BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

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justbyfaith

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I believe however that every singular verse can stand on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Examining context, whether immediate or topical, only serves to help add insight to each individual scripture. Context never nullifies the truth of what a verse is saying in its own right.
 

farouk

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I believe however that every singular verse can stand on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Examining context, whether immediate or topical, only serves to help add insight to each individual scripture. Context never nullifies the truth of what a verse is saying in its own right.
But it seems you are insisting that 'baptised for the remission of sins' means 'in order to receive the remission of sins'; whereas a study of the subject will likely reveal that it means 'baptised on account of the remission of sins': i.e., they believed, and so were baptised because they believed. This is also exactly what Acts 2.41 indicates, a few verses later.
 

Taken

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In the context of Acts 2:38-39, it says that 3,000 souls were added to the church that day. How did they do the counting? Faith is invisible to the human eye.

What does that have to do with your point of water baptism?

It should only be obvious that Peter baptized in water the same as John the Baptist baptized in water.

I don't read that in Scripture. Nor do I read Peter was told to Baptize in Water.

That is what is normally being referred to when baptism is mentioned in scripture.

Not according to my understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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What does that have to do with your point of water baptism?

That is something that I believe you can figure out on your own, if you are willing to think about it only a little tiny bit.

I don't read that in Scripture. Nor do I read Peter was told to Baptize in Water.

Then I would say to you that I think that 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 applies to your situation.

Not according to my understanding.

Same as comment immediately above.
 

justbyfaith

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But it seems you are insisting that 'baptised for the remission of sins' means 'in order to receive the remission of sins'; whereas a study of the subject will likely reveal that it means 'baptised on account of the remission of sins': i.e., they believed, and so were baptised because they believed. This is also exactly what Acts 2.41 indicates, a few verses later.
So then, is baptism invalid if you did not have the Holy Spirit before you were baptized?

It seems to me that this is limiting baptism to those who are already saved; when it can be a starting point for many people to come to that point of being saved. I believe that Acts 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise. If remission of sins always happens before baptism, why does the Holy Spirit come as the result of baptism according to that promise of scripture?

I think you are ruling out the power of the action as being a point of contact for a person's faith.

Yes, a man can be saved without ever being baptized (Romans 10:13); but this does not mean that baptism doesn't have the power to save a person (1 Peter 3:20-21) if it is acting as a confession of Jesus Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32). This type of confession can be more powerful in a person's life than simply going forward at a Crusade or in a church service, impaho. I feel it is more of a confession; being more visible and more public: and therefore the rest of that person's Christian life will be bolder because the beginning of their walk with Christ was so bold; and what you begin with tends to have a lot to do with how you continue in the faith.
 
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farouk

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So then, is baptism invalid if you did not have the Holy Spirit before you were baptized?

It seems to me that this is limiting baptism to those who are already saved; when it can be a starting point for many people to come to that point of being saved. I believe that Acts 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise. If remission of sins always happens before baptism, why does the Holy Spirit come as the result of baptism according to that promise of scripture?

I think you are ruling out the power of the action as being a point of contact for a person's faith.

Yes, a man can be saved without ever being baptized (Romans 10:13); but this does not mean that baptism doesn't have the power to save a person if it is acting as a confession of Jesus Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32). This type of confession can be more powerful in a person's life than simply going forward at a Crusade or in a church service, impaho. I feel it is more of a confession; being more visible and more public: and therefore the rest of that person's Christian life will be bolder because the beginning of their walk with Christ was so bold; and what you begin with tends to have a lot to do with how you continue in the faith.
Well, the order in Scripture is clear from Acts 2.41: faith first, then baptism as a public profession of what is already true.
 
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BreadOfLife

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No...flesh is flesh in every context.

But I see you don't really want to talk about what the symbolism was actually about throughout the entire history of baptism, and only want to go on and on about the unrelated make up of the setting in which it occurred...so, never mind.
The Water is a necessary element of Baptism - just as bread and wine are necessary elements for the Eucharist.

It was CHRIST who stated that we must be born of Water and Spirit.
That didn't come from ME or anybody else . . .
 

ScottA

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The Water is a necessary element of Baptism - just as bread and wine are necessary elements for the Eucharist.

