Where The Body Is The Vultures Will Gather

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Hidden In Him

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That's a common tactic of people exposed, claim indignation by the charges as an excuse not to answer the charges.

Well, to prove this, you would have to show me where I haven't answered anyone else. I'm not averse to answering people's arguments, here or elsewhere. I just don't like to entertain someone being insulting, as if simply passing it over as acceptable. You may mock me for it, but in your case my honest concern is more with your spiritual condition than worrying about any debate over a vulture analogy. That takes precedence here, and I had already taken stock and judged that even if you accused me of being unable to answer you, I had a greater responsibility where that was concerned than worrying about how I might be viewed.
Yeah, I know, you don't consider yourself a pretribber, but you still tell their lies, because you're still defending false doctrines that are mostly the same as pretribber doctrine.

On this text, yes. But you don't want to do that with people. It's a form of bearing false witness. Anyone who reads that and doesn't know me very well might assume I actually am Pre-Trib, and that would be misleading.
1) "Where" is an irrelevant question to Jesus' comment about false Christs, any other supposed Christ is false.


Jesus' purpose was to warn them that false Christs would be coming, and that people would say "Lo, here," or "Lo, there," and not to follow them. Why would He be taking the time to warn them about it and command them not to follow them if there was nothing to be concerned about here? He said in Mathew 24:24 that these false Christs would perform miracles powerful enough to deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect. But it was not because Jesus was exposing what Satan's strategy would be in advance, saying "Behold, I have told you before." (v.25).
2) In the parallel passage, Jesus did say where for reasons of illustration, and it wasn't in answer to anyone's question.

I explained this one in the OP.
When they were asking "Where Lord?" in Luke 17:37, what they actually wanted to know is "Where will these false christs manifest themselves, Lord?" This is evident by comparing the texts. But if you'll notice, in Luke's account Jesus never says anything about "the wilderness" or "the secret chambers" yet; only that some will say, "Lo, He is here," or "Lo, He is there." He instead skips straight to talking about how they will know the real Christ has come:

"And they will say to you, 'Lo, here,' or 'Lo, there.' Do not go forth nor follow. For as the lightning which lights up the sky shines from under [one side of] the heaven to under [the other side of] heaven, so also will be the Son of man [do so] in His day." (Luke 17:23)

It is by comparing both accounts that we see more of the full progression of how the conversation originally went. He originally told them merely that some would say "He is here," or "He is there," to which they asked, "Where, Lord?" (i.e. "Where will they say the Christ is?"). After they asked this, Jesus apparently then gave more specifics as recored in Matthew's account: In the wilderness or in the secret chambers.

By comparing the texts, my argument is that He was saying it in answer to their question. Do you believe they are parallel passages on the same discourse, or no?
3) In context, the disciples asked where people would be taken. The contest says they "answered" Jesus when he said one would be take and another one left.

You're arguing that the disciples were not asking a question? All the manuscripts have a question mark in this verse.
4) In the parallel passage, Jesus gives a stronger explanation to those taken, they'd be taken to where there is a gnashing of teeth.

Gnashing of teeth? You mean in Matthew 24:51? By this point He is giving a teaching to the disciples on what would become of them if they were poor stewards over His house. By moving into Matthew 24:42-51, you appear to be claiming that the thief in v.43 is Jesus and that he will come to "steal" the wicked away for some reason. Why would He use an analogy of stealing the wicked away, as if they were something He desired?
5) It's not legitimate to pick "where" out of context, as you did and move it to another position in a parallel passage.

Here is the only argument you make that holds a little water, but the NT is actually full of examples of such instances where a statement made a verse or two later is actually referencing back farther than the end of the verse it is contained in. Colossians 2:16-17 is another instance. It's just the way they wrote back then. How are you interpreting Matthew 24:28 in its context? If you consider them to be parallel passages, how do you interpret the expression in both texts?
6) If "When?" was vague, it's by far most reasonable that the disciples would want to know where people are taken, not where false Christs would appear.

