Another end time question?

(setfree;47590)
If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
The rapture will happen at the last trump, near the end of the tribulation period. It is false to think it will happen before the tribulation period.See matthew 24, "immediately after the tribulation of those days", Jesus sends the angels to gather the elect, that is the rapture; it is at the end of the tribulation period. Look up "last trump" in a concordance. 7 trumpets blow in Revelation.

You helped me to understand and now I have read and re-read the Scriptures. It is very clear to me now and I will be able to share with others.Donnie

(samy;47596)
The Bible is quite clear that there is no rapture before the tribualtion. Notice Matt 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light,...and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky...and they will gather together His elect...from one end of the sky to the other." Then in 2 Thess 1:6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire...(v.10)...when he comes to be glorified in His saints on that day." Look at the thread on the Problems of Pretribulationism, or see it at my site. www.expressright.com
I disagree. The bible is not so clear, else you and the pretribbers would agree.The Holy Spirit will indeed be on the earth during the 70th week. It is the Holy Spirit anointing on the church, that is holding back the revealing of the antichrist. When the church is "taken out" the antichrist will be free to be revealed. The church will not see the antichrist.Coop

(stone;49080)
The rapture will happen at the last trump, near the end of the tribulation period. It is false to think it will happen before the tribulation period.See matthew 24, "immediately after the tribulation of those days", Jesus sends the angels to gather the elect, that is the rapture; it is at the end of the tribulation period. Look up "last trump" in a concordance. 7 trumpets blow in Revelation.
Indeed, the rapture will happen at the last trump. There is a difference between "last trump" and "7th trump." The last trump Is God's trump - not an angel.If the rapture was when Jesus comes on the white horse, the church would miss the wedding. Notice how John put it:Rev. 197 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.Now compare with the very words of Jesus:Luke 12:36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.Jesus will return to the earth, after the marrige of the Lamb, and the marriage supper: plain and simple.The elect that the angels are sent out to gather, could be the Jews. It is not the church.Coop

pre tribers cant agree because theere is no scripture written that says anything about it therefore they have made a doctrine they have to struggle to make scripture fit rather than let scripture give the doctrine. now as far as your seventh trump it is the last trump its not an angel at all a trump(et) is the call to begin the action it isnt the action it calls one to begin the battel or begin a prayer what ever the case may be the 7th and last trumpet sound the Action described begins 7th and last same thing

(kriss;50206)
pre tribers cant agree because theere is no scripture written that says anything about it therefore they have made a doctrine they have to struggle to make scripture fit rather than let scripture give the doctrine. now as far as your seventh trump it is the last trump its not an angel at all a trump(et) is the call to begin the action it isnt the action it calls one to begin the battel or begin a prayer what ever the case may be the 7th and last trumpet sound the Action described begins 7th and last same thing
Pretribbers all agree that we have no appointment with God's wrath:1 Thessalonians 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,Romans 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.1 Thessalonians 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.If I have no appointment with a doctor, I am surely NOT going to go to his office, and try to see him. That would be foolish. It is just as foolish to think we are going to be here, when we have no appointment with God's wrath. His wrath is not for us, but for the wicked:Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Romans 2:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Ephesians 5:6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.For the readers: Please take note that Jesus comes back in chapter 19, long after the 7th trumpet has sounded. The 7th trumpet may well be the last of this series, since there is no 8th, but it is not Paul's "last trump."Coop

