Shadows and Realities

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bbyrd009

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Of course it was God who ordained when Messiah would be born and when he would suffer and die and when he would rise from the dead. That we believers choose to celebrate the most important dates in the history of the world, not to mention the events that brought about our own salvation, is certainly not a sin. And I find it strange that anyone would think it is.
the premise goes that you are celebrating the irrelevant, literal part, and denying the spiritual, important part; as the rest of your theology even demonstrates imo, your testifying of yourself there indicates also, and mostly the employment of the Hegelian Dialectic in Scripture, the sure telltale
 

Pilgrimer

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the premise goes that you are celebrating the irrelevant, literal part, and denying the spiritual, important part; as the rest of your theology even demonstrates imo, your testifying of yourself there indicates also, and mostly the employment of the Hegelian Dialectic in Scripture, the sure telltale

Not at all. It was the very literal flesh and blood birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus that has provided us our spiritual blessings, and what will one day be the material manifestation of them.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

gadar perets

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Actually, the passing away of this present old world is not foretold in the prophets, only the beginning of the new creation is foretold.
Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

And the new creation that was foretold has already begun, and we who are alive in Christ, who are “new creatures created in Christ Jesus,” we are part of the new creation, the new Jerusalem is the capitol of it, and every soul that is saved is another stone in the walls of that new city.
We will not comprise New Jerusalem until we are literally resurrected and all believers are together.

But what you are saying is that some jots and tittles of the law have been fulfilled and passed away but others have not. That is precisely what Jesus said could not happen. If everything hasn’t been fulfilled, then everything, the whole law, every jot and tittle, is still in force. And yet it is self-evident that is not the case, else God would not have allowed everything He provided for the law's observance to be destroyed.
Just because some jots and tittles have been fulfilled, it doesn't mean they have passed away. Even sacrifices can be viewed as still remaining and are currently being fulfilled by Yeshua. Will they be offered again during the Millennium? Ezekiel’s temple and other prophetic passages seem to suggest they will.

Here’s a basic idea that I would like you to consider. We have two “testaments.” The Old Testament is the former testament, or the former days, or the former rains when the Spirit of God was given “moderately” as Joel points out: “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month … and it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

The former rains was the Holy Spirit as it was given “moderately” in the former Old Testament days and only to the select few. But the latter rain in these latter New Testament days is an outpouring upon all flesh, without moderation. Paul says: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1)

The Old Testament with the Mosaic Covenant is the “former” days and the former things. The New Testament with the New Covenant is the “latter” days and the latter things. The former rain was the Holy Spirit given in moderation in the former days to the select few. The latter rain is the Holy Spirit poured out “in these last days” upon all flesh.

The harvest was already ripe when Jesus walked the earth: “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say ye not, there are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? Behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already unto harvest. And he that reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, one soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon you bestowed no labor: other men labored, and you are entered into their labours.”

And there are other verses where Jesus speaks of the Jewish nation already being ready for harvest. He also speaks of the Jewish nation being a vineyard and how it was time to gather in the fruit but when the Lord sent men to collect it they were stoned and driven away and then the Lord of the Vineyard sent his own son whom they killed.
...
And so ended the former things, after they were fulfilled by the establishment of the latter things. Old Testament/New Testament. Old Covenant/New Covenant. Former Days/Latter Days. Former Rain/Latter Rain.
This is a very interesting observation, but there are several flaws which rule it out as being the fulfillment of the shadow of Shavuot.

1) Shavuot concerns the firstfruits of the WHEAT harvest. Old Testament Jews are not wheat, but barley as was Yeshua (Leviticus 23:9-14). New Testament believers are spoken of as wheat (Matthew 13:24-30).
2) If the former and latter rains are shadows, then you have a shadow being fulfilled at the same time people were living under it.
3) While the field were ready to harvest in Yeshua’s day, they will not be harvested until the resurrection in our future (Matthew 13:38-40).​

The premillennial view just basically ignores the Jewish nation, both in terms of the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of multitudes of Jews, the first members of Christ’s body and actually the very foundation of the church. The premil view also completely ignores the catastrophic end of the Old Covenant and the Jewish state in the generation of the coming of Jesus as if it doesn’t mean anything or somehow doesn’t count. They are gravely mistaken.
I agree that that is the position of some.

Not so. The Revelation states that “when the thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed” and will attack the camp of the saints and the beloved city and God will rain down fire from heaven and devour them and then heaven and earth will flee away from the face of Jesus as he appears seated on his throne and all the dead are raised to stand before him in judgment. That is when this present old heavens and earth will pass away and there will be a new heavens and a new earth, after the 1000 years are expired, not during the 1000 years.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This implies to me that earth and heaven fled away from Yeshua in the past, not at the time the throne is seen. The earth and the heaven fled away at Yeshua’s second coming. That is when the old heaven and earth (old rulership over the earth) fled and the new heaven and new earth began (a new rulership over the earth).