I think you meant "Where?", or am I misunderstanding you? This one seems to be a repeat of your previous question.
7) Jesus also equates those "taken" with those "swept away" in the flood and with those killed in Sodom.

For this I would refer you to Posts #27 and #39.
8) There's no indication whatsoever that those taken are raptured.

You do believe Matthew 24:31 is about the rapture, yes? This is couched between Matthew 24:23-28 and Matthew 24:36-41. It is all part of the same discourse.
 

Enoch111

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Hello @Enoch111,

What qualifying scriptures can you provide that identifies the Church to be 'The Bride of the Lamb'? (The term 'The Bride of Christ' being nowhere mentioned in Scripture).

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello Charity,

There are several Scriptures which identify the Church as the Bride of Christ.

THE CHURCH AS A CHASTE VIRGIN
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:1,2)

THE CHURCH AS THE WIFE OF CHRIST ("This is a Great Mystery")
Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

THE SAINTS AS THE LAMB'S WIFE
Revelation 19

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
 

charity

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@Enoch111
@farouk

Hello both,

I hope you don't mind that I answer you both in one reply.

First of all, thank you Enoch111 for supplying 2 Corinthians 11:1-2; Ephesians 5:22-33; Revelation 19:5-9, as your response to my request for qualifying scriptures for the claim that the Church is 'the Bride of the Lamb'; and to you farouk for Ephesians 5:24-25.

* The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is also referred to as, 'the Lamb of God', does not give us the right to create the title, 'the Bride of Christ' , or to ascribe that title to the Church.

My evening meal is waiting for me at the moment, so I shall come back later (God willing) with a response to the verses you have referenced.

My thanks to you both
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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@Enoch111
@farouk

Hello both,

I hope you don't mind that I answer you both in one reply.

First of all, thank you Enoch111 for supplying 2 Corinthians 11:1-2; Ephesians 5:22-33; Revelation 19:5-9, as your response to my request for qualifying scriptures for the claim that the Church is 'the Bride of the Lamb'; and to you farouk for Ephesians 5:24-25.

* The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is also referred to as, 'the Lamb of God', does not give us the right to create the title, 'the Bride of Christ' , or to ascribe that title to the Church.

My evening meal is waiting for me at the moment, so I shall come back later (God willing) with a response to the verses you have referenced.

My thanks to you both
In Christ Jesus
Chris

'Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(2 Cor 11:1-2)

Hello @Enoch111 & @farouk,

Looking at 2 Corinthians 11:1-2 first: Paul's motive was a godly jealousy (11:2) such as God Himself had for the people of Israel in the Old Testament, this nation standing towards Him in the relationship of a wife to a husband. He yearned over them especially when they went after other 'lovers', as is described in many Old Testament passages, and it is this same intense feeling that Paul had for the Corinthian church. The danger being that they would be seduced by the false teachers who were troubling them at this time. who preached 'another Jesus', and would rob them of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

* If the nation of Israel was looked upon as a faithless wife of Jehovah, the Bride represents the faithful remnant that remained true to the Lord all through the Old Testament; such, from faithful Abraham onward looked forward by faith to the better country linked with the Heavenly Jerusalem whose destiny is the New Earth (Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10) and this city is the Bride of the Lamb (Rev. 21:2, 9). This sphere would include the faithful and those that went on to perfection (Heb. 6:1) in the Acts period, and those who are tested and found faithful on the future Day of the Lord, and it was Paul's great aim that those to whom he ministered, including the believers at Corinth should be included in this favoured company. It is important to grasp that the heavenly city is a reward sphere for 'Overcomers' in Israel and those Gentiles linked with Israel. There is, therefore, no need to confuse this with the later revelation of the 'Joint-Body' of Christ, yet to be blessed with Christ in the heavenlies, 'far above all', made known by Paul in his later epistles (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. and Titus).

