Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

Episkopos · Nov 17, 2018

friend of said:
I always took the vineyard as representating the world in general and the produce of the vineyard as the pleasing righteous deeds and faith of God's children. Those surrendered and controlled by the Holy Spirit would be ripe with fruits of the Holy Spirit in God's vineyard (spiritual Israel)

More on topic, I don't believe God is finished with physical Israel. In Genesis 17:7 God states his covenant with Israel is everlasting:

"I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you."

He mentions "your descendants" meaning physical Israel in this passage.

This is not Israel you are referring to. Abraham means "father of many nations." Not just one nation. This is before Israel was born.

We trace the history of the physical representation of that covenant through a physical circumcision. But there is far more to God's eternal covenant than what is physical.

Episkopos · Nov 17, 2018

icxn said:
I know this is somewhat off topic, and I hope HiddenInHim will forgive me, but the story of Noah you quoted is not entirely irrelevant.

Noah represent God the Father, the true Husbandman. The vineyard is of course the people of Israel whose evil deeds, as if intoxicating wine, caused Him to uncover Himself. The uncovering of God symbolizes the mystery of the Incarnation. God’s nakedness* is none other than Jesus Christ whose humility and uncomeliness (Isaiah 53:2) the Jews (Ham) treated with ridicule. Unlike them, the Saints of the Old Testament symbolized by Shem, since he was the firstborn, and those of the New Testament, Japheth, the last son, treated Him with reverence, accepting the mystery of the Incarnation. It says, “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem;” This enlargement is the multitudes of the Gentiles that believed the Gospel and joined the tents of Shem.

The walking backwards and covering the nakedness of their father is exactly what this interpretative method does. Using the mysteries revealed in the New Testament as garment, to cover the ‘nakedness’ of the Old Testament letter.

_____________
* Nakedness here refers of course to the reproductive organs that is yet another indirect reference to the Son of God. I'm talking about the fathering of children.

Shem means name...

The Gentiles also add to the number of Shem....as God seeks for a people of all nations to bear His "name".

Acts 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited to take out of the Gentiles a people for His name.

Hidden In Him · Nov 17, 2018

friend of said:
More on topic, I don't believe God is finished with physical Israel. In Genesis 17:7 God states his covenant with Israel is everlasting:

"I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you."

He mentions "your descendants" meaning physical Israel in this passage.

Well I agree with you. But the detractors spiritualize "descendants" here to simply mean spiritual descendants, as you can see our friend Episkopos did in the next post. Hence the reason for this thread, LoL.

brakelite · Nov 17, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Ok, then with you let me proceed to my next question, Brakelite.

In verse 14, Jesus defines Himself as "the heir" of the vineyard, whom they decide to kill. Now, if He is the heir of the vineyard and the vineyard is Jerusalem, doesn't that mean that He is Heir to the throne of Jerusalem, and therefore not yet done with literal Israel?

Think about the following in relation to the OT vineyard, and the context of the parable.
KJV John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Where is literal Israel in the context of that verse?

Hidden In Him · Nov 17, 2018

brakelite said:
Think about the following in relation to the OT vineyard, and the context of the parable.
KJV John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Where is literal Israel in the context of that verse?

Well, this parable is not about literal Israel at all, but rather about how He would manifest Himself through those who abide in Him (John 14:22). Now I suppose you could relate this parable to spiritual Israel in a sense, but on first glance nowhere is Israel mentioned in this teaching (which extends to John 16:16), so that would be taking it beyond the immediate context.

Why do you ask?

farouk · Nov 17, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
His spiritual kingdom on earth, or literal Israel? which one?

It's good to be clear about dispensational distinctions.

Hidden In Him · Nov 17, 2018

farouk said:
It's good to be clear about dispensational distinctions.

Amen. And also good to discern between those verses that refer to literal Israel and those that refer to spiritual Israel. I lay far more weight on the spiritual than the natural, of course, but to do away with the literal entirely is to misinterpret God's ultimate plan eschatologically.

But you are opening a can of worms by using the word "dispensational," brother, as you may soon find out, LoL.

farouk · Nov 17, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Amen. And also good to discern between those verses that refer to literal Israel and those that refer to spiritual Israel. I lay far more weight on the spiritual than the natural, of course, but to do away with the literal entirely is to misinterpret God's ultimate plan eschatologically.

But you are opening a can of worms by using the word "dispensational," brother, as you may soon find out, LoL.

