Believers stay righteous through their obedience

stunnedbygrace · Nov 17, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Hey! Good analogy! But now, let me play off of this just a little bit then.

You are right that He is more concerned with the inside of the cup, especially since religious types can have a habit of working hard to look clean on the outside while being filthy on the inside (spiritually). But now, I believe He ultimately wants both the outside and the inside of the cup to be clean. One verse for this might be 1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And may the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and you whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I think He gives commands because we are being prepared to become citizens of His eternal kingdom, and this will require obedience to the laws of the King. So to this end, I think the command was to become so purified that not only were our spirits and souls pure, but that the actions of our bodies eventually become sanctified as well in obedience to the Lord. I think the conviction of the Lord comes upon us not just to show us we are in need of a Savior, but to compel us unto ever increasing obedience, so as to be ever more pleasing to God.

And here's the tricky part. It's also the part that, like a bright bolt of lightning, starkly shows us WHY we aren't to judge. And then, of course, my answer to you is: of course He doesn't want me to sin with my body. But then,here again, you will also get two groups of men who will both approve of your post, and yet one of them is focused o n the outside of their own (and everyone elses) cup.

There are many balls to be juggled at once and we are clumsy and sluggish. Drop one ball and you are no longer juggling.

In fact, your statement that He wants our bodies to be blameless too requires the juggling of many balls, just itself, or the balance and rhythm is lost.

H. Richard · Nov 17, 2018

Zachary said:
... many Scriptures in the NT which are warnings of losing salvation!

But, I'm really not telling you anything ...
what I am doing is showing you these Scripture verses!

Are you spiritually blind, or are you just choosing to reject clear Scripture?

What would make some sense is for you to just say that ...
you prefer to believe in verses such as John 3:16.

Zachary, yes there are many scriptures that warn people about sin but a child of God losing salvation is not one of them. God does not start what He can not finish.

Anyone trusting in Jesus' work on the cross WILL BE SAVED. Salvation is the work of God, not man.

If you look at the scripture stories about the people of God you will see that their salvation was not dependent on what they did as far as sin in their lives. David was a man of faith in God but in his later life he committed sins of idolatry. But that did not cause God to reject him.

God is able to keep His children and will not lose any of them. Why don't you believe God when He said
Acts 10:14-15
14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
NKJV

Your idea that God will kick His children out of His family because they commit a sin of the flesh shows me that you have no idea of the love that God poured out on mankind when His Son shed His righteous blood to pay for their sins of the flesh.

All my sins of the flesh were, past tense, paid for on the cross. This is where I have placed my faith, on His work, not mine for like Paul, I have no confidence in my flesh.
Phil 3:2-3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Helen · Nov 17, 2018

Episkopos said:
Grace is the power to keep the law without human effort. It is the power of a new life in Christ whereby we do things from the love of God...because we desire this more than anything. It is a change of nature.

The irony of it all is that when we focus on the law...we fail at both the relationship with God AND the law. But if our focus is on Jesus then we fulfill the law automatically as it were.

Good word.
As I was reading through this thread to catch up...I was thinking the same thing and was going to post same.....then I came across your post here.
When, and so many seem to..focus upon "keeping the law"...as Paul says ...we are fallen from focusing on Him and His grace.
The focus should never be the law...it is bondage.

Jesus gave us the two commandments LOVE and LOVE....if that is where our heart is ( and should be, in thanks to Him) then keeping the law is effortless not a burden, not a struggle.

Yet, even on this site with so many seasoned Christians posting..they bleat on about the law like sheep...looking at the law rather than rejoicing in our victory in it as we walk close to Father... legalists miss The Victory and Joy which comes through Christ and our walking in His love.
Our peace and strength comes via our confident love for Him and in all He has done. "The Joy of the Lord is our strength"

How sad that the law is turned into such a heavy weight by some..when it was changed into a yoke of love with our Lord...and in Him, we keep it.

Episkopos · Nov 17, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
Good word.
As I was reading through this thread to catch up...I was thinking the same thing and was going to post same.....then I came across your post here.
When, and so many seem to..focus upon "keeping the law"...as Paul says ...we are fallen from focusing on Him and His grace.
The focus should never be the law...it is bondage.

Jesus gave us the two commandments LOVE and LOVE....if that is where our heart is ( and should be, in thanks to Him) then keeping the law is effortless not a burden, not a struggle.

Yet, even on this site with so many seasoned Christians posting..they bleat on about the law like sheep...looking at the law rather than rejoicing in our victory in it as we walk close to Father... legalists miss The Victory and Joy which comes through Christ and our walking in His love.
Our peace and strength comes via our confident love for Him and in all He has done. "The Joy of the Lord is our strength"

How sad that the law is turned into such a heavy weight by some..when it was changed into a yoke of love with our Lord...and in Him, we keep it.