The unleavened bread does not represent our bodies, it represented the body of Jesus. That’s why during that last Passover he took that unleavened bread and broke it and gave it to his disciples telling them to eat it, that it was his body which was broken for them. That was fulfilled, and that “bread,” that sinless body that was sacrificed for us, that’s the bread that those of us who are saved must eat if we are to have life.

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body … Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.”

Those of us who belong to Christ, who eat of this sacrifice, who eat this unleavened bread which is the body of Christ, we already have eternal life, our old dead spirit has already been raised up to life in God’s Kingdom, and on the very last day the Christ who dwells in us will also raise up our mortal bodies to immortality in a new heavens and new earth where sin and death itself will cease to exist.
Yes, Yeshua was unleavened bread, but we are his body. As such, we are to be unleavened as well.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​
 

gadar perets

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But Tabernacles commemorated dwelling in temporary tabernacles after being delivered from sin and before entering into the promised land. According to the view above it was about dwelling in permanent tabernacles after entering the promised land. Fulfillment cannot be something completely different from the shadow it fulfills, else people can just make up whatever they want and there is no truth to test it against.
The reality of Tabernacles is YHWH literally tabernacling among His people as the shadow of YHWH being with Israel throughout their wilderness journey depicts. While He was with Israel in the wilderness, He made them to dwell in the shadow of temporary tabernacles. Our permanent tabernacle is either our glorified body or New Jerusalem.

I don’t think I am the one being deceived. God destroyed the nation of Israel in the days of Jesus’ first coming, so you can argue that their hearts were right with God but the truth is written in the dust and rubble.
You are referring to one wicked generation that rejected YHWH's Son. I am referring to prior generations that rejoiced with a grateful heart.

I correctly believe Jesus fulfilled them, every one.

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men … that was the true Light.” John 1:4,9

As I stated earlier, if you study all these former shadows and they are not "shedding light" on the person and work of Jesus Christ, then you are not correctly understanding what they testify to.
Yeshua is definitely a great light, but he is not greater than his Father YHWH who is the ultimate light. Yeshua is a reflection/image of YHWH's light. Yeshua did indeed fulfill the light of the Law by keeping it all, but not by doing away with it.

Also, John 1:4 does not refer to Yeshua, but to the logos. The correct translation is, "In it was life ..."

Of course it was God who ordained when Messiah would be born and when he would suffer and die and when he would rise from the dead.
I agree.

That we believers choose to celebrate the most important dates in the history of the world, not to mention the events that brought about our own salvation, is certainly not a sin. And I find it strange that anyone would think it is.
You would have grounds to do so IF your dates were correct, but they are not. Yeshua was born in the Fall around Sukkot and died on Abib 16, not the first Sunday that falls on or after the vernal equinox. Someone as intelligent as you must have surely looked into the pagan foundations of Christmas and why December 25 was chosen.
 

bbyrd009

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Not at all. It was the very literal flesh and blood birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus that has provided us our spiritual blessings, and what will one day be the material manifestation of them.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
you will never partake in Christ that way imo,
and the kingdom does not come by observation
I correctly believe Jesus fulfilled them, every one.
So now you don't have to pick up your cross at all, huh?
Nehushtan will save you, ok, i agree; go find him and be saved imo!
I correctly believe that you testify of yourself real good here Pilgrimer :D
That we believers choose to celebrate the most important dates in the history of the world, not to mention the events that brought about our own salvation, is certainly not a sin. And I find it strange that anyone would think it is.
Wadr this is only bc "you believers" are so immersed in the Hegelian dialectic that you don't even realize what you are stating, or how that is heard by...those who are not deemed "you."
 
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Pilgrimer

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Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Let’s look at that in context: “Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, my judgment. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it … and thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls …”

Do you really think this was speaking of the physical destruction of the whole cosmos? Or was this the same apocalyptic language about the curse of the Law executed against the people of the Law in the last days of the Old Covenant?

Why is Idumea used to signify the kingdom that would be thus judged and destroyed? Because in New Testament times Israel was ruled over by the Idumean King Herod and his sons. What did Herod and Idumea have to do with all this? The name Idumea was the name of the kingdom of the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, the one over whom Isaac prophesied saying: “And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother (Jacob who became Israel); and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion (become king over the kingdom), that thou shalt break his (Israel’s) yoke from off thy neck.”

Remember Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, which was a shadow of how the nation of Israel sold their birthright to God’s heavenly kingdom for an earthly perishable land that satisfied the flesh. Only a remnant of Jews were saved, but that remnant of faithful Jews, from both Old and New Testament times, those are who God counts as the Israel of God. The rest were cast out and destroyed.