* The Body of Christ is one company, The Bride of the Lamb another, each under the Headship of Christ, the failure to distinguish between these two companies is the cause of so much confusion and strife between believers today. It is the Church which is the Body of Christ which is being called out today.

* I shall come back to the Ephesian references if I may (God willing), the reference from Revelation being covered by what I have said in this entry.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris
 
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CoreIssue

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'Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(2 Cor 11:1-2)

Hello @Enoch111 & @farouk,

Looking at 2 Corinthians 11:1-2 first: Paul's motive was a godly jealousy (11:2) such as God Himself had for the people of Israel in the Old Testament, this nation standing towards Him in the relationship of a wife to a husband. He yearned over them especially when they went after other 'lovers', as is described in many Old Testament passages, and it is this same intense feeling that Paul had for the Corinthian church. The danger being that they would be seduced by the false teachers who were troubling them at this time. who preached 'another Jesus', and would rob them of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

* If the nation of Israel was looked upon as a faithless wife of Jehovah, the Bride represents the faithful remnant that remained true to the Lord all through the Old Testament; such, from faithful Abraham onward looked forward by faith to the better country linked with the Heavenly Jerusalem whose destiny is the New Earth (Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10) and this city is the Bride of the Lamb (Rev. 21:2, 9). This sphere would include the faithful and those that went on to perfection (Heb. 6:1) in the Acts period, and those who are tested and found faithful on the future Day of the Lord, and it was Paul's great aim that those to whom he ministered, including the believers at Corinth should be included in this favoured company. It is important to grasp that the heavenly city is a reward sphere for 'Overcomers' in Israel and those Gentiles linked with Israel. There is, therefore, no need to confuse this with the later revelation of the 'Joint-Body' of Christ, yet to be blessed with Christ in the heavenlies, 'far above all', made known by Paul in his later epistles (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. and Titus).

* The Body of Christ is one company, The Bride of the Lamb another, each under the Headship of Christ, the failure to distinguish between these two companies is the cause of so much confusion and strife between believers today. It is the Church which is the Body of Christ which is being called out today.

* I shall come back to the Ephesian references if I may (God willing), the reference from Revelation being covered by what I have said in this entry.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris
The Bride is only the Church. The body of Christ is Israel and church as joint heirs.

That does leave a lot of people out, such as the saved before Israel, gentiles during Israel, those that never heard the gospel, the tribulation saints and gentile saints in the MK. They are in never called Israel or Church.
 

Enoch111

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The Bride is only the Church. The body of Christ is Israel and church as joint heirs.
The Church is (1) the Body of Christ, (2) the Bride of Christ, and (3) the Building of Christ.
* The Body of Christ is one company, The Bride of the Lamb another, each under the Headship of Christ
I already gave you the Scripture passage from Ephesians which calls the Church BOTH the wife of Christ and the Body of Christ. So why can we not take Scripture for what it says?

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body...That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.... For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church -- HERE CHRIST IS THE HUSBAND, BEING THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH

2. ...and he is the saviour of the body -- HERE CHRIST IS THE HEAD AND THE BODY IS THE CHURCH

3. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish... HERE CHRIST IS THE BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL PRESENT TO HIMSELF A SPOTLESS BRIDE

4. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church... HERE CHRIST IS THE HUSBAND OF THE CHURCH AS ADAM WAS THE HUSBAND OF EVE.

And here's the important note: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Paul ties the marriage of Christ and the Church to the marriage of human husbands and wives, and also makes a reference to what was said regarding the marriage of the first husband and wife.

And We should be mindful that we are dealing with spiritual realities and spiritual entities.
 

CoreIssue

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The Church is (1) the Body of Christ,

Church and Israel jointly.


(2) the Bride of Christ, and

Agree.
(3) the Building of Christ.

Capital C is believers. Small c the building they fellowship in.


