the Jews will be preserved ON the earth during the last 3 and 1/2 years.

No, I'm not. I was suggesting that you are hedging around that yourself. By saying that God cannot work on Israel with out the Church being gone, you are putting limitations in place that the bible doesn't. That's not wise, and certainly not called for.

And you are trying to have two covenants in operation at the same time.

Never said it was, and my point wasn't that if we can find the word Saint elsewhere it changes the meaning. "Saint" is often used when speaking about Christians, or the elect, in more individual or personal settings, as in, what they have done for their faith, what they have endured or must endured.

But even then, the word was never limited to Christian.

My point, which you tidily stepped around, was that saying "the word Church is absent means the Church IS absent" doesn't hold water, and is therefore not a valid reason.

Most assuredly does when Israel has taken over and the rapture has happened.

What scripture says they are gone but the lamps remain on the throne dias, please? I cannot see any.

No, I don't dismiss anything about the Millennial Kingdom of the Day of the Lord. I think the bible paints vivid, amazing pictures of them that are wonderful in their promise and look forward to their fulfilment very much. I just refuse to read into scripture what is not there to satisfy my need to hold onto a system that has so many holes in it, it could be a shower head.

No holes.

What you're doing is the one full of holes.

Taken · Nov 15, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Come now, context! This passage is hardly talking about a division between Israel and the Gentiles,

Context is good.

See post 106. Your text.
See post 117. The context I posted to.

and thus can be made into a case for the Rapture!

I do not have to prove the Rapture of Christ's Church.
I simply believe in the Rapture of Christ's Church.

This is talking about the division between believers and unbelievers and the growing hostility between them. Nothing more.

Actually it is more.

Speaking of the NT forward...

A man having BELIEF ONLY, is one thing.
Belief ONLY, in God.
Belief ONLY, in Jesus.

Or A man having BELIEF IN BOTH.

A man can STOP at any time having Belief.

A man having BELIEF, ONLY in God or Jesus;
And such man COMMITTED, ONLY TO God or Jesus.

That is a mans CHOICE.
A man COMMITTED to God ONLY;
Does so, according to the Law.
A man COMMITTED to Jesus ONLY;
Does so, according to False Teaching.

A man Can STOP BELIEVING ONLY AT ANY TIME!

NT Scripture IS VERY CLEAR...
To Become SAVED and BORN AGAIN requires....
Belief IN the Father God.
And
Belief IN Jesus
And
A Testiment OF COMMITMENT.

So to say there IS NO Division among PEOPLE or among BELIEVERS, is FALSE.

Saying one is a BELIEVER is subjective...
VOID OF THE FACTS.

Believer IN WHAT? God only? Jesus only? Allah? Buddha?

Committed to WHAT?

It does matter IF one is Jew or Gentile...
Precisely because the WHAT IS dependant upon WHAT the individual Jew or Gentile;
Believes IN
And
IS Committed TO.

A Jew or Gentile that Believes;
IN GOD the Father,
IN Jesus the Christ,
AND IS Commited to the Father & the Christ;
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between the
Jew and Gentile THEN!

THEY BOTH, Jew and Gentile have Become,
Forgiven, Saved, Born Again, and a Member of Christ's Church.....and are NOT subject to the WRATH of God.
They, as IN the Day of Noah, ARE SAVED, and RISEN UP ABOVE THE EARTH, as Tribulation Begins upon the Earth.

A JEW, Believing and Committed TO GOD ONLY, and NOT Christ Jesus....
Shall suffer a PORTION of the Beginning Tribulation.
They are the heaviest concentration IN Jerusalem and Judea.
They are the primary targets of the World.
They are warned to run to the hills.
They shall be primarily ministered to BY Gods Chosen 144,000.
They shall ESCAPE taking the MARK OF THE BEAST.
They primarily shall be CONVERTED, believing in BOTH God and Christ.
They LIKE all Gentiles who Believe and Commit SHALL Become Forgiven, Saved and Born Again and receive the Seal of God.
They SHALL be BODILY KILLED, as will ALL on Earth, who reject the mark of the Beast.
Their Saved soul and Quickened (Born Again spriit) shall Depart their Dead Bodies and GO TO God IN Heaven....(This occurs DURING the first part of the Tribulation, 5th/6th seal opening).....(The Tribulation begins with the opening of the First Seal)

THEN WILL THE Saved and Born Again Jews and Gentiles, BE Above the Earth, While the Wrath of God INCREASES, upon the corrupt Earth, and Corrupt men Left on Earth.