If it wakes ppl up, then, good!

farouk · Nov 17, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
But you are opening a can of worms by using the word "dispensational," brother, as you may soon find out, LoL.

PS:

In our correct dispensational place, we belong with the carcasses of the discarded animals whose blood was used for sacrifices under the old economy. As those carcasses were burned without the camp - beyond the pale of anything respectable religiously - so this is where we belong in relation to the old economy and any of professing Chistendom that still vainly tries to imitate the old economy.

"For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach." (Hebrews 13.11-13)

That despised place of reproach is where we belong. The despised Nazarene rejected by the religious world is there and He is with us by His grace.

If we know our place dispensationally, not one iota of religious respectability is left for us: but we are identified with the Lord Jesus, by His grace.

"When we see Thy love unshaken—
Outside the camp.
Scorned by man, by God forsaken—
Outside the camp.
Thy loved cross alone can charm us;
Shame need now no more alarm us;
Glad we follow, nought can harm us—
Outside the camp."

Enoch111 · Nov 17, 2018

brakelite said:
KJV John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Where is literal Israel in the context of that verse?

You have taken John 15:1 out of context and that can only produce confusion. Who is being addressed here and to what purpose? Also this passage is about ONE VINE and the connected branches, speaking of Christ and the Church.

However, the parable in question (Luke 20) was addressed to the chief priests, scribes and elders (the enemies of Christ) and was about the VINEYARD of Israel. Big difference. That parable is about the failure of Israel (with all its privileges) to produce true righteousness, and why God would destroyed the wicked religious leaders of Israel (the husbandmen who failed to produce fruit from the vineyard.)

Hidden In Him · Nov 17, 2018

farouk said:
PS:

In our correct dispensational place, we belong with the carcasses of the discarded animals whose blood was used for sacrifices under the old economy. As those carcasses were burned without the camp - beyond the pale of anything respectable religiously - so this is where we belong in relation to the old economy and any of professing Chistendom that still vainly tries to imitate the old economy.

"For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach." (Hebrews 13.11-13)

That despised place of reproach is where we belong. The despised Nazarene rejected by the religious world is there and He is with us by His grace.

If we know our place dispensationally, not one iota of religious respectability is left for us: but we are identified with the Lord Jesus, by His grace.

"When we see Thy love unshaken—
Outside the camp.
Scorned by man, by God forsaken—
Outside the camp.
Thy loved cross alone can charm us;
Shame need now no more alarm us;
Glad we follow, nought can harm us—
Outside the camp."

Very interesting. I've never heard those verses expounded like that before.

Now, in all honesty, I think the parallel is more specifically to those who were likewise suffering physically along with Christ, whereas if you were bringing it up in connection with Dispensationalists just taking a little heat, I'd have to say it's not quite that bad for us.

But the insight and the parallel there is excellent. Thanks for sharing it with me.

brakelite · Nov 17, 2018

quietthinker said:
LOL sbg....I'm the coconut man fallerer

Oh No!!! Seriously. Bro. You don't look like an islander. Leave that sorta practice to the experts. Glad though you are mending well. I am laid up somewhat myself. Overstretched some muscles in the leg playing golf!!!!! Now got some major inflammation in the knee ...would be nice to be able to walk anywhere...let alone the beach. Hobbling …

So, now for everyone/anyone else, please try and follow along. First though, this is an interesting discussion, but I would be the last to let it devolve into an all out battle. You remember the phrase "a hill to die on?" Well, I don't consider this topic a hill to die on. I think we can permit each other to disagree without becoming unfriendly right? And still appreciate, even though we may disagree, where we are all coming from. So....

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Ge 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
Ge 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Ge 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Matt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Hosea 11:1 ¶ When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Matt.1:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.....

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
Mark1:9 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Nu 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
Mark1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

De 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Matt.4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

De 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Matt.4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

De 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Now, just in case you didn't get it last time....

Psalm 80:8 ¶ Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
John 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jesus walked over the same ground as Israel. But the name Israel means overcomer...Israel failed to live up to its name. Jesus did not fail. Only Jesus is worthy of that name. He is the true Israel. Now catch this...

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

So as the children of Israel were a corporate nation of promise...but failed...so the children of spiritual Israe, Jesus, will not fail as they walk in Him. Those who overcome by faith, are with Jesus, corporate Israel.

Enoch111 · Nov 17, 2018

brakelite said:
Those who overcome by faith, are with Jesus, corporate Israel.