And that’s what Isaiah was prophesying, not the end of the world, obviously because it talks about the land being desolate and the habitation of owls and dragons. This was apocalyptic language, again, that spoke of the judgment and destruction of the nation of Israel.

We will not comprise New Jerusalem until we are literally resurrected and all believers are together.

“But ye are come (present tense) unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall we not escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.” (Hebrews 12:22-25)

If you have been saved, your name is already written in heaven, you have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. It is a spiritual city, in a spiritual kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, and if you have been raised from spiritual death to spiritual life then you are already a living stone that is part of that city God is creating, the New Jerusalem of the new creation, spiritual first, and afterward that which is physical.

Just because some jots and tittles have been fulfilled, it doesn't mean they have passed away. Even sacrifices can be viewed as still remaining and are currently being fulfilled by Yeshua. Will they be offered again during the Millennium? Ezekiel’s temple and other prophetic passages seem to suggest they will.

Ouch! So how many times does Jesus have to die before he is finished “fulfilling” the sacrifices? And why on earth would God go back to temple shadows and sacrifice shadows when the whole point of them was to by a type and figure to foretell and teach about the sacrificial death of Jesus?

Ezekiel saw what Jesus’ once-for-all-forever sacrifice fulfilled, not a return to the blood of bulls and goats as though the blood of Jesus isn’t enough to completely atone for sin and forever reconcile men with God.

Saying that God has ordained a future return to animal sacrifices is to say the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough.

This is a very interesting observation, but there are several flaws which rule it out as being the fulfillment of the shadow of Shavuot.

Shavuot concerns the firstfruits of the WHEAT harvest. Old Testament Jews are not wheat, but barley as was Yeshua (Leviticus 23:9-14). New Testament believers are spoken of as wheat (Matthew 13:24-30).

Actually New Testament believers (Jew and Gentile) are not spoken of anywhere as any particular type of grain, including in the passage you cited. The first souls saved and gathered into God’s household in the harvest of the Gospel were the Jews, ergo they are identified as the “firstfruits” in the Revelation, whether it is the firstfruits of the barley or of the wheat. This would include all those of both the Old and New Testaments. That’s why the Scripture says the Gospel was to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.

And the 40 years from the institution of the New Covenant to the final judgment and end of the Old Covenant was the period of time God allowed for the harvest of the nation of Israel, which is why Jesus instructed the disciples to preach the Gospel beginning in Jerusalem, and then in Judea, and then Samaria and then to the nations. And that is how the Gospel did in fact spread and for the first 10 years all the converts to Christ were Jews.

So I don’t think the idea that Gentiles were “firstfruits” is a correct interpretation of these things, the harvest of the Gospel among the Gentiles was after the nation of Israel had been reaped.

But there was one final harvest of Israel that didn’t take place until the end of that generation, and that was the vintage at the end of the year.

While the field were ready to harvest in Yeshua’s day, they will not be harvested until the resurrection in our future (Matthew 13:38-40).

Again, not everything in the Bible is talking about physical things. It does talk a lot about spiritual things. And certainly it speaks of the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of souls as sowing seeds and reaping a harvest. Do you truly not believe that?

This implies to me that earth and heaven fled away from Yeshua in the past, not at the time the throne is seen. The earth and the heaven fled away at Yeshua’s second coming. That is when the old heaven and earth (old rulership over the earth) fled and the new heaven and new earth began (a new rulership over the earth).

You’re kidding right? After all your insistence that everything be understood literally as physical things now when we talk about the actual end of the world after the millennium you are saying this is spiritual rather than physical?

No, the old heavens and earth that Jesus and Moses walked is still here. The stars that Abraham gazed on when God promised his descendants would be as numerous are still burning brightly in the heavens … well, a few have died and others have been born but.

The Revelation says that it will be after the 1000 years expire that there will be a great white throne where Jesus will sit and from whose face the earth and the heavens will flee away (Revelation 20:11) so no, this fleeing away of the cosmos did not happen in the past, and it most definitely occurs at the time of the great white throne judgment.

And yes, this is talking about the end of the physical world. And it’s also talking about the physical resurrection.


Yes, Yeshua was unleavened bread, but we are his body. As such, we are to be unleavened as well.

But we are not what the unleavened bread of the Passover Feast foreshadowed. That foreshadowed the body of Christ, part of that sacrificial Passover meal. Our body is not part of the Festival sacrifice nor does anyone eat it.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Pilgrimer

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The reality of Tabernacles is YHWH literally tabernacling among His people as the shadow of YHWH being with Israel throughout their wilderness journey depicts. While He was with Israel in the wilderness, He made them to dwell in the shadow of temporary tabernacles. Our permanent tabernacle is either our glorified body or New Jerusalem.

