The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

Naomi25 · Nov 16, 2018

farouk said:
John 14; 1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 11.26.

Thank you for posting some verses! I have previously gone through some of them and why I just don't think they support your view, but I am happy to discuss it again, briefly, with you if you want. After all, you may have points or arguements that I have not heard before. Always willing to stop, think, and learn if necessary.

In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

Here's why I don't think this passage can support a Pre-trib Rapture. It doesn't say "If I go, I will come again to take you back there". It just says "I will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also". So, the take away is that when Jesus comes again, we shall be with him, whereever he is. At that particular second, he'll actually be here, collecting us. And if we look to other scriptures, one can actually make a fairly solid arguement that when Christ comes, he'll be doing other things here on earth as well...judging, re-making...that sort of thing. So, I just don't think we can force this text into a reading of a Pre-trib Rapture. Could it be meaning that? I suppose so, sure. But it most certainly doesn't say it outright, so it mustn't be seen strictly as that.

The Coming of the Lord
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

This is a fantastic passage! It doesn't really matter how you take it, it's just great, isn't it? But, as with the John passage, it doesn't really tell us we have to have a Pre-trib Rapture, does it? The infomation that it gives us for certain are: The Lord will descend from heaven with much fanfare! The dead in Christ rise first, then we are lifted up to meet him in the air with him. And then, we are told, we will be with the Lord forever.
It doesn't tell us when this event will take place (before the Trib or after), it doesn't tell us that we must continue upwards to heaven after meeting the Lord in the air, or if we then go back down...continuing in the same direction as the Lord, so to speak. (I know a lot of people here say that it wouldn't make much sense for us people to pop up off the ground to the clouds, and then go straight back down to earth, but let's face it, with Jesus coming down from heaven, and he bringing the souls of the dead with him to reunite them with their new bodies, someone is going to be doing a yoyo here...either us, or Christ).
So...if we are being honest, there is nothing that forces the sort of interpretation upon it that you are hoping for.

And....I'm not really sure how that last verse you gave speaks to the topic, sorry. You might have to be a little more specific!

farouk · Nov 16, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Thank you for posting some verses! I have previously gone through some of them and why I just don't think they support your view, but I am happy to discuss it again, briefly, with you if you want. After all, you may have points or arguements that I have not heard before. Always willing to stop, think, and learn if necessary.

In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

Here's why I don't think this passage can support a Pre-trib Rapture. It doesn't say "If I go, I will come again to take you back there". It just says "I will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also". So, the take away is that when Jesus comes again, we shall be with him, whereever he is. At that particular second, he'll actually be here, collecting us. And if we look to other scriptures, one can actually make a fairly solid arguement that when Christ comes, he'll be doing other things here on earth as well...judging, re-making...that sort of thing. So, I just don't think we can force this text into a reading of a Pre-trib Rapture. Could it be meaning that? I suppose so, sure. But it most certainly doesn't say it outright, so it mustn't be seen strictly as that.

The Coming of the Lord
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

This is a fantastic passage! It doesn't really matter how you take it, it's just great, isn't it? But, as with the John passage, it doesn't really tell us we have to have a Pre-trib Rapture, does it? The infomation that it gives us for certain are: The Lord will descend from heaven with much fanfare! The dead in Christ rise first, then we are lifted up to meet him in the air with him. And then, we are told, we will be with the Lord forever.
It doesn't tell us when this event will take place (before the Trib or after), it doesn't tell us that we must continue upwards to heaven after meeting the Lord in the air, or if we then go back down...continuing in the same direction as the Lord, so to speak. (I know a lot of people here say that it wouldn't make much sense for us people to pop up off the ground to the clouds, and then go straight back down to earth, but let's face it, with Jesus coming down from heaven, and he bringing the souls of the dead with him to reunite them with their new bodies, someone is going to be doing a yoyo here...either us, or Christ).
So...if we are being honest, there is nothing that forces the sort of interpretation upon it that you are hoping for.