I already gave you the Scripture passage from Ephesians which calls the Church BOTH the wife of Christ and the Body of Christ. So why can we not take Scripture for what it says?

  • Ephesians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
    6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

  • Ephesians 3:5-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
    5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
    6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Fellow heirs with who?
 
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charity

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The Church is (1) the Body of Christ, (2) the Bride of Christ, and (3) the Building of Christ.

I already gave you the Scripture passage from Ephesians which calls the Church BOTH the wife of Christ and the Body of Christ. So why can we not take Scripture for what it says?

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body...That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.... For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church -- HERE CHRIST IS THE HUSBAND, BEING THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH

2. ...and he is the saviour of the body -- HERE CHRIST IS THE HEAD AND THE BODY IS THE CHURCH

3. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish... HERE CHRIST IS THE BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL PRESENT TO HIMSELF A SPOTLESS BRIDE

4. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church... HERE CHRIST IS THE HUSBAND OF THE CHURCH AS ADAM WAS THE HUSBAND OF EVE.
Hello @Enoch111,

Yes, I acknowledged your reference to Ephesians in my last entry (reply#85), and I told you I would return to it, (God Willing).

* The Holy Spirit, neither in Ephesians, through Paul, or elsewhere in Scripture, makes reference to the Church, as 'the wife of Christ', as you claim, Enoch. Neither does it say that the risen Christ is a 'husband' to the Church. The passage from Ephesians chapter five, refers to Christ and His Church to illustrate the union between husband and wife, and what is required of each in the marriage relationship. It is an illustration only - illuminating wonderful truths.

* We are not to read into these Scriptures meanings that they were never intended to have, as you have in your response (above). God says what He means and means exactly what He says, His Word needs no interpretation.

* God also does not mix His metaphors: The Church which is the Body of Christ, is just that, 'The Body of Christ': for it's members are identified with Christ in the eyes of God, and are One with Him. 'The Bride of the Lamb' is distinct and separate from the Body of Christ, as I told you in my previous post, being a different calling, with a different sphere of blessing and purpose, in the will of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Enoch111

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Neither does it say that the risen Christ is a 'husband' to the Church.
You have just contradicted the Word of God which says: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2)

Who is the "one husband"? Christ
Who is the chaste virgin? The saints, the Church of God, the Body of Christ, after glorification

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27)

Is Christ compared to husbands? Absolutely
Is the Church compared to wives? Absolutely
Is the love of Christ compared to the love of husbands? Absolutely
Will a spotless glorious Church be the virgin Bride? Absolutely
Does Christ present the Church to Himself? Absolutely

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8)

Who is the Lamb? Christ
Is there an actual Marriage in Heaven? Yes
So who is the Bridegroom? Christ
And who is the Bride arrayed in fine linen? The saints, the Church, the Body of Christ
What is the fine linen? The righteousness of the saints
When does a bride become a wife? After the wedding.
So is the Church (the saints) the Lamb's Wife? Absolutely

The New Testament makes it perfectly clear that God uses THREE METAPHORS for the eternal relationship of the Church to Christ: (1) the Body (2) the Bride, and (3) the Building. And John the Baptist already prophesied about the Bride when He said:He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (John 3:29)

It is crystal clear from the context that John was calling Christ "the Bridegroom". So who is the Bride? The saints, the redeemed of the Lord, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Song of Songs (Shir Hashirim or the Song of Solomon) has a deeper meaning than on the surface, since it reveals the love of Christ for the Church as His Wife. That is the primary reason for its presence in Scripture. And chapter 2, verse 10 discloses the Rapture of the Church: My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

This corresponds to John 14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
 

CoreIssue

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You have just contradicted the Word of God which says: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2)

Who is the "one husband"? Christ
Who is the chaste virgin? The saints, the Church of God, the Body of Christ, after glorification

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27)