And yet Revelation 7 and 14 make a CLEAR AND FULL DISTINCTION between the twelve tribes of Israel and the Church. That should mean something to those confused about the Church and holding to Replacement Theology.

friend of · Nov 17, 2018

Just wanted to add this one.

Ezekial 16:59-63
59 Yes, thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath, breaking the covenant; 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways, and be ashamed when I* take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and give them to you as daughters, but not on account of my* covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 in order that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I forgive you all that you have done, says the Lord God.

ScottA · Nov 18, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Who or what is the vineyard? The vineyard in this Parable is Israel, yes?

No, not Israel, the vineyard was all nations. As this was the promise given to Abraham, that "all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him." Israel was the husbandman.

Hidden In Him · Nov 18, 2018

ScottA said:
No, not Israel, the vineyard was all nations. As this was the promise given to Abraham, that "all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him." Israel was the husbandman.

Ok. So then how do you interpret the vineyard in v.15, which describes the Lord's crucifixion, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him."

bbyrd009 · Nov 18, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Ok. So then how do you interpret the vineyard in v.15, which describes the Lord's crucifixion, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him."

wadr cannot be Jesus' crucifixion as Jesus gave up his spirit, no one killed Him imo.
or maybe i'm wrong there, this is just now really coming up, but imo that should maybe be read like the Talents passage, iow with the understanding that Talents were money and not what the RCC has made that into? hmm, dunno

Hidden In Him · Nov 18, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
wadr cannot be Jesus' crucifixion as Jesus gave up his spirit, no one killed Him imo.
or maybe i'm wrong there, this is just now really coming up, but imo that should maybe be read like the Talents passage, iow with the understanding that Talents were money and not what the RCC has made that into? hmm, dunno

Well yes, He was obedient unto death. But I think He also had some help in it. I don't think He just killed Himself, LoL.

But what's this about what the RCC has made out of the talents parable? Not sure I follow you.

Hidden In Him · Nov 18, 2018

Jay Ross said:
The parable of the Wicked Tenants is contrasted by the Parable of a Man who had Planted a Fig Tree who continued to look for fruit from the tree for three seasons, and when he had found no fruit, he asked the husbandman of his garden to destroy the fig tree, but the husbandman interceded on behalf of the Fig Tree and asked for another season to see if the Fig Tree would bear fruit by the end of that season so that the Fig Tree would live... As has been suggested above, the present day "priest" need to consider their position in Christ and the teaching that they are giving to verify that it is in accordance with the understanding of God.

I agree. Thanks for the post and sorry that I did not respond until now. This parable does run a parallel in a sense with the Parable of the Unfruitful Fig Tree. In this parable those at fault are the husbandmen who refuse to allow His servants to collect the harvest (which I believe is righteousness - Proverbs 11:30; Amos 6:12; James 3:18; Hebrews 12:11; Proverbs 1:11), whereas in the Parable of the Fig Tree those at fault are also the vineyard, i.e. the nation themselves, in keeping with Jesus' statement that it was a wicked generation.

So this parable is directed especially at the leadership and dated to the time leading up to Christ's crucifixion, and then the judgment that followed upon the Jewish leadership after Rome destroyed their seats of power, and spiritual leadership was then essentially turned over to the apostles of Christ for those Jews who were still looking for reasons to believe. I would date the Fig Tree parable as applying to the time After the crucifixion when the apostles were still trying to preach to the Jews to have ears to hear what the Spirit was saying and bear fruit, up until Acts 28 when Paul finally declared to them that God was now turning to the Gentiles.

About your application to today, those who lead the church do indeed bear a grave responsibility, and there are those who would crucify Christ anew today if He came because they reject many of the things He tries to speak to the churches. The most notable to me would be that He still desires to manifest Himself supernaturally (both in spiritual gifts and spiritual fruit) through a temple not made by hands, as He was trying to tell the Sanhedrin through Stephen. I think those who say the supernatural gifts are over are at least in that sense rejecting Christ and casting Him out of the vineyard by denouncing what to Him may be the single-most important message of all.

What would you say are the messages He would preach today? Certainly there are more than one, and I notice you are strong on keeping the Sabbath. What is it He and His servants would (and thus should) be preaching today to bring forth the fruit of righteousness from His vineyard?

Blessings in Christ, and sorry again for the slow response.

VictoryinJesus · Nov 18, 2018

farouk said:
"For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

Great post Farouk. All of it.

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