And....I'm not really sure how that last verse you gave speaks to the topic, sorry. You might have to be a little more specific!

1 Corinthians 11.26 links the Lord's Supper with the Lord Jesus' coming for His church, which is what His church is looking for, not signs and wonders and disasters on earth.

Naomi25 · Nov 16, 2018

CoreIssue said:
I've given you verses. to prove everything I've said. But you keep changing word definitions or saying maybe it means. Also claiming totally non related verses as proof.

You can't claim proof from verses that don't give it! If it doesn't say it, it doesn't say it!
But...I recognize at this point it has only become a "he said, she said" because clearly you don't believe my take on the verses, and I don't on yours! So...probably no point continuing on, hey?

CoreIssue · Nov 16, 2018

Naomi25 said:
You can't claim proof from verses that don't give it! If it doesn't say it, it doesn't say it!
But...I recognize at this point it has only become a "he said, she said" because clearly you don't believe my take on the verses, and I don't on yours! So...probably no point continuing on, hey?

So now you're telling God how he has to word answers. A nonstarter and why you do not get it.

Naomi25 · Nov 16, 2018

Taken said:
What is the Lord dividing...?
Those who believe from those who do not?

And Is there some time according to God that He shall finalize the division?

I'll wait for your answer then continue the conversation.

God Bless,
Taken

I'd say Matt 25...the sheep and goat judgement.

The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. -Matthew 25:31–32

Enoch111 · Nov 16, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Here's why I don't think this passage can support a Pre-trib Rapture. It doesn't say "If I go, I will come again to take you back there".

Of course it does. Not "back there" but to Heaven, the Father's house. So do you make a practice of reading a passage and simply dismissing what it says? So if you want to be TOTALLY HONEST about John 14:1-3, ask yourself some very elementary questions based upon what is stated in this passage:

1. Where is God the Father at present?
2. Where is the Lord Jesus Christ at present?
3. Who is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ?
3. What is "my Father's house"?
4. What city has God already built which is in Heaven?
5. Does Christ say it has mansions?
6. Does Christ say that He has gone to prepare a place in His Father's house for those who belong to Him?
7. Does Christ say He will come again?
8. Does He connect this coming again to Tribulation and Judgment, or to comfort by saying "Let not your heart be troubled"?
9. Does this mean He will come for the saints?
10. Does that not correspond to the passages pertaining to the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church?
11. Does Christ say that He will receive the saints "to Himself"?
12. Does that not mean that He will come personally at the Rapture?
13. Does "that where I am, there ye may be also" confirm that He will take all the saints to Heaven?
14. Is the period known as the Tribulation for the saints or for the unsaved?
15. So why should the Rapture have anything to do with this period of judgment?

Naomi25 · Nov 16, 2018

CoreIssue said:
So now you're telling God how he has to word answers. A nonstarter and why you do not get it.

No!

I'm saying YOU can't insert words into verses (HIS verses) that are not there. I have, in no way, ever claimed that God has or hasn't been, able to put whatever as he chooses, and I'll thank you for not making that false claim about me. But the fact remains that you are attempting to make something say something when it doesn't say it. I'm sorry if you think the evidences you've given are solid and the excuses you've used are without exception, but each and every one of them rests on an assumption. When you build on an assumption, eventually it will all come crashing down. If you can go back through all your "rapture" verses; John 14, 1 Thess 4, 5; 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, and show me once, where it outright says that the Church MUST be Raptured BEFORE the Tribulation so that Israel can 'do it's thing', or so that the HS can be the Restrainer, or anything like that...then I will allow that some of your assumptions have foundation. But I don't think you can do it.

Naomi25 · Nov 16, 2018

farouk said:
1 Corinthians 11.26 links the Lord's Supper with the Lord Jesus' coming for His church, which is what His church is looking for, not signs and wonders and disasters on earth.