Is Christ compared to husbands? Absolutely
Is the Church compared to wives? Absolutely
Is the love of Christ compared to the love of husbands? Absolutely
Will a spotless glorious Church be the virgin Bride? Absolutely
Does Christ present the Church to Himself? Absolutely

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8)

Who is the Lamb? Christ
Is there an actual Marriage in Heaven? Yes
So who is the Bridegroom? Christ
And who is the Bride arrayed in fine linen? The saints, the Church, the Body of Christ
What is the fine linen? The righteousness of the saints
When does a bride become a wife? After the wedding.
So is the Church (the saints) the Lamb's Wife? Absolutely

The New Testament makes it perfectly clear that God uses THREE METAPHORS for the eternal relationship of the Church to Christ: (1) the Body (2) the Bride, and (3) the Building. And John the Baptist already prophesied about the Bride when He said:He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (John 3:29)

It is crystal clear from the context that John was calling Christ "the Bridegroom". So who is the Bride? The saints, the redeemed of the Lord, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Song of Songs (Shir Hashirim or the Song of Solomon) has a deeper meaning than on the surface, since it reveals the love of Christ for the Church as His Wife. That is the primary reason for its presence in Scripture. And chapter 2, verse 10 discloses the Rapture of the Church: My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

This corresponds to John 14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The only thing I will say here is that in the Hebrew marriage ceremony a bride is considered already married.

At the same time the Groom comes as a thief in the night to steal her.

So all of this is very different from how we think. But it should help those who do not know how to deal with the thief and in the night issue.


Marriage Super of the Lamb
 

charity

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You have just contradicted the Word of God which says: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2)

Who is the "one husband"? Christ
Who is the chaste virgin? The saints, the Church of God, the Body of Christ, after glorification

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27)

Is Christ compared to husbands? Absolutely
Is the Church compared to wives? Absolutely
Is the love of Christ compared to the love of husbands? Absolutely
Will a spotless glorious Church be the virgin Bride? Absolutely
Does Christ present the Church to Himself? Absolutely

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8)

Who is the Lamb? Christ
Is there an actual Marriage in Heaven? Yes
So who is the Bridegroom? Christ
And who is the Bride arrayed in fine linen? The saints, the Church, the Body of Christ
What is the fine linen? The righteousness of the saints
When does a bride become a wife? After the wedding.
So is the Church (the saints) the Lamb's Wife? Absolutely

The New Testament makes it perfectly clear that God uses THREE METAPHORS for the eternal relationship of the Church to Christ: (1) the Body (2) the Bride, and (3) the Building. And John the Baptist already prophesied about the Bride when He said:He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (John 3:29)

It is crystal clear from the context that John was calling Christ "the Bridegroom". So who is the Bride? The saints, the redeemed of the Lord, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Song of Songs (Shir Hashirim or the Song of Solomon) has a deeper meaning than on the surface, since it reveals the love of Christ for the Church as His Wife. That is the primary reason for its presence in Scripture. And chapter 2, verse 10 discloses the Rapture of the Church: My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

This corresponds to John 14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hello @Enoch111,

You come to the text with pre-conceptions, which colour your reading of it. The Church which is spoken of by the Holy Spirit, as 'The Church which is His (Christ's) Body', is just that (in a figure) - His Body. So, if Christ is, as you say, the , 'husband', then so would the Church be. It could not therefore be both 'husband' and 'bride'. However the Church is not spoken of as the husband of the church, but it's Head.