I have said Repeatedly;
God has an ORDER, a WAY, of what APPLIES to Individuals.
All Scripture is True, Yet ALL Scripture DOES NOT APPLY to every Individual.
The Individual chooses WHAT TO BELIEVE, WHAT Applies to Him, BY WHAT and WHEN he Chooses to COMMIT TO.

And WHAT men Choose to Believe AND Commit to....
Absolutely DOES cause DIVISION among men.

Perhaps you did not know...The Jews are Gods First Chosen People....and VERY FEW, have come into Belief IN Christ Jesus....and they CAN NOT enter INTO Christ's Kingdom, WITHOUT Belief IN Christ Jesus.

Gentiles primarily are the ONES, Already, believing and committing TO God and Christ Jesus....THEY are ALREADY PREPARED according to Gods REQUIREMENT to Be REDEEMED, Taken, Raised Up ....

While God completes the NEXT order of Saving and Removing Faithful and Committed JEWS, UP above the Earth.

Then shall the INTENSE suffering VIA Gods Wrath befall the Earth and the People remaining on Earth.

God is NOT ON the Earth, while He is unleashing His Wrath upon the Earth.

Christ Jesus, the Lamb of God is NOT ON the Earth, while He is unleashing His Wrath upon the Earth.

Thee Lord Gods Holy angels are NOT ON the Earth, while Gods Wrath is unleashed upon the Earth.

WHY anyone Believes, God LEAVES His Forgiven, Saved and Born Again Children Upon the Earth, WHILE HE IS DIVIDING...
the Forgiven, Saved and Born Again
FROM
The unForgiven, the UnSaved, and the UnBorn Again....is ludicrist.

When a man CHOSE to Drink of Jesus' SAME CUP....They CHOSE to Commited to Christ...and Chose to be SUBJECT TO: the hate and indignation the World would HEAP UPON them.

God RAISES UP above the earth, all those who were hated, Because they Believed and Committed to God and Christ....

And Unleashes His OWN CUP OF INDIGNATION UPON the Earth and the people of the Earth who HEAPED indignation upon HIS Children.

IN SHORT, Gods Wrath, IS HE Fulfilling His Promise to Avenge and Spew out Vengence upon those who Hated and Caused tribulations and death to His children....BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED and COMMITTED TO GOD and Christ.

If you ARE In Belief of God AND Jesus AND committed to both....

You are NOT SUBJECT TO GODS WRATH...His VENGENCE upon the Earth and the People there of.

What is your point of being ON EARTH..during the Tribulation? To spread His Word?

That has been the Faithful's JOB for 2,000 + years....How's that working out? People are Rejecting God and Christ IN DROVeS...Open your Eyes, Observe.

Observe the USA, founded and established on GODS Principles ans Stndards....in less than 300 years is full of people with corrupt minds and actions and teaching the same IS Acceptable.

God decides when enough is enough.
God Decides when HE WILL STEP IN, Rise UP to Him those that ARE sealed unto Him...
And Let the Corrupt have a short season of doing things THEIR WAY, and be Subject to HIS Cup of Indignation.....Let them Be subject TO....what THEY make His Children Subject to!

Then God shall clean up the MESS, and restore the Earth and return His Children to their Restored habitat....as HE created for them to Have.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Nov 15, 2018

Vexatious said:
I point out in post after post of outright lies of pretribbers....

No. What you point out is your disagreement, then proclaim, anyone not in agreement with you is a LIAR.

What you FAIL to comprehend is:
It is NOT YOU Scripture teaches for a man to Be in Agreement with.

You want to BE ON EARTH while the Lord God is POURING OUT HIS INDIGNATION upon the Earth and the inhabitants who Rejected Him...
THAT'S YOU.

Others' will be risen up Above the Earth, with the Lord, Observing Him effecting His Revenge, BY the POWER of His Word...
spoken from ON HIGH....While HIS children are WITH HIM!

Glory to God,
Taken

Vexatious · Nov 15, 2018

Taken said:
No. What you point out is your disagreement, then proclaim, anyone not in agreement with you is a LIAR.

Consistent naked misrepresentation of what the Bible says is not mere disagreement. If pretribers were honest people, they would give me honest and direct answers. They don't. They act like liars, not like people who merely disagree. Now, I know many innocent sheep are pretribers because they don't know the Bible and pretrib teachers wrap themselves in the Bible, like Jack van Impe who is famous for the frequency he mentions chapter and verse (although, always out of context, and usually sans the words of the verses). One day, these innocent sheep will thank me for my bluntness that helps set them free from the devil's pretrib lies.