Amen. I see the law as a gauge...like a voltmeter. You stick a voltmeter in the wall socket to see if there is power there.

Now the voltmeter is NOT a source of power...but a revealer of power.

So it is with the law. We can't bring power to our homes with a voltmeter. Neither can we bring power to our lives by the law. Grace is POWER from heaven. It is a hookup to Heaven Central.

When we gauge the grace of God by the fulfillment of the law...we see that the law is being fulfilled. Then we know that grace is present. This is like an electrician checking for power in the wall socket. When there is power...the LIGHTS GO ON!

justbyfaith · Nov 17, 2018

stunnedbygrace said:
that He wants our bodies to be blameless too requires the juggling of many balls,

Nevertheless, God speaks of the redemption of the body in scripture (Romans 8:23); and I would contend that this can be in past and present tense for believers who are dwelling on the earth (Galatians 4:5-7; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ephesians 5:30-32, 1 John 3:5; Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11).

"ByGrace" said:
Yet, even on this site with so many seasoned Christians posting..they bleat on about the law like sheep...looking at the law rather than rejoicing in our victory in it as we walk close to Father... legalists miss The Victory and Joy which comes through Christ and our walking in His love.

There is a time and a place for legalism (Galatians 3:24-25).

H. Richard · Nov 17, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Nevertheless, God speaks of the redemption of the body in scripture (Romans 8:23); and I would contend that this can be in past and present tense for believers who are dwelling on the earth (Galatians 4:5-7; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ephesians 5:30-32, 1 John 3:5; Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:11).

There is a time and a place for legalism (Galatians 3:24-25).

The rest of Galatians;
Gal 3:24-29
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. ===]there will be no time in the future when the law rules over the children of God.

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJV

justbyfaith · Nov 17, 2018

H. Richard said:
The rest of Galatians;
Gal 3:24-29
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. ===]there will be no time in the future when the law rules over the children of God.

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJV

I have no arguments with your above post. It is basically besides the point of what I said that you were responding to, however. My point was that the law is useful as a tool of evangelism so there is a time and a place for preaching it.

I don't know if you would be able to find it on the internet, but maybe try to find the teaching on "Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort.

mjrhealth · Nov 17, 2018

brakelite said:
But by the power of the Spirit their lives are lived in harmony with the law, because they have love in the heart...and love is the fulfilling of the law. So the laws of God are still valid...still binding...but the manner by which obedience is manifested is now by and through the power of the Most High working in the life of the believer. Not as Israel attempted to accomplish through saying to Moses, Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do". And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Israel tried to obey in their own strength. God did not ask them to make any promises of obedience. Nor does He ask us to do likewise. But He does ask us to obey. And we do that through our surrender to His will in our lives, for Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16

Well at least you got that part.

But again we are obedient by faith not by any law keeping, and as you just put it, Love fulfilled, the requirements of the law, and what was the requirement of the law, in that a sin offering must be made for every law broken(sin).

Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Jesus fulfilled that requirement of the law through Hi blood sacrifice(death), That is why,

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Because He has already paid the price in full, so for those in Christ the law and sin can no longer condemn them.

Therefore if any man is troubled by sin, or his failure to keep the law has condemned himself for He has not accepted that price that Christ paid for us in FULL, Once and once only, He will not be doing it again.

As is was written in the OT

Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

and

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

and too put it all into context

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Do you know why laws are written, it is so we can set a standard for those who do not walk in love, it says, " if you do this you will be punished", but never stopped them from doing it anyway, that was before governments discovered they could get rich by making more.

So if you are In Christ and walking in Love, than the law is not for you

Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

and what was His commandment

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

It is enough.

justbyfaith · Nov 17, 2018

Romans 13:8-10, Owe no man anything, except to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 5:2-3, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6, And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

1 John 2:3-4, And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The point of these scriptures being that if I love my neighbor as myself, I am not going to commit adultery with his wife, I am not going to kill him or anyone that he loves, I am not going to steal from him, I am not going to lie about him, I am not going to desire anything that he has, and I am not going to violate any of the other commandments that tell me how to treat my neighbor with dignity, respect, and love.

The love of God is defined as the keeping of His commandments in these scriptures. What I think this means is that the commandments are the specifics of the love of the Lord.

Also, if I say that I know God but don't keep His commandments, I am a liar because if I knew God then I would have His love in my heart and
the keeping of His commandments (which, again, are the specifics on how to love with the love of God) will be the result as a matter of course.

Helen · Nov 17, 2018

Amen @justbyfaith said well ...

Zachary · Nov 17, 2018

brakelite said:
@mjrhealth @Zachary
Can I invite you both please to share with us what your understanding of the following passages means to you.

Yes, you can invite ... but, I won't answer.