Well, sure we're looking for his coming. But this verse still doesn't say that it's a separate event with a Tribulation inbetween, or that the Church has to be out before the AC is revealed or Israel can be dealt with. None of them do.

farouk · Nov 16, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Well, sure we're looking for his coming. But this verse still doesn't say that it's a separate event with a Tribulation inbetween, or that the Church has to be out before the AC is revealed or Israel can be dealt with. None of them do.

I think the distinction between Israel - which will pass through the Great Tribulation - and the church - which will not - is also important to bear in mind.

Naomi25 · Nov 17, 2018

Enoch111 said:
Of course it does. Not "back there" but to Heaven, the Father's house. So do you make a practice of reading a passage and simply dismissing what it says?

Look, it really doesn't. It just doesn't say that he is "going to take us back there". The verse says:
In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

That's talking about being at Jesus' side. It does not say "where I was, there you will be" or, "I will take you back there", or even "In my fathers house is many room, and I shall come and take you back there".
No, the only SPECIFIC is that where Jesus IS is where we also shall be.

So if you want to be TOTALLY HONEST about John 14:1-3, ask yourself some very elementary questions based upon what is stated in this passage:

1. Where is God the Father at present?
2. Where is the Lord Jesus Christ at present?
3. Who is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ?
3. What is "my Father's house"?
4. What city has God already built which is in Heaven?
5. Does Christ say it has mansions?
6. Does Christ say that He has gone to prepare a place in His Father's house for those who belong to Him?
7. Does Christ say He will come again?
8. Does He connect this coming again to Tribulation and Judgment, or to comfort by saying "Let not your heart be troubled"?
9. Does this mean He will come for the saints?
10. Does that not correspond to the passages pertaining to the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church?
11. Does Christ say that He will receive the saints "to Himself"?
12. Does that not mean that He will come personally at the Rapture?
13. Does "that where I am, there ye may be also" confirm that He will take all the saints to Heaven?
14. Is the period known as the Tribulation for the saints or for the unsaved?
15. So why should the Rapture have anything to do with this period of judgment?

But because I do want to be totally honest, I will consider your questions, and consider them truly.

In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

1: God the Father is in "heaven" at present. (Ignoring his omnipresence for this purpose)
2: Jesus is at his right hand, also in heaven.
3: Ah...The Father, is the Father! God, The Father!
4: The New Jerusalem, which we see in Revelation is to "come down out of heaven"...it's ultimate destination is earth.
5: Many rooms, or mansions, yes...either way, plenty of space for us.
6: Yes, Christ tells us in John 14 that he is going to "prepare a place for us".
7: Yes, Jesus says he will "come again".
8: Here, I have to disagree with you and we start diverging. Yes, Jesus says "do not let your heart be troubled, but he is not talking about "Tribulation/Judgement" as you would have it. Read the context. He's just been talking to his Disciples about how one would betray him. About how he was about to leave them, about how Peter would deny him, about how they could not follow him. Of course they were troubled!! He is saying to them...to the Disciples (and yes, to those us who follow them and also have trouble and trial in our lives) that despite everything we face in life, Christ has our eternity in hand, and one day he will return and set all things right.
9: It means what it says it means. One day Christ Jesus will come for his Church. Nothing more, nothing less. But there is no text there that can insert a 7 year, end time Tribulation, or Pre-trib Rapture. It's not there, not if you stick within the context of the text.
10: Well, yes it corresponds, but probably not in the way you want it to, or thinks it does. It tells us that when Christ returns for his faithful, we shall 'ever be with the Lord'. But there is nothing in this verse that speaks directly of resurrection (in what we might expect) or the Rapture (in what timing or how it might play out). The only information this passage gives us is Christ's promise that he is making something beautiful for us (our future home, which we know will come down out of heaven) and that at some point in the future he will come for us and we will never again, after that moment, be apart from him. It tells us nothing of location apart from being with him. It tells us nothing of timing, or if Israel is separate, or if the Church must be gone for Israel to be dealt with. This is not a passage that this information can be gleaned from.
11: Yes.
12: Yes.
13: No. And I can't see how you can fuddle with the words until the mean it does. It quite clearly says "TAKE YOU TO MYSELF, That where I AM, THERE YOU WILL ALSO BE." In no way does this say, "I'm gonna take you back to heaven." And if Christ has left heaven to 'come pick us up', where does it say that we MUST go back to heaven?
14: Actually, you probably don't want to know what I think about the Tribulation. But I don't see it matters here, because the text doesn't mention it. At all.
15: You've phrased this question a little oddly, sorry, so I'm not quite sure what you're asking. I think you're trying to say that if the Tribulation is for the unsaved, then the Rapture needs to happen first? My reply to that, if that is indeed what you are saying (my apologies if it's not) is that since the text doesn't mention the Tribulation, but only the return of Christ, then it's not up to us to speculate on the timing just here. If we were to widen our gaze and bring all the other texts into consideration in our contemplation of this text in regards to the Rapture, then I'd honestly have to say that I think the Bible repeatedly calls for a single, end times, return of Jesus. He will descend, gather his faithful to him, judge the wicked, remake the cosmos and bring the new Jerusalem down out of heaven for the beginning of the eternal state. Every single verse that talks of these events, talk of it "at Christ's return". I have not yet had someone convincingly show me how it's possible to insert time gaps, divisions or separations. Now...I know that with God everything is possible! I know that in the OT the prophets saw what they didn't understand and when they saw one coming of Christ it was actually 2...so these things are possible! All I'm saying is that from where we sit now, it's not responsible or biblically honest to just assume these things because we want to. We've got to be able to show without a doubt from scripture these things. And I just don't see a Pre-trib, dispenational system being a valid read of the book.