Well … yeah. That’s what I’ve been saying. These bodies we are living in now are our temporary tabernacles while we travel through the wilderness of this world heading to the promised land with God dwelling with us as a cloud, a pillar of fire, manna, and water from the rock. Once the resurrection/rapture occurs, we will be in our glorified permanent bodies and the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and God will dwell with us face to face.

You are referring to one wicked generation that rejected YHWH's Son. I am referring to prior generations that rejoiced with a grateful heart.

The nation of Israel was not judged and destroyed because they rejected Jesus. Certainly those who did believe the Gospel and accept Jesus were saved from the wrath that God poured out on that generation, but those who did not have that blood over the doorposts of their hearts, when Abbadon passed through the land they were all slain because they were held accountable for all the righteous blood that was shed, including the blood of the innocent babes that in times past they had covenanted would belong to God and yet they burned alive in fire as an offering to Baal.

Of course God knew they would do such things, and from the very beginning he warned them, beginning with Moses, that they would utterly corrupt themselves and that in the latter days evil would befall them because they would do evil in God’s sight to provoke him to anger. Read the prophecy of Moses, called the Song of Moses, Deuteronomy 31:28-32:47. It’s all laid out. And this is the wellspring of all those apocalyptic prophecies later picked up and elaborated upon by the prophets, and then finally Jesus himself in ringing condemnation told them the time had come for this terrible judgment to come to pass on Jerusalem and Judaea.

Yeshua is definitely a great light, but he is not greater than his Father YHWH who is the ultimate light. Yeshua is a reflection/image of YHWH's light. Yeshua did indeed fulfill the light of the Law by keeping it all, but not by doing away with it.

It’s not a competition. It is God Himself who has set Jesus at His own right hand and made everything subject to Jesus, given Jesus all power and all authority in heaven and on earth, the Father Himself being the only one who is not subject to the Son. That is God's doing. He has exalted the Son to His own throne.

Also, John 1:4 does not refer to Yeshua, but to the logos. The correct translation is, "In it was life ..."

I think that’s a bad translation and you really have to tear that one phrase out of the context of those first 14 verses, which is self-evident is talking about Jesus. The same “autos” in whom was light (v4) is the same “autos” that made everything (v3) and the same “autos” that made the world (v10) and the same “autos” who came to his own but was rejected by them (v11) and the same “autos” who gave men who believed power to become the Sons of God (v12) and the same “autos” that was made flesh and dwelt among us (v14). There’s no reason to translate “autos” as “him” in every verse except the one you said should be translated “it.”

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Pilgrimer

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You would have grounds to do so IF your dates were correct, but they are not. Yeshua was born in the Fall around Sukkot and died on Abib 16, not the first Sunday that falls on or after the vernal equinox. Someone as intelligent as you must have surely looked into the pagan foundations of Christmas and why December 25 was chosen.

I have indeed looked into the foundations of our customs. Extremely meticulously in fact. And not relying on others to do the heavy lifting for me but researching the Scriptures, historical records including all the Talmudic materials as well as the works of Josephus and Philo, and all the Apostolic fathers and the first church historian Eusebius, as well as the Roman records up until the time of the late Roman period including many letters and edicts of Roman emperors that have been carefully preserved. I have sought out and studied ancient artifacts, subscribe to and have researched archaeological records, as well as availing myself of more contemporary sources such as meteorological and topographical data on the Holy Land. And it has been a very fascinating study that I have learned much from and still enjoy very much.

And it hasn’t been a quick study either. My studies have been my life’s work of almost 40 years and began back before the ease of research that is available through the internet when I was forced to accumulate an extensive library, but which I am most thankful to possess.

But none of that is really what matters. What matters is that I began my study not to prove any particular viewpoint, but to discover, as much as possible, the truth of the matter. And what I have found is that there is a tremendous amount of data that supports the December dating of Jesus’ birth, all of the actual data in fact. And that the objections to this date are not in fact supported by any actual evidence but are the result of, at times, accidental and I’m sure unintended mistakes, but in some cases preconceived biases and at times even downright dishonesty.

For example, one simple mistake you make above: Our Easter celebration on the first Sunday that falls after the Paschal moon is not a celebration of his death, but of his resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. There is a lot of history behind the importance of the 8th day as being the day on which the new creation would begin so it held an important place in the minds of those earliest believers. And we honor the Friday before that as the day (not the date) on which he was crucified.