I asked you to comment on my signature,
which is a nice acid test to see ...
if you have any idea what's going on in the NT.

bbyrd009 · Nov 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
It is basically besides the point of what I said that you were responding to, however.

no kidding

many will cry LordLord

maybe cheerleaders are essential too?

justbyfaith · Nov 18, 2018

Zachary said:
Yes, you can invite ... but, I won't answer.

I asked you to comment on my signature,
which is a nice acid test to see ...
if you have any idea what's going on in the NT.

What did you think of my answer?

justbyfaith · Nov 18, 2018

Romans 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.

Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Helen · Nov 18, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Romans 5:5, And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.

Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Love those verse...

justbyfaith · Nov 19, 2018

H. Richard said:
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. ===]there will be no time in the future when the law rules over the children of God.

Actually, a tutor is no longer needed when the student is fully trained. Therefore when I am fully trained to be obedient to God, the law is no longer needed as something that I have to follow consciously. Because I have been trained to follow it unconsciously; and therefore the conscious requirement is no longer needed.

As children of the Lord, we are governed from the inside by the law of God (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7; Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

It no longer condemns us from the outside (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

mjrhealth · Nov 19, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
How sad that the law is turned into such a heavy weight by some.

The "law"is only a heavy weight by those who at=re burdened in trying to keep it. Jesus never dies so us "gentiles" could keep the law. He died so we would not be condemned for our sins, and the Holy Spirit has no part in us keeping the law, he was given so we could come into the truth...

justbyfaith said:
Also, if I say that I know God but don't keep His commandments, I am a liar because if I knew God then I would have His love in my heart and
the keeping of His commandments (which, again, are the specifics on how to love with the love of God) will be the result as a matter of course.

Well we also have this problem done we,

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

For no matter how much "christians" harp on about it, none keep the law, not one

to the pharisees

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

and to teh rest of us,

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

even those terrorist, child abusers, when ever we say" kill them" even in our minds, we have sinned.

I have yet to see one single person upon this earth that keeps the law, not one.

Glad my salvation is through Christ and not Christianity and the His rightousness will be my covering cause I certainly have none of my own.

justbyfaith · Nov 19, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Well we also have this problem done we,

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

For no matter how much "christians" harp on about it, none keep the law, not one

All of us come short of the glory of God in that we have sinned (past tense). This is not to say that we are obligated to sin in the present or future (1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 8:12; 1 John 3:6 w/ 1 John 2:17; 1 John 3:9).

mjrhealth said:
to the pharisees

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

A point to be made is that Jesus said this to those who were religious; and this before the Cross (before the Holy Spirit was given, John 7:39).

Also, what do you make of Romans 8:4?

mjrhealth said:
and to teh rest of us,

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

even those terrorist, child abusers, when ever we say" kill them" even in our minds, we have sinned.

I have yet to see one single person upon this earth that keeps the law, not one.

Glad my salvation is through Christ and not Christianity and the His righteousness will be my covering cause I certainly have none of my own.

Indeed, Jesus said in the context of that, that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, we will in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20). This is qualified by Galatians 2:21 and Philippians 3:9.

Some people have an outward righteousness based on law-keeping. They are "churchy" or religious and their righteousness is only outward. They are not born again but want to appear to be so to other people. If anyone is truly in Christ, however, they are a new creature; old things have passed away: behold, all things have become new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17). This means they have obtained an inward righteousness from the Lord. The love of the Lord is in their hearts (Romans 5:5); and this is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6; Romans 8:4); seeing it is not in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

But of course I want to tell you also that our salvation is in essence, not our becoming sinlessly perfect in order to make ourselves worthy of heaven; but that it rather rests in the forgiveness of sins that is offered to you in Christ (Romans 4:7-8).

If you are forgiven much, you will also love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:17-20).

bbyrd009 · Nov 19, 2018

justbyfaith said:
but that it rather rests in the forgiveness of sins that is offered to you in Christ

when you confess, right?
i mean as opposed to...Heb or whoever, HR, who do not need to ever confess in their model

Helen · Nov 19, 2018

mjrhealth said:
The "law"is only a heavy weight by those who at=re burdened in trying to keep it. Jesus never dies so us "gentiles" could keep the law. He died so we would not be condemned for our sins, and the Holy Spirit has no part in us keeping the law, he was given so we could come into the truth...

Well we also have this problem done we,

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

For no matter how much "christians" harp on about it, none keep the law, not one

to the pharisees

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

and to teh rest of us,

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

even those terrorist, child abusers, when ever we say" kill them" even in our minds, we have sinned.

I have yet to see one single person upon this earth that keeps the law, not one.

Glad my salvation is through Christ and not Christianity and the His rightousness will be my covering cause I certainly have none of my own.

Yes Amen!

.....

This says it all I think .

Believers stay righteous through their obedience

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