Naomi25 · Nov 17, 2018

farouk said:
I think the distinction between Israel - which will pass through the Great Tribulation - and the church - which will not - is also important to bear in mind.

Yeah...I'm not sure it can be proven that such a division is there.
Do I think things will get worse towards the end? Yes. Do I think it will be a specific 7 years? No, not really.
Do I think National Jews will, in great number come to Christ? Yes. Do I think the Church has to be swept off the planet for God to do this? No.
Do I think God struggles to divide his attention (if that's what he's doing) between National Israel, as he brings them back to him, and the Church, and that's why he needs them gone? No. Do I think the bible has verses that can show this distinct time differnce with one being here for Tribulation while another being gone? No. I think when the bible talks of tribulation, it talks about all the people of God suffering. And when it talks of Christ coming back for his faithful, it talks of him coming back for them all, not just one section at this particular point.

farouk · Nov 17, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Yeah...I'm not sure it can be proven that such a division is there.
Do I think things will get worse towards the end? Yes. Do I think it will be a specific 7 years? No, not really.
Do I think National Jews will, in great number come to Christ? Yes. Do I think the Church has to be swept off the planet for God to do this? No.
Do I think God struggles to divide his attention (if that's what he's doing) between National Israel, as he brings them back to him, and the Church, and that's why he needs them gone? No. Do I think the bible has verses that can show this distinct time differnce with one being here for Tribulation while another being gone? No. I think when the bible talks of tribulation, it talks about all the people of God suffering. And when it talks of Christ coming back for his faithful, it talks of him coming back for them all, not just one section at this particular point.

Interesting that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 is a unique event , while tribulation in John 16 is a general principle in a world that the Lord Jesus has overcome.

Taken · Nov 17, 2018

Naomi25 said:
I'd say Matt 25...the sheep and goat judgement.

Okay.
Sheep divided from goats.
Appears you are saying...
The Saved are divided from the Unsaved.

Agree?

When do you think this Division occurs?

The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. -Matthew 25:31–32

Click to expand...

Agree this is a FINAL DIVISION.

Can you please answer IF there are any "divisions made", before the Final Division is announced at a Judgement" ?