But this is rather off topic, which is fine with me but if an administrator objects we can move it to another thread so I replied under a separate post.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Pilgrimer

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you will never partake in Christ that way imo, and the kingdom does not come by observation


We are discussing Old Testament types and figures that foreshadowed the person and work of Jesus and how and whether or not they might have been fulfilled. The physical birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus were not types or figures that foreshadowed something future, they were themselves fulfillment of Old Testament types and figures.

Our spiritual partaking of the body and blood of Jesus is also the fulfillment of previous types, the priests who served in the Temple who sat at the Lord’s Table and ate of the portions of the sacrifices and offerings that God provided to sustain them during their ministry, for example, who partook of a daily lot and portion that was by law set aside for the maintenance of those who served in God’s Temple.

The people also ate of portions of the sacrifices and offerings, indeed, the Passover lambs were sacrificed and offered in the temple and then they were brought home and roasted and eaten. The feasts were feasts. Meaning people ate food. And the central part of those feasts were the portions the Lord provided of the sacrifices and offerings. Those feasts were the literal, physical types. The New Covenant Lord’s Supper is the spiritual fulfillment of all those old earthly types and will forever be the true meat and drink that gives us life.

So now you don't have to pick up your cross at all, huh?
Nehushtan will save you, ok, i agree; go find him and be saved imo!
I correctly believe that you testify of yourself real good here Pilgrimer

I don't come to testify of myself, but to testify of Jesus, and yes, we all must pick up our cross, and follow Jesus, not Moses. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-23, Hebrews 3:1-6)

Wadr this is only bc "you believers" are so immersed in the Hegelian dialectic that you don't even realize what you are stating, or how that is heard by...those who are not deemed "you."

It is up to you whether or not to include yourself in “we believers,” and whether to view these things as some imagined dialectic or simple didactic. Faith is and always will be a choice.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

bbyrd009

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I don't come to testify of myself, but to testify of Jesus, and yes, we all must pick up our cross, and follow Jesus, not Moses. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-23, Hebrews 3:1-6)
you are not addressing the post now wadr, yes you were quite obviously testifying of yourself just then, "I correctly believe..." and saying that you were not testifying of yourself now does not negate that, i hope you can see?
It is up to you whether or not to include yourself in “we believers,”
yes, it is up to me whether i choose to testify about myself or not, i agree there
whether to view these things as some imagined dialectic
ok, ty
loud and clear enough i guess
 
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Pilgrimer

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you are not addressing the post now wadr, yes you were quite obviously testifying of yourself just then, "I correctly believe..." and saying that you were not testifying of yourself now does not negate that, i hope you can see?

I was addressing the post … “You would put out some of those lights because you falsely believe Yeshua replaced them.”

My response what that I “correctly believe Jesus fulfilled them, every one.”

And I testify again that which I know to be true, that Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the shadows and all the types and all the figures that the Law foreshadowed, typified, and pre-figured. And as glorious as the light of these shadows of the Law were, they pale in comparison to the glory of the realities we now are blessed with.

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be even more glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”

I believe Jesus and his kingdom have fulfilled the whole Law, the Law written and engraven in stone, which had a shadow of things to come, which shadows have been done away. And it is Jesus and his kingdom that remains, long after the earthly shadows and types and figures have been done away with.

“Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:26-29

But you’ve contributed nothing to the discussion, at least not since I've joined. Would you care to share your views?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

bbyrd009

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My response what that I “correctly believe Jesus fulfilled them, every one.”
yes, so not only are you prolly wrong iow--what was "finished" was the law of sin and death, see, you don't get stoned now for incorrectly saying 'correctly' see--but you are also deceived when you say "correctly," see, if the premise is incorrect, which i don't want to even comment on.

The point here is you are defending a belief on the surface here, see, but it is really an Absolute Truth iyo now, according to your own words.

Understand i am not arguing whether or not Jesus fulfilled them all or not ok,
i comprehend what "pick up your cross and follow Me" means, wadr,
and you are allowed to interpret it how you like, after all
 
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gadar perets

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Ouch! So how many times does Jesus have to die before he is finished “fulfilling” the sacrifices? And why on earth would God go back to temple shadows and sacrifice shadows when the whole point of them was to by a type and figure to foretell and teach about the sacrificial death of Jesus?
He fulfilled the sacrifices once with his death, but the effects of his sacrifice is ongoing. The sacrificial death of Yeshua is effective for believers. There will be many unbelievers living during the Millennium that do not have him as their sacrifice. Perhaps Ezekiel's future sacrifices will be offered by them. I personally do not believe believers will offer sacrifices in the future.

Saying that God has ordained a future return to animal sacrifices is to say the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough.
They would be for unbelievers, not believers.