It was CHRIST who stated that we must be born of Water and Spirit.
That didn't come from ME or anybody else . . .
Necessary for the traditional ceremony or practice - but not for salvation, not for entering the kingdom.

The use of water is indeed like the use of bread and wine...but the elements are nothing more than symbolic. The commandment is not that the ceremony is mandatory for salvation, but rather mandatory for service to God...that is to demonstrate how things work via the use of substituted elements.
 

justbyfaith

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They gladly received his word (faith), repented, were baptized, received remission of sins, and then received the gift of the Holy Ghost, in that order.

Now in Acts chapter 10 it must be considered that that chapter is about a time of transition in the church in which God had to prove that Gentiles could be saved in order to include them in the church (because there was much opposition coming from the circumcision group to Gentiles being saved). So God went beyond the usual boundaries to prove that they were to be included in the body. Note however that when Cornelius and friends received the Holy Spirit, Peter considered that they still needed to be baptized in the name of the Lord. "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized even as we?" This shows that Peter at the very least (on whose testimony Christ would build His church) believed that baptism was at the very least important.

re #106.
 
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Taken

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That is something that I believe you can figure out on your own, if you are willing to think about it only a little tiny bit.

I am not the one pushing Scripture says what it clearly does not. That would be you.

Then I would say to you that I think that 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 applies to your situation.

Apparently you have neglected to observe, I do not agree with what you think.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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Necessary for the traditional ceremony or practice - but not for salvation, not for entering the kingdom.

The use of water is indeed like the use of bread and wine...but the elements are nothing more than symbolic. The commandment is not that the ceremony is mandatory for salvation, but rather mandatory for service to God...that is to demonstrate how things work via the use of substituted elements.
And since YOU say that the use of Water in Baptism is the same as the use of bread and wine in confecting the Eucharist - then it IS necessary. In the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 - Jesus relegates the Eucharist to a SALVIFIC role.

At the Last Supper - He shows us HOW to confect the sacrament.
 

justbyfaith

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I am not the one pushing Scripture says what it clearly does not. That would be you.

I suppose we could start going back and forth over who is interpreting scripture correctly and who is not (see Galatians 5:15). I would just encourage you to keep reading and meditating on the word (Psalms 1); and I will do the same.

Apparently you have neglected to observe, I do not agree with what you think.

I have observed that most clearly; and I believe that you still have some reading to do and some understanding to gain on the issue at hand.
 

Enoch111

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Does not regeneration happen when we receive the Holy Spirit?
Correct. And water baptism is AFTER regeneration, not before. Please note:

ACTS 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [born again through the Word, the Gospel]

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [the Holy Ghost given simultaneously]

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[tongues, a spiritual gift from the Spirit, manifested]

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [then the issue of baptism in water]

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. [then the commandment to be baptized by immersion in water]

Also, it is important to note that speaking in tongues is NOT the norm after regeneration. This too is supported by Scripture:Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41). No mention of 3,000 speaking in tongues. Had it happened it would have surely been recorded. It is only because the Jews with Peter were skeptical that tongues was manifested as a sign of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Kindly note that "the Word" is critical, as Peter already revealed, and you failed to take into account. "Born of water" means regenerated through hearing the *water* of the Word of God -- the Gospel -- as the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces. So yes, the RCC, the EOC, etc. are DEAD WRONG, and they promote a false salvation.
 
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ScottA

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And since YOU say that the use of Water in Baptism is the same as the use of bread and wine in confecting the Eucharist - then it IS necessary. In the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 - Jesus relegates the Eucharist to a SALVIFIC role.

At the Last Supper - He shows us HOW to confect the sacrament.
And it is (a salvific role)...just not for the person doing it.

He did not say that it is salvation. Likewise He did not say to literally eat His flesh. But it is the practice of water baptism that leads to salvation by demonstrating how salvation works. It is a service to God like the practice of the law - which does not save, but leads to salvation in Christ.

Time to understand the meaning behind the practice - time to come to maturity. You have made the whole thing into idol worship. Have you learned nothing? You may as well put your faith in the law.
 
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GodsGrace

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You have to remember 1 John 1:7 is spoken to those who are ALREADY Christians, those who ALREADY have been baptized.