To reason with you on this, in the face of your pre-conceptions, which are unfounded, is pointless, for we would always be talking from a polarized position.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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When they were asking "Where Lord?" in Luke 17:37, what they actually wanted to know is "Where will these false christs manifest themselves, Lord?" This is evident by comparing the texts. But if you'll notice, in Luke's account Jesus never says anything about "the wilderness" or "the secret chambers" yet; only that some will say, "Lo, He is here," or "Lo, He is there." He instead skips straight to talking about how they will know the real Christ has come:

"And they will say to you, 'Lo, here,' or 'Lo, there.' Do not go forth nor follow. For as the lightning which lights up the sky shines from under [one side of] the heaven to under [the other side of] heaven, so also will be the Son of man [do so] in His day." (Luke 17:23)

It is by comparing both accounts that we see more of the full progression of how the conversation originally went. He originally told them merely that some would say "He is here," or "He is there," to which they asked, "Where, Lord?" (i.e. "Where will they say the Christ is?"). After they asked this, Jesus apparently then gave more specifics as recored in Matthew's account: In the wilderness or in the secret chambers. But none of it would be true, for the Son of Man would appear in the sky like lightning shining from East to West, and gather His elect unto Himself in the air. Any "christ" that manifested himself as a mere mortal man on the earth would be a false one, and would only gather unto himself vultures (i.e. those who feed on the dead) around him.
Matthew 24:23–28
Luke 17:37
'And they answered and said unto Him, 'Where, Lord?'
And He said unto them,
"Wheresoever the body is,
thither will the eagles be gathered together."'


Hello @Hidden In Him,

The words our Lord used in reply to the question, 'Where, Lord?' - was a proverbial saying, one that was of common use (Job 19:30), and would therefore be recognizable to His listeners. The word, 'body', is translated 'carcass' in Matthew 24:28: therefore cannot be interpreted, as some do, as, 'The Body of Christ' or the Church.

* The question then is:"What is the saying intended to convey to the mind of the questioners?"

* The question, 'Where Lord?' - Matthew 24 makes clear is related to where The Christ will return to, for the false prophets will be directing the people to various locations where they say (falsely) that the Christ is. The Lord tells them in Matthew 24:27, that the coming of the Son of Man will be 'as lightning cometh' - 'out of the east' - 'and shining even unto the west': so will be visible to all; therefore no direction will be needed from anyone as to 'where' He is, on that day.

* The question, 'Where Lord?' I believe (on further reflection) is not related to the false Christ's, but to the Lord's coming itself: Where would the returning Christ be found? Then the question as to the proverbial saying and it's application becomes clear. The tribes of the earth will be looking for the returning Christ: but where He is, there they will be gathered together; not at their own volition but His. How? is explained in Matthew 24:30-31

* The 'gathering together' will be ordered by the Son of Man, by means of His angels: and those 'gathered', will be His elect, and that not the Church, but the elect of Israel. They will be gathered unto Him.

* So they need not concern themselves as to 'where' or 'how', for the returning Son of Man will gather them to Himself: He will return 'bodily' and His own elect will be gathered unto Him, as surely as the vulture will be found gathered around it's prey.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris



 
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charity

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'And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, -
- when shall these things be? and
- what shall be the sign of thy coming, and
- of the end of the world?'

(Matthew 24:3)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

The Lord's response to these three questions, asked by His disciples, are what occupy the content of Matthew 24: so the word, 'Where Lord?' used in Luke 17:37, which is it's counterpart; have to be understood in that light.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Hidden In Him

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If the nation of Israel was looked upon as a faithless wife of Jehovah, the Bride represents the faithful remnant that remained true to the Lord all through the Old Testament; such, from faithful Abraham onward looked forward by faith to the better country linked with the Heavenly Jerusalem whose destiny is the New Earth (Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10) and this city is the Bride of the Lamb (Rev. 21:2, 9). This sphere would include the faithful and those that went on to perfection (Heb. 6:1) in the Acts period, and those who are tested and found faithful on the future Day of the Lord, and it was Paul's great aim that those to whom he ministered, including the believers at Corinth should be included in this favoured company. It is important to grasp that the heavenly city is a reward sphere for 'Overcomers' in Israel and those Gentiles linked with Israel. There is, therefore, no need to confuse this with the later revelation of the 'Joint-Body' of Christ, yet to be blessed with Christ in the heavenlies, 'far above all', made known by Paul in his later epistles (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. and Titus).
* God also does not mix His metaphors: The Church which is the Body of Christ, is just that, 'The Body of Christ': for it's members are identified with Christ in the eyes of God, and are One with Him. 'The Bride of the Lamb' is distinct and separate from the Body of Christ, as I told you in my previous post, being a different calling, with a different sphere of blessing and purpose, in the will of God.