Actually New Testament believers (Jew and Gentile) are not spoken of anywhere as any particular type of grain, including in the passage you cited. The first souls saved and gathered into God’s household in the harvest of the Gospel were the Jews, ergo they are identified as the “firstfruits” in the Revelation, whether it is the firstfruits of the barley or of the wheat. This would include all those of both the Old and New Testaments. That’s why the Scripture says the Gospel was to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.
All believers are referred to as "wheat" (sitos). "Barley" is "krithe. See Revelation 6:6.

And the 40 years from the institution of the New Covenant to the final judgment and end of the Old Covenant was the period of time God allowed for the harvest of the nation of Israel, which is why Jesus instructed the disciples to preach the Gospel beginning in Jerusalem, and then in Judea, and then Samaria and then to the nations. And that is how the Gospel did in fact spread and for the first 10 years all the converts to Christ were Jews.

So I don’t think the idea that Gentiles were “firstfruits” is a correct interpretation of these things, the harvest of the Gospel among the Gentiles was after the nation of Israel had been reaped.
I didn't say Gentiles were firstfruits. I said "New Testament believers" were firstfruits as opposed to Old Testament Jews. NT believers includes all the Jews that came to faith before the Gentiles did.

But there was one final harvest of Israel that didn’t take place until the end of that generation, and that was the vintage at the end of the year.
At the appointed time, the main harvest of souls worldwide will take place (the resurrection of believing Jews and Gentiles). That will fulfill the literal agricultural wheat harvest of Israel.

Again, not everything in the Bible is talking about physical things. It does talk a lot about spiritual things. And certainly it speaks of the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of souls as sowing seeds and reaping a harvest. Do you truly not believe that?
Yes, I do. Preaching the Gospel is sowing the seeds and the resurrection of believers is the reaping of the wheat harvest.


You’re kidding right? After all your insistence that everything be understood literally as physical things now when we talk about the actual end of the world after the millennium you are saying this is spiritual rather than physical?
I never said everything is physical.

No, the old heavens and earth that Jesus and Moses walked is still here. The stars that Abraham gazed on when God promised his descendants would be as numerous are still burning brightly in the heavens … well, a few have died and others have been born but.

The Revelation says that it will be after the 1000 years expire that there will be a great white throne where Jesus will sit and from whose face the earth and the heavens will flee away (Revelation 20:11) so no, this fleeing away of the cosmos did not happen in the past, and it most definitely occurs at the time of the great white throne judgment.

And yes, this is talking about the end of the physical world. And it’s also talking about the physical resurrection.
Yes, the great white throne judgment is after the 1,000 years, but heaven and earth will flee away at the beginning of the 1,000 years which is yet future. It refers to a change of government from the kingdoms of this world to the Kingdom of Heaven ruled by Yeshua and his resurrected followers.

But we are not what the unleavened bread of the Passover Feast foreshadowed. That foreshadowed the body of Christ, part of that sacrificial Passover meal. Our body is not part of the Festival sacrifice nor does anyone eat it.
I agree. I was not referring to the Passover meal, but to the ridding of leaven out of our houses (the temple of our bodies, our lives).
 

gadar perets

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The nation of Israel was not judged and destroyed because they rejected Jesus. Certainly those who did believe the Gospel and accept Jesus were saved from the wrath that God poured out on that generation, but those who did not have that blood over the doorposts of their hearts, when Abbadon passed through the land they were all slain because they were held accountable for all the righteous blood that was shed, including the blood of the innocent babes that in times past they had covenanted would belong to God and yet they burned alive in fire as an offering to Baal.
I didn't say they were destroyed because they rejected Yeshua. I simply identified that wicked generation as the one that rejected Yeshua.

I think that’s a bad translation and you really have to tear that one phrase out of the context of those first 14 verses, which is self-evident is talking about Jesus. The same “autos” in whom was light (v4) is the same “autos” that made everything (v3) and the same “autos” that made the world (v10) and the same “autos” who came to his own but was rejected by them (v11) and the same “autos” who gave men who believed power to become the Sons of God (v12) and the same “autos” that was made flesh and dwelt among us (v14). There’s no reason to translate “autos” as “him” in every verse except the one you said should be translated “it.”
Yeshua is not spoken of until verse 7. Prior to that the subject is the "logos" which was YHWH's spoken words and thoughts, NOT the Son. Yeshua did not have a hand in creation. YHWH created everything by speaking things into existence all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24; Psalms 33:6; etc.) English Bibles that preceded the KJV (Matthew's Bible, Tyndale's Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, The Bishop's Bible) all translated the logos as "it", not "him".
 

gadar perets

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For example, one simple mistake you make above: Our Easter celebration on the first Sunday that falls after the Paschal moon is not a celebration of his death, but of his resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week.
That was not a mistake of doctrine, but a simple senior moment. I intended to write, "and did not resurrect the first Sunday that falls on or after the vernal equinox".
 

