For those who don't believe in prophets today....explain this

Dave L said:

But understanding what is said = edification. Paul said those who speak in tongues edify only themselves. = they understand what they are saying.

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justbyfaith said:

Praying in the spirit means that personal understanding (of the Lord's word) will be enhanced; a prayer language by nature is not the native language of the person speaking (did you ignore Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11?). Iow, no, when a person prays in tongues he does not understand what He is praying; he is trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying through Him and that the Lord in His love is going to work that out for good.

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Praying in the spirit does not mean praying in tongues. It means praying is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:26-30 New International Version (NIV)
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, whoa]">[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Dave L said:

One, Christ is in all believers ever since Pentecost. So Paul cannot be endorsing your view.

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Please on elaborate why you think this is; because I don't see your point.

Dave L said:

But the proof of your position might be if you recorded a tongues message and played it for several groups claiming to have the gift of interpretation. And see if they all come up with the same or an approximate interpretation. I don't think any such tests ever proved true so far.

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I have heard testimonies where tongues were spoken in a large church setting, and no one had an interpretation; but then an unbeliever who was a bartender at the hotel where the church meeting was, testified later that it had been in his native language and that he understood every word; and other things like this.

Dave L said:

And Paul more than once says certain gifts would end. And this would happen before the return of Christ. Because faith and hope would remain. We do not need these in heaven. They remain after tongues and prophecy cease.

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Faith, hope, and love abide even before tongues and prophecy cease. God is training us to live by faith, hope, and love while we are on the earth; and the scripture in question does not say that faith and hope do not exist in heaven; when we have been trained by a schoolmaster we continue to live by what he taught us even after he is gone.

Dave L said:

How so?

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The fact that you do not know indicates to me that you haven't looked up any of my scripture references.

Dave L said:

Tongues ceased,

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Tongues have not ceased; I speak in them myself. You are attempting in your doctrine to forbid to speak in tongues; the scripture says not to do that.

CoreIssue said:

Praying in the spirit does not mean praying in tongues. It means praying is guided by the Holy Spirit.

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Go ahead and interpret it that way; it's no skin off my back. For me, I know that when I pray in tongues I am praying in the Holy Ghost. If you are trying to convince me to not operate in my gift you are barking up the wrong tree. Scripture tells me to stir up the gift of God that is within me.

justbyfaith said:

The fact that you do not know indicates to me that you haven't looked up any of my scripture references.



Tongues have not ceased; I speak in them myself. You are attempting in your doctrine to forbid to speak in tongues; the scripture says not to do that.



Go ahead and interpret it that way; it's no skin off my back. For me, I know that when I pray in tongues I am praying in the Holy Ghost. If you are trying to convince me to not operate in my gift you are barking up the wrong tree. Scripture tells me to stir up the gift of God that is within me.

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Don't assume everyone sees it your way. Try explaining it.

justbyfaith said:

Please on elaborate why you think this is; because I don't see your point.



I have heard testimonies where tongues were spoken in a large church setting, and no one had an interpretation; but then an unbeliever who was a bartender at the hotel where the church meeting was, testified later that it had been in his native language and that he understood every word; and other things like this.



Faith, hope, and love abide even before tongues and prophecy cease. God is training us to live by faith, hope, and love while we are on the earth; and the scripture in question does not say that faith and hope do not exist in heaven; when we have been trained by a schoolmaster we continue to live by what he taught us even after he is gone.

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This is going nowhere. Take a recorded tongues sample to different groups who think they have the gift of interpretation. And prove the world wrong by showing a uniform interpretation of the same message from each group. Last I heard it failed the test.

Dave L said:

This is an interesting interpretation, but it has weaknesses. One, Christ is in all believers ever since Pentecost. So Paul cannot be endorsing your view. And Paul more than once says certain gifts would end. And this would happen before the return of Christ. Because we will not need faith and hope in heaven. Yet they remain after tongues and prophecy cease.

But the proof of your position might be if you recorded a tongues message and played it for several groups claiming to have the gift of interpretation. And see if they all come up with the same or an approximate interpretation. I don't think any such tests ever proved true so far.

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The weakness, comes from you not understanding the proper context.