(lecoop;50204)
Indeed, the rapture will happen at the last trump. There is a difference between "last trump" and "7th trump." The last trump Is God's trump - not an angel.If the rapture was when Jesus comes on the white horse, the church would miss the wedding. Notice how John put it:Rev. 197 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.Now compare with the very words of Jesus:Luke 12:36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.Jesus will return to the earth, after the marrige of the Lamb, and the marriage supper: plain and simple.The elect that the angels are sent out to gather, could be the Jews. It is not the church.Coop
With the exception of the last line I agree. Although not for the same reasons.Both the pre-tribbers and the post-tribbers out there have it wrong wrong wrong.The tribulation period is the first 3 1/2 years of Daniels 70th week. Christ comes for the church a few weeks after the abomination of desolation. The church goes to heaven for the wedding supper of the lamb. The 144,000 Jews stay on earth where the Archangel Michael (I think) protects them from the man of sin. This is also when the two witnesses begin their preaching in Jerusalem. Then after 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath being pored out by his angels on the rest of the world that refuse to repent. He comes back with the saints on a white horse to destroy the beast, the false prophet and throw the devil in hell along with all those who have taken the microchip and worshiped the beast. The Lord then rules the nations with a rod of iron for 1000 years with the saints. The 144,000 Jews will be with the Lord as well.But the answer to the original question is "he" in II Thes 2:7 is the restraining power of law and order as embodied in the Roman Senate and subsequent government structures. Paul chose not to name this power because of the persecution that was coming from Rome, and the possibility of the letter being intercepted. It is a veiled description of the Power of law and order. When the governments of the world are unable to enforce law and order this will give rise to a one world dictator and ecclesiastic. A god King.The word "he" could just a easily been translated it or that. Thus it could have been something like this government structure that he had previously mentioned to them, just as he said he did in verse 5.

Well, isn't the antichrist already here?? I'm so confused by all this. I'm a new christian and don't really know much except what I've been told in church.

You haven't even started being confused. This forum is educational but members are on opposite sides of many fences. I (new Christian myself) wish I would have just stuck with my Bible and perhaps a good commentary. I came into this forum hoping to get answers and all I have gotten is more questions. Donnie

(Charlies Angel;50715)
Well, isn't the antichrist already here?? I'm so confused by all this. I'm a new christian and don't really know much except what I've been told in church.
No antichrist is not here the time he is here is called the tribulation period its wrtten in Rev. it is a period of time just before Christ returns. Stick around you will hear about it

(DONNIE;50721)
You haven't even started being confused. This forum is educational but members are on opposite sides of many fences. I (new Christian myself) wish I would have just stuck with my Bible and perhaps a good commentary. I came into this forum hoping to get answers and all I have gotten is more questions. Donnie
Sorry Donnie but look at it this way your learning discernment

That I am Kriss. It has really helped me learn to "dig" for truth's.Donnie

(lecoop;50414)
Pretribbers all agree that we have no appointment with God's wrath:1 Thessalonians 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,Romans 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.1 Thessalonians 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.If I have no appointment with a doctor, I am surely NOT going to go to his office, and try to see him. That would be foolish. It is just as foolish to think we are going to be here, when we have no appointment with God's wrath. His wrath is not for us, but for the wicked:Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Romans 2:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Ephesians 5:6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.For the readers: Please take note that Jesus comes back in chapter 19, long after the 7th trumpet has sounded. The 7th trumpet may well be the last of this series, since there is no 8th, but it is not Paul's "last trump."Coop
This is correct Gods wrath is poured out at the 7th and last trump at Amaggedon on Satan and his army not on believers Christ coming at the last trump this is Gods Wrath, the tribulation is about antichrist and he comes in peacefully and properously everyone not sealed with the truth of God will think he is wonderful they will believe he is Christ, he isnt here to kill you he wants to win your soulOnly the last half of the tribulation does he(antichris/Satan start making trouble and most of that is directed at the two wittness's and believers We are told he will put the Elect on trial All others believers will be protected by the blood of Jesus Christ just like he did protect the hebrews at passover in Egypt and Daniel in the furnace. Not by any flying away. Do you all see how simple Gods Words are its only this Rapture doctrine that cause's any confusion God is not the author of confusion Satan and mens lies are confusioning.Learn Gods Word without any thought of Rapture as the aspostels taught and God wrote then go back and visit Rapture and see if it fits if you try to learn Gods Words and mans Word at the same time we get nothing but arguments and confusion.