God Bless,
Taken

Vexatious · Nov 17, 2018

Naomi25 said:
And you can find that loving response on which page in the bible?

See Jesus talking to the Jews. They have already received the soft "loving response" without benefit.

Vexatious · Nov 17, 2018

CoreIssue said:
Biblically the church of Satan that is the catholic church.

Logically, based on the Bible, any supposed Christian who says they have the same god as the Jews, the synagogue of Satan and the children of Satan, is the church of Satan. Pretribbers (dispensationalists precisely) are the church of Satan. Pretribbers, who already take the crown for anti-intellectualism and pseudo-Christianity, look increasingly ignorant on their end-times Catholic bashing as the Catholic church becomes increasingly irrelevant.

CoreIssue · Nov 17, 2018

Vexatious said:
Logically, based on the Bible, any supposed Christian who says they have the same god as the Jews, the synagogue of Satan and the children of Satan, is the church of Satan. Pretribbers (dispensationalists precisely) are the church of Satan. Pretribbers, who already take the crown for anti-intellectualism and pseudo-Christianity, look increasingly ignorant on their end-times Catholic bashing as the Catholic church becomes increasingly irrelevant.

The bible says the synagogue of Satan are those who call themselves spiritual Jews who were not Jews.

Those who practice replacement theology fit the definition perfectly in my book.

Keraz · Nov 17, 2018

CoreIssue said:
The bible says the synagogue of Satan are those who call themselves spiritual Jews who were not Jews.

Those who practice replacement theology fit the definition perfectly in my book.

Revelation 2: and 3:9 Those who call themselves Jews, but are not.....
You have twisted this quote, shame on you, - it IS about people who claim to be Jews. Different from the ones as in Romans 2:29

Accusations thrown about of 'Replacement Theology', are made by those who must have a separate Jewish Israel and the Church, for their 'rapture to heaven' theory to work. Those entities never join or replace anything.
But what you rapturists fail to see, is that the true faithful people of God, is One people, from every tribe, race, nation and language. All born again Christians; the rest of the worlds people are the ungodly peoples.

CS Lewis said; The world consists of those who belong to God and those who do not.
RT simply has no place in any theology.

CoreIssue · Nov 17, 2018

Keraz said:
Revelation 2: and 3:9 Those who call themselves Jews, but are not.....
You have twisted this quote, shame on you, - it IS about people who claim to be Jews. Different from the ones as in Romans 2:29

Either way my point stands.

Those into replacement theology claim to be physical Jews as well.

Accusations thrown about of 'Replacement Theology', are made by those who must have a separate Jewish Israel and the Church, for their 'rapture to heaven' theory to work. Those entities never join or replace anything.
But what you rapturists fail to see, is that the true faithful people of God, is One people, from every tribe, race, nation and language. All born again Christians; the rest of the worlds people are the ungodly peoples.

CS Lewis said; The world consists of those who belong to God and those who do not.
RT simply has no place in any theology.

Ephesians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Church and Israel.

That the body of Christ and Church are not the same thing.

Vexatious · Nov 17, 2018

CoreIssue said:
The bible says the synagogue of Satan are those who call themselves spiritual Jews who were not Jews.

Those who practice replacement theology fit the definition perfectly in my book.

Christians are spiritual Jews, regardless of your craven nonsense accusation that Christians(what you call replacement theology) are the synagogue of Satan. Pretribbers are Satanists, logically, by their own confession to having the same god as the children of Satan, Jews. Where's the logic, reason, or scripture in your claim?

With a pretribber, do not even eat.

CoreIssue · Nov 17, 2018

Vexatious said:
Christians are spiritual Jews, regardless of your craven nonsense accusation that Christians(what you call replacement theology) are the synagogue of Satan. Pretribbers are Satanists, logically, by their own confession to having the same god as the children of Satan, Jews. Where's the logic, reason, or scripture in your claim?

With a pretribber, do not even eat.

Spiritual is not the same as physical jew.

The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

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