Paul's ministry straddled the greatest transitional period in human history. He spoke literally "all things to all people". Thus, you cannot lump things together as you have. On the contrary, the Lord has unraveled them and I am speaking plainly of them in their proper context.

What Paul said regarding "those who are alive and remain" does not apply to those who have yet come into the faith. But you have applied both words to both, as if the dead and the living in Christ are at the same place, when they are not. This all comes from not correctly understanding what Paul said about (among other things) "the end"...which he went on and on about, referring to the "old man" and the "new man", one being dead and the other alive in Christ, and "each" coming to this rapturous "end" - "each in his own order." All of which has confused your understanding of things during these times when both groups are advancing toward the new heavens and new earth...the one group, the living, ministering to the other.

Did you look up Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11 or didn't you? I believe that that passage explains my pov adequately without any exposition on my part, in refutation of your idea that when we pray in tongues, the one speaking in tongues can understand what he is saying.

When you pray in tongues, do you understand what you are saying? If you can honestly say yes, then I just might believe you.

re #405.

Dave L said:

This is going nowhere. Take a recorded tongues sample to different groups who think they have the gift of interpretation. And prove the world wrong by showing a uniform interpretation of the same message from each group. Last I heard it failed the test.

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Some people think that they have the gift of interpretation when they do not.

I think that the real test is if someone hears them speaking in their own language when the speaker has no knowledge of that language. And there is testimony of that in the church movement that I hail from.

ScottA said:

The weakness, comes from you not understanding the proper context.

Paul's ministry straddled the greatest transitional period in human history. He spoke literally "all things to all people". Thus, you cannot lump things together as you have. On the contrary, I have unraveled them and am speaking plainly of them in their proper context. What he said regarding "those who are alive and remain" does not apply to those who have yet come into the faith. But you have applied both words to both, as if the dead and the living in Christ are at the same place, when they are not. This all comes from not correctly understanding what Paul said about (among other things) "the end"...which he went on and on about, referring to the "old man" and the "new man", one being dead and the other alive in Christ, and "each" coming to this rapturous "end" - "each in his own order." All of which has confused your understanding of things during these times when both groups are advancing toward the new heavens and new earth.

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You are covering in detail everything but the point of the conversation. Interpretation of scripture does not replace direct quotes.

Dave L said:

You are covering in detail everything but the point of the conversation. Interpretation of scripture does not replace direct quotes.

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I agree. And I suppose that this also means that I won the debate concerning everything else.

justbyfaith said:

Some people think that they have the gift of interpretation when they do not.

I think that the real test is if someone hears them speaking in their own language when the speaker has no knowledge of that language. And there is testimony of that in the church movement that I hail from.

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But, Paul says,
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2) (KJV 1900)

justbyfaith said:

I agree. And I suppose that this also means that I won the debate concerning everything else.

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Truth always wins.

Word of wisdom, word of knowledge, exhortation, teaching, and every other speaking gift should never contradict the reality of what we see in our King James Bible.

Dave L said:

But, Paul says,
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2) (KJV 1900)

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Some have determined from this that there are two different types of speaking in tongues: what is spoken of in the above verse and what is spoken of in Acts of the Apostles 2:1-13.

justbyfaith said:

Some have determined from this that there are two different types of speaking in tongues: what is spoken of in the above verse and what is spoken of in Acts of the Apostles 2:1-13.

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It doesn't pan out though. It's all the same gift with different applications.

Or, perhaps, the reason why no man understandeth him is because no man is present in the room who understand the language that he is speaking in through the Spirit. Which is not to say that someone who might understand the language might not be present somewhere else. Since the context is the use of speaking of tongues in a church setting.

Dave L said:

It doesn't pan out though. It's all the same gift with different applications.

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I believe that the interpretation is indeed valid (therefore it does pan out to a certain extent).

justbyfaith said:

Or, perhaps, the reason why no man understandeth him is because no man is present in the room who understand the language that he is speaking in through the Spirit. Which is not to say that someone who might understand the language might not be present somewhere else.

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There is no solid proof, which should be abundant, if tongues were for today. Since it is something we can test and compare to scripture.

justbyfaith said:

I believe that the interpretation is indeed valid (therefore it does pan out to a certain extent).

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but have we tested to see if the one message and several interpretations are the same in several groups?