The washing away of sins BEGINS at the point of water baptism and CONTINUES to wash away all sins as long as the Christian conditionally walks in the light.
I can't think of any verse where Jesus says that our salvation depends on our being baptized. He DID say to be baptized in the name of the Trinity in Mathew 28...but in every other instance He said that our salvation was based on our works.

Could you please post some verses where Jesus said we MUST be baptized?

Are you saying that if I am a follower of Jesus and am not baptized, I will be lost at death?
 

BreadOfLife

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And it is (a salvific role)...just not for the person doing it.

He did not say that it is salvation. Likewise He did not say to literally eat His flesh. But it is the practice of water baptism that leads to salvation by demonstrating how salvation works. It is a service to God like the practice of the law - which does not save, but leads to salvation in Christ.

Time to understand the meaning behind the practice - time to come to maturity. You have made the whole thing into idol worship. Have you learned nothing? You may as well put your faith in the law.
WRONG.

Jesus said that UNLESS you are baptized you are NOT saved (Mark 16:16) and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:5).
Regarding the Eucharist - which Jesus FIRMLY stated was His Body and Blood (John 6:55) - He said that UNLESS you consume it - you nave NO LIFE within you. Conversely, He insisted that if you DO consume Him in the Eucharist, that person has ETERNAL LIFE and He will raise them on the last day (John 6:40). Yes, it IS about the person who is doing it.

AGAIN - these aren't MY claims - but the promises of Christ, who is Almighty GOD.
 
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BreadOfLife

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I can't think of any verse where Jesus says that our salvation depends on our being baptized. He DID say to be baptized in the name of the Trinity in Mathew 28...but in every other instance He said that our salvation was based on our works.

Could you please post some verses where Jesus said we MUST be baptized?

Are you saying that if I am a follower of Jesus and am not baptized, I will be lost at death?
Matt. 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Doesn't get ANY clearer than that.
 

ScottA

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WRONG.

Jesus said that UNLESS you are baptized you are NOT saved (Mark 16:16) and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:5).
Regarding the Eucharist - which Jesus FIRMLY stated was His Body and Blood (John 6:55) - He said that UNLESS you consume it - you nave NO LIFE within you. Conversely, He insisted that if you DO consume Him in the Eucharist, that person has ETERNAL LIFE and He will raise them on the last day (John 6:40). Yes, it IS about the person who is doing it.

AGAIN - these aren't MY claims - but the promises of Christ, who is Almighty GOD.
If you want to believe that Jesus picked up bread and said it was His body - and it really, really was His actual/literal body, and He did not mean it symbolically. Good luck with that!

But now I can no longer have an adult conversation with you.
 

Taken

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I suppose we could start going back and forth over who is interpreting scripture correctly and who is not (see Galatians 5:15). I would just encourage you to keep reading and meditating on the word (Psalms 1); and I will do the same.



I have observed that most clearly; and I believe that you still have some reading to do and some understanding to gain on the issue at hand.


Not moved by your thoughts...

Post # 96

Acts 2:38-39
....it should be obvious Peter Baptized in water...

Not impressed you think yourself qualified to lecture me, after you are the one, preaching what is not Scriptural.

"Your" wisdom is clearly worldly.
1 Cor 3:19.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Ac28

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Matt. 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Doesn't get ANY clearer than that.

It doesn't get ANY clearer than THIS
Mt 15:24

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jn 1:31 This shows that the REASON Baptism with water was used was because Christ's purpose of His ministry was to appear to Israel

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Nothing that Christ commanded or directed during His earthly ministry pertains to any Gentile living today.

You're a Gentile and Gentiles have ONLY one apostle, Paul. Christ was an apostle that was sent ONLY to Israel. If you ever get an urge to know TRUTH FOR TODAY, the ONLY place you'll find it is in Paul's 7 post-Acts Epistles. Nowhere in the other 59 books will you find any group of people that will be able to spend eternity in the Heaven of Heavens.

Christ didn't promise me or you anything, during His earthly ministry. He promised us every possible blessing in the Highest Heaven, Eph 1:3, through the pen of the Sent One Christ selected, the Apostle Paul, the ONLY choice of Jesus Christ to be our ONLY teacher, preacher, and minister, during this present ALL-GENTILE 2000 year period.
 
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