Blessings, Charity.

I have been following along, and I believe I understand the argument you are making. But by presenting the Body of Christ as being in Christ and therefore "the husband," yet presenting the faithful remnant of national Israel as His bride, you seem to be placing a higher rank upon Christians than upon the Jewish remnant. I say "seem" because I am still trying to gather in your position. If this were the case, I would take issue with it in much the same way as I would take issue with any Messianic who gave the Jews are higher rank in the future kingdom of God than believing Gentiles. Both would go against the notion that there is no Gentile or Jew in Christ.

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assessment of what you are saying. I am open-minded on it, but not yet swayed by what I understand of your argument.
 

Hidden In Him

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Matthew 24:23–28
Luke 17:37
'And they answered and said unto Him, 'Where, Lord?'
And He said unto them,
"Wheresoever the body is,
thither will the eagles be gathered together."'


Hello @Hidden In Him,

The words our Lord used in reply to the question, 'Where, Lord?' - was a proverbial saying, one that was of common use (Job 19:30), and would therefore be recognizable to His listeners. The word, 'body', is translated 'carcass' in Matthew 24:28: therefore cannot be interpreted, as some do, as, 'The Body of Christ' or the Church.

* The question then is:"What is the saying intended to convey to the mind of the questioners?"

* The question, 'Where Lord?' - Matthew 24 makes clear is related to where The Christ will return to, for the false prophets will be directing the people to various locations where they say (falsely) that the Christ is. The Lord tells them in Matthew 24:27, that the coming of the Son of Man will be 'as lightning cometh' - 'out of the east' - 'and shining even unto the west': so will be visible to all; therefore no direction will be needed from anyone as to 'where' He is, on that day.

* The question, 'Where Lord?' I believe (on further reflection) is not related to the false Christ's, but to the Lord's coming itself: Where would the returning Christ be found? Then the question as to the proverbial saying and it's application becomes clear. The tribes of the earth will be looking for the returning Christ: but where He is, there they will be gathered together; not at their own volition but His. How? is explained in Matthew 24:30-31

* The 'gathering together' will be ordered by the Son of Man, by means of His angels: and those 'gathered', will be His elect, and that not the Church, but the elect of Israel. They will be gathered unto Him.

* So they need not concern themselves as to 'where' or 'how', for the returning Son of Man will gather them to Himself: He will return 'bodily' and His own elect will be gathered unto Him, as surely as the vulture will be found gathered around it's prey.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hey, sister! And good afternoon to you (still morning here, and dark and cold in Louisiana atm). About this, we may have to discuss my previous post some first, but my first issue with this argument here would be that it is turning an analogy with otherwise strongly negative connotations for the Jews into a positive one, which seems to be unnatural. Birds feeding on the dead is an analogy of eating that which is unclean.
 

charity

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Hey, sister! And good afternoon to you (still morning here, and dark and cold in Louisiana atm). About this, we may have to discuss my previous post some first, but my first issue with this argument here would be that it is turning an analogy with otherwise strongly negative connotations for the Jews into a positive one, which seems to be unnatural. Birds feeding on the dead is an analogy of eating that which is unclean.

Hello there, @Hidden In Him,

It is mid-day here in the UK, and the sun is shining.

I understand what you mean about the negative connotations: which cause me to pause too; but I believe that the fact of the gathering together of the elect unto Christ, as He returns, at His command, by His angels, unto Him, is the only qualifying picture for that proverbial saying to be interpreted from in Matthew 24.