Pilgrimer

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what was "finished" was the law of sin and death, see, you don't get stoned now …

The Law of Moses is the law of sin and death. It’s not some separate law. The whole essence of the Mosaic Law is that Israel covenanted with God to keep ALL the commandments, and statutes and judgments, and if ANY of the commandments or statutes or judgments were broken, even unknowingly or unintentionally, then the penalty for breaking even one of them was death.

But the Law also provided a temporary remedy for the guilt of breaking covenant with God and violating His commandments and statutes and judgments, and that was through what is called the “vicarious” or “substitutionary” atonement, the death of a sacrificial victim to cover for the sins of the offerer. For example, the Law itself required that every morning and every evening of every day a lamb be wholly burnt on the altar at the door of the Tabernacle/Temple as propitiation for general sin.

The “death” that was inherent in the Law of Moses was not just the punishment of stoning, the whole Law was based on reconciliation and fellowship with God being through a sacrificial system to atone for sin. Which in itself was a shadow of the New Covenant wherein reconciliation and fellowship with God is through the sacrifice of His son. All those manifold and intricately detailed jots and tittles respecting sacrifices and offerings of the Law all teach us about that one sacrifice.

And in terms of Jesus fulfilling the whole Law of Moses, the sin and death aspect of the Mosaic Law is not the whole Law. There is also the “righteousness and blessing” aspect that Jesus has also fulfilled, every jot and tittle.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

bbyrd009

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The Law of Moses is the law of sin and death. It’s not some separate law.
i essentially agree, but then note how you go on to basically DQ this pov in your paragraph two, so i also don't agree, if the Decalogue is getting like repealed in there anywhere particularly. The Ten Commandments are still the basis of law, and we are compelled to observe the law as a minimum standard, regardless of the fact that we may also break a law for a higher good
Which in itself was a shadow of the New Covenant wherein reconciliation and fellowship with God is through the sacrifice of His son.
which is also not understood, and not sufficient to cover your sins, as Scripture will tell us plainly when you stop looking for proof of the one thing, and start accepting the possibility of the other. Jesus did not die for our sins in the manner we are led to believe; no Son of Man may die for another's sins, and you would not have to pick up a cross and follow if that were true, i hope obviously?
All those manifold and intricately detailed jots and tittles respecting sacrifices and offerings of the Law all teach us about that one sacrifice.
i disagree, imo they teach us how men will subvert the Law, the Decalogue, for their own ends, and they are not in Scripture for a reason i guess.

Just as apparently, i have my own civil code based upon the Decalogue that i must obey--full Anarchist here, saying this, ok--upon pain of death, too, right?
There is also the “righteousness and blessing” aspect that Jesus has also fulfilled, every jot and tittle.
ya, see, this language is code for "i don't have to obey the law any more bc Jesus did it for me," and that is not what that v is saying, as plenty of other passages will even verify this.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

so wadr what you have done there is take a v that plainly instructs us to obey the law and subvert it to your own agenda, as "Till heaven and earth pass" even indicate
 
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Pilgrimer

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He fulfilled the sacrifices once with his death, but the effects of his sacrifice is ongoing.

You have spoken truly, the blessings of what Jesus did for us on that old rugged cross are ongoing, and will in fact forever be the one reason that we can stand before God without guilt. Not because of any works that we have done to make ourselves innocent of sin and acceptable to God, our own righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). But because we have been clothed with spotless white robes that are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:9-17), which alone makes us not only acceptable but beloved in God’s eyes.

There will be many unbelievers living during the Millennium that do not have him as their sacrifice. Perhaps Ezekiel's future sacrifices will be offered by them. I personally do not believe believers will offer sacrifices in the future.

Again, truly spoken again that believers will not offer sacrifices in the future, for where remission of sin is, there is no more offering. (Hebrews 10:17-18)

But I have to push a bit on the other part of your statement. Why would unbelievers build a temple and offer sacrifices to God?

I didn't say Gentiles were firstfruits. I said "New Testament believers" were firstfruits as opposed to Old Testament Jews. NT believers includes all the Jews that came to faith before the Gentiles did.

Ah, but you see, the “firstfruits” also included all the Jewish saints of old who died in faith not having received the promises but having seen them afar off and died in faith waiting for the coming of the Promise. They were also saved by the atoning death of Jesus, and their souls waited in what Jesus called “Abraham’s Bosom,” the place where the righteous went after death to wait for the coming salvation. Indeed, so powerful was this liberation of the souls of the faithful at the moment of Jesus’ death that graves broke open around Jerusalem and the bodies of many of the saints came out of their graves and went into the city. Of course, they died again, this was not the final resurrection which will be when all believers will become immortals, but it was powerful evidence of what the death of Jesus had wrought, liberation of the souls of those who died in faith waiting for the atoning death of Jesus to wash them and make them clean so their souls could ascend to heaven and appear in the presence of God.