Taken · Nov 15, 2018

Vexatious said:
Consistent naked misrepresentation of what the Bible says is not mere disagreement. If pretribers were honest people, they would give me honest and direct answers. They don't. They act like liars, not like people who merely disagree. Now, I know many innocent sheep are pretribers because they don't know the Bible and pretrib teachers wrap themselves in the Bible, like Jack van Impe who is famous for the frequency he mentions chapter and verse (although, always out of context, and usually sans the words of the verses). One day, these innocent sheep will thank me for my bluntness that helps set them free from the devil's pretrib lies.

Look, if you want to yell from the rooftops. You intend to BE ON THE EARTH LOOKING UP to the clouds, seeing the Lord in the Clouds, and WHALING in pain, grief and anger...

That's YOU. Who cares what YOU do? I don't.
What you Do affects You, and affects Gods own Inheritance....that He aleady has addressed.

I have NO negative consequence for disagreeing with YOU.
And you calling everyone a Liar that disagrees with YOU, is only a negative consequence YOU are effecting for yourself.

Glory to God,
Taken

CoreIssue · Nov 15, 2018

Taken said:
Look, if you want to yell from the rooftops. You intend to BE ON THE EARTH LOOKING UP to the clouds, seeing the Lord in the Clouds, and WHALING in pain, grief and anger...

That's YOU. Who cares what YOU do? I don't.
What you Do affects You, and affects Gods own Inheritance....that He aleady has addressed.

I have NO negative consequence for disagreeing with YOU.
And you calling everyone a Liar that disagrees with YOU, is only a negative consequence YOU are effecting for yourself.

Glory to God,
Taken

Vexatious sees himself as an anointed judge and prophet of God.

Enoch111 · Nov 15, 2018

CoreIssue said:
Vexatious sees himself as an anointed judge and prophet of God.

And a vexatious spirit.

bbyrd009 · Nov 15, 2018

ha i guess someone should welcome him to the human race then huh

Taken · Nov 15, 2018

CoreIssue said:
Vexatious sees himself as an anointed judge and prophet of God.

Not the first time the Wicked has stood before a mirror and expected to be exalted.

Just saying...

God Bless,
Taken

Taken · Nov 15, 2018

Enoch111 said:
And a vexatious spirit.

Yes, that IS his intent....

Has he accomplished causing the Converted, to be worried? No, and why all he's got is to call people names...pfffft! Small men have only the same old worn out small bags of tricks....

God Bless,
Taken

Keraz · Nov 15, 2018

Vexatious said:
One day, these innocent sheep will thank me for my bluntness that helps set them free from the devil's pretrib lies.

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't:
John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.
What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Naomi25 · Nov 15, 2018

Vexatious said:
I point out in post after post of outright lies of pretribbers. In the post that you replied to, I pointed out three of their lies concerning their claim Rev 3:10, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation..." teaches the pre-trib rapture. Let me enumerate them for you:

1) Pretribbers lie in claiming "keep", τηρέω, means raptured. It means watched or guarded, which implies staying, not leaving.
2) Pretribbers lie and claim what Jesus says to the church of Sardis applies to our day. Sardis was a First-century church, not a 21st-century church, so it was a First-century temptation Sardis was guarded from.
3) Pretribbers teach the lie that the churches in Revelation are church ages, not First-century churches.. And, they claim Laodicea, not Sardis, represents the last church age. So, they lie in the context of their own lies in applying what Jesus said to Sardis to our time.

You or they are free to show that I'm wrong in calling pretribers liars, but all you can do make baseless judgement against me. All they can do is feign indignation against me for calling them out for lying. There are incredibly wonderful Mormons, that doesn't make what they teach not lies. And, no non-Mormon church would have any tolerance for Mormon lies within the church.

Pretribbers are liars. They have here ever opportunity here to prove their not...

A person who is a liar is someone who deliberately tells an untruth with a view to decieve others. Dispensationalists believe wholeheartedly what they preach.
Saying that "lying is the natural language" also implies that everything that they say is also a lie, that nothing they say can be trusted. Which is rot, and a terrible slander against them.

As for your own "proof of their lies", half of what you say about "their beliefs" aren't even accurate anyway, and are clearly based on your own hatred of them and some weird personal vendetta that has skewed their actual teaching way over the horizon.

So...I'm not sure you're in a position to throw around accusations like you are. If you want to show their doctrine to be false, show it from scripture. Leave the defamation of character alone.

The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

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