Luke 17:26-30 (New International Version) 26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.That dosen't sound like a time of tribulation but a time of normalcy.

(kriss;50730)
No antichrist is not here the time he is here is called the tribulation period its wrtten in Rev. it is a period of time just before Christ returns. Stick around you will hear about it
I'm sorry to sound ignorant but I am so drawn to the subjests of the end of times and the antichrist. Kriss i want to thank you for your post...I think their great and informing. Question about the antichrist...will he be born on earth much like the movies or will he just appear on the earth?

(Charlies Angel;50737)
I'm sorry to sound ignorant but I am so drawn to the subjests of the end of times and the antichrist. Kriss i want to thank you for your post...I think their great and informing. Question about the antichrist...will he be born on earth much like the movies or will he just appear on the earth?
Please never feel that way we all started in the same place We are happy to answer your question. I believe the Bible to teach that Antichrist is Satan himself this was what the original church fathers also taught before coruption set into the church.Satan was an Angel who rebelled against God because he became full of pride and thought he should be god. He was created the most knowagable and powerful arch angel ever created. He used to walk to fro upon the earth (thats back and forth from heaven to earth) but after Christ was crusified he conquered Satan for all intensive purposes and sense that time he has been held in chains by Michael in heaven. But he will be allowed by God to escape from Michael and be cast unto earth Where he will pretend to be christ thus we call him Anti(christ) he will do miracles and show wonderous signs he will trying to fool the World into believing this lie. We are told he comes first so do not believe if anyone says he is Christ for when the true christ arrives at the 7th trump he will kill Satan and his army of fallen Angels and we will all be changed into our spirit bodies and Christ will rule on earth. This just a general run down without a lot of details to get your mind set 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." .

(kriss;50739)
Please never feel that way we all started in the same place We are happy to answer your question. I believe the Bible to teach that Antichrist is Satan himself this was what the original church fathers also taught before coruption set into the church.Satan was an Angel who rebelled against God because he became full of pride and thought he should be god. He was created the most knowagable and powerful arch angel ever created. He used to walk to fro upon the earth (thats back and forth from heaven to earth) but after Christ was crusified he conquered Satan for all intensive purposes and sense that time he has been held in chains by Michael in heaven. But he will be allowed by God to escape from Michael and be cast unto earth Where he will pretend to be christ thus we call him Anti(christ) he will do miracles and show wonderous signs he will trying to fool the World into believing this lie. We are told he comes first so do not believe if anyone says he is Christ for when the true christ arrives at the 7th trump he will kill Satan and his army of fallen Angels and we will all be changed into our spirit bodies and Christ will rule on earth. This just a general run down without a lot of details to get your mind set 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." .
Indeed Kriss. In English the word ANTI means against. But the word ANTI in Greek means instead ofBoth definations are completely true. This is for those that don't know.

Kriss, How is it that we are warned that "your adversary, the devil prowels about as a roaring lion seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8, and "we are not ignorant of his schemes" (2 Cor 2:11), and James 4:7 "resist the devil and he will flee from you," and "do not give the devil an opportunity" (Eph 4:27)? And if he is chainded in heaven how did he "fill [Ananias'] heart to lie to the Holy Spirit" (Acts 5:3)? How can Satan be described as, "the Prince of the power of the air that is now working in the sons of disobedience"? samy
good questions

Satans evil spirits roam the earth as do the tares, We are told we battle against principalities.Satan himself does not walk the earth at this time we are told he is held in heaven by God and Michael.He is our accusser Day and night. Walk as used in 1 peter 5 above means to follow a path as in we walk in the way of Christ it does not mean he literally walks upon earth his ways are always trying to snare one so be sober and vigilent Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Kriss wrote "Walk as used in 1 peter 5 above means to follow a path as in we walk in the way of Christ..." But the walk of Christ still involved actual movement or behavior that modeled something. The word walk always seems to be alluding to behavior or a type off movement. Christ's behavior was good movement that we should copy, Satan's movement is something evil that we should fear. samy