How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

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Dave L

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It was a promise he fulfilled. Saying credit is an attempt to spin.
If Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then he saved sinners from the foundation of the world, whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
 
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CoreIssue

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The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Pleas consider the following proof texts.

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)

I believe they applied to all of humanity. But the mosaic covenant only applied to Israel and is now annulled.

Christ never said any of the 10 commandments do not apply to the Church.

Other covenants, such the Noahic Covenant was to all humanity and unending.

Such as the Davidic were only to David.
 

CoreIssue

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If Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then he saved sinners from the foundation of the world, whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

So why were there saints waiting in paradise that could not leave until Christ resurrected?
 

jaybird

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The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. They called it the Ark of the Covenant because it held the Ten Commandments written in stone. The New Covenant replaced the Old. We use the old for instruction and commentary. But we are not under it.
If Jesus is not our example who is?
 

ScottA

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The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.
Not sure which you are really intending to address, whether it be freewill or God's means of salvation. But the connection is certainly one to be considered.

In the timeless reality of God, both, and quite literally all things, happened "before the foundation of the world." Thus, freewill is not something we do after the fact, or during what is perceived as "these times", but is something we did, that is just now being revealed "each in his own order." Therefore, it is instead correct to say that we "had" free will, just as it is correct to say that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.

God has "created" a means by which He reveals things in what we ironically call "real time" that is not actually real, but only perceived as such. Or if you can receive it...that this is that time. Which is ill-advised, because that means siding with the idea that what was and is "created" is the greater reality...and it is not. "I am" is the greater reality, and there is no other reality, except that which was created for revelation.

So, no, God does not save people that way. But has establish an eternal matter of choice, wherein we now experience those things that are, rather than deciding along the illusion of a timeline that does not actually exist with God.
 
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jaybird

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Why are we now focussing on the law...this thread is about the GOSPEL = Good News...
@Dave L was not speaking about 'The law ' ...he mention how the gospel is so often turned in 'a' law.

You are off topic and sending it down some rabbit hole... LOL

So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.
 

quietthinker

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Jesus fulfilled the law and abolished it on the cross. If you want to follow it, don't forget you cannot heat your house on Saturday in sub zero temps.
Your statement is loose Dave. You don't like the law? What is you don't like? You must have an awful problem with the pronouncements in Psalms
Does fulfilling the law qualify as abolishing it? We are talking about the Ten Commandments aren't we?
 

Nancy

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There are always those who have tried to put the Christian back under the Law, or say that the Law is necessary for salvation and sanctification. It is nothing new, just look at all the New Testament scriptures pertaining directly to the issue: Acts 15 , Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1, 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and most all of Galatians. These verses are speaking against a legalistic view of the Law, one which holds up works of the flesh to gain brownie points with God and or man rather than living by the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Enoch111

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Big difference was Abraham was never born again but we are if saved. Salvation was always a promise for him, not a fact in his lifetime.
Abraham was justified by grace through faith, and born again after the resurrection of Christ (among the spirits of just men made perfect -- Heb 12:22-24).

And these all, (OT saints) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39,40)

The Holy Spirit was promised to the OT saints, and they received Him after Pentecost. Otherwise they could not have been made *perfect* or complete. All the OT saints have been born again because it is an imperative: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is not the water of baptism but the Water of the Word.
 

Helen

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There are always those who have tried to put the Christian back under the Law, or say that the Law is necessary for salvation and sanctification. It is nothing new, just look at all the New Testament scriptures pertaining directly to the issue: Acts 15 , Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1, 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and most all of Galatians. These verses are speaking against a legalistic view of the Law, one which holds up works of the flesh to gain brownie points with God and or man rather than living by the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I liked the opening post...and thought- " Oh good, a thread that is a bit different. " So many of the threads are so much the same...YAWN..
But here we are post #30...and the thread is back to the same old old arguments...and not a new subject at all! :rolleyes:

Oh well, never mind...as Dave says " It could have been a beautiful moment"...he always says that when something 'goes sideways'... :D
 

Nancy

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I liked the opening post...and thought- " Oh good, a thread that is a bit different. " So many of the threads are so much the same...YAWN..
But here we are post #30...and the thread is back to the same old old arguments...and not a new subject at all! :rolleyes:

Oh well, never mind...as Dave says " It could have been a beautiful moment"...he always says that when something 'goes sideways'... :D
You are so right Helen. It is the same old ho-hum "bickering". Maybe God wants us to spend more time in His word and less on here? :oops:
 

CoreIssue

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Abraham was justified by grace through faith, and born again after the resurrection of Christ (among the spirits of just men made perfect -- Heb 12:22-24).