If this saying has it's roots in Job 39:30, could it be that we are the ones giving it a negative connotation, which it was never intended to have:-

'Doth the eagle mount up at thy command,
and make her nest on high?
She dwelleth and abideth on the rock,
upon the crag of the rock,
and the strong place.
From thence she seeketh the prey,
and her eyes behold afar off.
Her young ones also suck up blood:
and where the slain are,
there is she.'

(Job 39:27-30)

Thank you @Hidden In Him.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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Blessings, Charity.

I have been following along, and I believe I understand the argument you are making. But by presenting the Body of Christ as being in Christ and therefore "the husband," yet presenting the faithful remnant of national Israel as His bride, you seem to be placing a higher rank upon Christians than upon the Jewish remnant. I say "seem" because I am still trying to gather in your position. If this were the case, I would take issue with it in much the same way as I would take issue with any Messianic who gave the Jews are higher rank in the future kingdom of God than believing Gentiles. Both would go against the notion that there is no Gentile or Jew in Christ.

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assessment of what you are saying. I am open-minded on it, but not yet swayed by what I understand of your argument.

Hello @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for both of your responses to me, replies#95 & 96.

I used the word, 'husband', reluctantly: simply to show that the Church which is the Body of Christ, cannot be both the 'Body' of Christ, and the 'Bride' (of the Lamb); if, as is being said, that the Church is the Bride of Christ. The latter appellation not being a scriptural term anyway: the whole scenario has no basis in truth; but I am trying to show the utter incongruity of the argument.

I am a member of the Church which is the Body of Christ, as such I am identified with Him in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, in the sight of God.

The Bride of Christ is a company of the faithful, the believing remnant of every generation in Israel, and during the Acts period, also of the Overcomers of the time to come. These will be a blessed company, greatly loved.

The first have their hope fulfilled in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, their blessings being all spiritual.
The second have their hope fulfilled in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven.

Israel as a nation have the hope of the fulfilment of the promises made to them, as the nation chosen and blessed, (then redeemed) on the earth in basket and store.

All beloved, but differentiated and chosen for different functions in the purpose of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

bbyrd009

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The natural reaction...might be to ask "where"...
What's the brain damage in a prettriber's head that Jesus can talk about people being taken, but no one would ask Where?
you do have a point up there, even if it could have been phrased better i guess.
Your last remark seems to contradict your first one though, now i'm not sure if you believe it would be natch to ask where or not?
 

Hidden In Him

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Hello @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for both of your responses to me, replies#95 & 96.

I used the word, 'husband', reluctantly: simply to show that the Church which is the Body of Christ, cannot be both the 'Body' of Christ, and the 'Bride' (of the Lamb); if, as is being said, that the Church is the Bride of Christ. The latter appellation not being a scriptural term anyway: the whole scenario has no basis in truth; but I am trying to show the utter incongruity of the argument.

I am a member of the Church which is the Body of Christ, as such I am identified with Him in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, in the sight of God.

The Bride of Christ is a company of the faithful, the believing remnant of every generation in Israel, and during the Acts period, also of the Overcomers of the time to come. These will be a blessed company, greatly loved.

The first have their hope fulfilled in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, their blessings being all spiritual.
The second have their hope fulfilled in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven.

Israel as a nation have the hope of the fulfilment of the promises made to them, as the nation chosen and blessed, (then redeemed) on the earth in basket and store.

All beloved, but differentiated and chosen for different functions in the purpose of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I do understand what you are trying to say. It appears to be a very strict interpretation of Revelations 21:2 as applying specifically to Jews (and only to Jews). I still can't say as I'm convinced, though. 2 Corinthians 11:2, cited by Enoch above, for one kinda throws a wrench in it for me. You appear to be dismissing the implications of that verse based on your argument rather than working it into your interpretations somehow.

But it's interesting, and though-provoking anyway.

Blessings in Christ :cool:
Chris