And these all, (OT saints) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39,40)

The Holy Spirit was promised to the OT saints, and they received Him after Pentecost.

For them To have entered heaven when Christ resurrected they had to have been born again.

They were not church which what you said implies.


Otherwise they could not have been made *perfect* or complete. All the OT saints have been born again because it is an imperative: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is not the water of baptism but the Water of the Word.

It is the water from a woman at birth. Physical birth and spiritual birth.

/QUOTE]
 

Helen

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You are so right Helen. It is the same old ho-hum "bickering". Maybe God wants us to spend more time in His word and less on here? :oops:

I must say...that thought so often goes through my mind.
There are SOooo many prayer needs...maybe I should quit Sites and just spend that time in prayer.

Talking of prayer...tomorrow is the court case for Elaine isn't it?
Praying. ✟
 
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Nancy

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I must say...that thought so often goes through my mind.
There are SOooo many prayer needs...maybe I should quit Sites and just spend that time in prayer.

Talking of prayer...tomorrow is the court case for Elaine isn't it?
Praying. ✟
"I must say...that thought so often goes through my mind." Well, there ya have it...confirmation! I know that I will be on here at least a couple times daily but...not as much as in the past.
Tomorrow is Elaine's arraignment. She will plead "not guilty". We will be assigned a lawyer and also a court date for sentencing. I called the town to see if I could speak to the District Attorney and was told I could only speak to him on the second court date. They could set a bail for her but, she is no flight risk and I trust God in all of this anyhow. Thanks for asking after her and for your prayers ♥ I have not seen Truth around here and think about how he is coming along.
 
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Phoneman777

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The gospel was the same for Abraham as it is for us. Only we no longer see through the glass darkly, but now we see face to face.

Salvation was never by works. Works of the law could not save.
Amen. Imagine being in heaven and having Abraham and his friends mocking us "lazy Christians" who got off easy by not having to work for salvation like they all had to before Jesus came and died. That's Dispensationalism for ya.
 

Enoch111

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Imagine being in heaven and having Abraham and his friends mocking us "lazy Christians" who got off easy by not having to work for salvation like they all had to before Jesus came and died. That's Dispensationalism for ya.
At the very least you should try and understand the actual teachings of Dispensationalists instead of making such uninformed remarks. Actually a stronger word would be more appropriate.
 
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Dave L

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Your statement is loose Dave. You don't like the law? What is you don't like? You must have an awful problem with the pronouncements in Psalms
Does fulfilling the law qualify as abolishing it? We are talking about the Ten Commandments aren't we?
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant aimed wicked unbelievers. The New Covenant, aimed at believers only, replaced them. We use the Ten Commandments for instruction and commentary in the New Covenant, but we are not under them. We live according to the Two Great Commandments written in the heart, having love for God and people as did Abel, Job, Abraham and all born again believers in the OT.
 
D

Dave L

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Not sure which you are really intending to address, whether it be freewill or God's means of salvation. But the connection is certainly one to be considered.

In the timeless reality of God, both, and quite literally all things, happened "before the foundation of the world." Thus, freewill is not something we do after the fact, or during what is perceived as "these times", but is something we did, that is just now being revealed "each in his own order." Therefore, it is instead correct to say that we "had" free will, just as it is correct to say that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.

God has "created" a means by which He reveals things in what we ironically call "real time" that is not actually real, but only perceived as such. Or if you can receive it...that this is that time. Which is ill-advised, because that means siding with the idea that what was and is "created" is the greater reality...and it is not. "I am" is the greater reality, and there is no other reality, except that which was created for revelation.

So, no, God does not save people that way. But has establish an eternal matter of choice, wherein we now experience those things that are, rather than deciding along the illusion of a timeline that does not actually exist with God.
But something must exist before it can choose. And it always chooses for a reason that precedes the choice. So God is the reason behind people choosing what they do.
 
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Dave L

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So why were there saints waiting in paradise that could not leave until Christ resurrected?
Why were they in paradise (heaven) if not saved?
“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.” (2 Corinthians 12:2–4) (NASB95)
 
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