So the “firstfruits” of this great soul harvest that began with the atoning power of the blood of Jesus was the Jewish faithful, Old and New Testament, who as I said, are the foundation walls (the prophets and apostles) and the gates (the twelve tribes) of the church, the first and choicest of the harvest that was set aside as belonging to God.

Then afterward came the harvest of the nations.

At the appointed time, the main harvest of souls worldwide will take place (the resurrection of believing Jews and Gentiles). That will fulfill the literal agricultural wheat harvest of Israel.

I think you have the literal shadows and spiritual realities mixed up. It was the literal harvest of the land of Israel that was the shadow of the spiritual soul harvest of the Gospel, and the Jews were the firstfruits.

The firstfruits weren’t only associated with the barley wave-sheaf of Passover or the wheat wave-loaves of Pentecost. Those two were the only public firstfruit offerings on behalf of the whole nation. But every family and individual who owned possession in the land also had to set aside as an offering the firstfruits of everything that was produced in the land. This actually included the firstborn sons as well as the firstlings of the flocks and herds.

“Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors (wine and oil): the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with they sheep.” Exodus 22:29-30

But the first “fruits” offerings (of the crops and fruits) actually began in the beginning of the agricultural year in the fall with the olive harvest in the time of the first rains. That was followed by the almond harvest in late winter and the flax harvest in early spring. Then that was followed by the barley harvest and then the wheat harvest. That in turn was followed by the fig harvest in summer, then the vintage in the end of the year.

So there were actually firstfruits offered up year-round and it was the firstfruits of everything that was produced in the land, not just the barley and wheat. So I have difficulty accepting that the barley and wheat firstfruits represented the Jews and Gentiles respectively. The Jewish believers alone are referred to in the Revelation as the “firstfruits” and historically the Jewish believers were the first to believe the Gospel and be gathered in to God’s kingdom so it seems that symbolism applies to them as the choicest and best of the harvest that was set aside for the use of God.

And certainly the Jewish believers hold a distinct place in God’s plan of salvation in that they were used by God to be those through whom He brought salvation to the nations, and that generation of New Testament Jews were the eye-witnesses of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and therefore used by God to bring the Gospel to the nations. So I think this “firstfruits” being the first, best and choicest part of the harvest set aside and belonging especially to God for His use speaks in beautifully symbolic language about the Jewish foundation of the church.

I agree. I was not referring to the Passover meal, but to the ridding of leaven out of our houses (the temple of our bodies, our lives).

But the ridding of leaven is not done by literally searching our houses by candle light and gathering up all the leaven and disposing of it and eating our bread unleavened. That is the shadow. The reality is the light of God searches our hearts and minds and purges our conscience so that we are a new lump. That’s why Paul said “put away malice and envy and strife,” meaning the sinful desires and intents of our hearts, not dispose of all the leaven in your house.

I chose to separate our discussion about the kingdom and it’s beginning so as not to confuse it too much with the feasts, so there is another post which follows this one. I hope that’s okay.
 

Pilgrimer

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Yes, the great white throne judgment is after the 1,000 years, but heaven and earth will flee away at the beginning of the 1,000 years which is yet future.

“And when the thousand years are expired … I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no more place for them … and I saw a new heavens and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven …” Revelation 20:7-21:2

This says specifically that the white throne judgment and the heaven and earth fleeing away occurs after the thousand years are expired, not before.

It refers to a change of government from the kingdoms of this world to the Kingdom of Heaven ruled by Yeshua and his resurrected followers.

Ah, but that is what Paul wrote about in Hebrews when he explained how we are not come to Mt. Sinai, the “mount which might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words …” but we are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

Now it gets good … “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that speak on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain …”

And watch this … “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:18-29

Paul says God once spoke on earth, at Mt. Sinai, and the earth shook at His voice. But that now He has spoken from heaven and His voice shook not only the earth but also shook heaven and that shaking “removed” these shadows, the things that were “made,” the literal, earthly types and figures, so that the things which cannot be shaken (the eternal, spiritual realities) are left standing.

That word, the “removing” of those earthly things (the earthly kingdom, and the earthly city, and the earthly priesthood, and the earthly altar, and the earthly sacrifices, and the earthly temple with it’s earthly Holy and Holy of Holies which were all man-made shadows patterned after the true heavenly realities) they were “removed” = metathesis 3331 transferral or transportation (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law)-change, removing, translation.

The earthly man-made shadows were removed in order that the kingdom which cannot be moved or shaken, the heavenly kingdom which we have come to, it remains and will remain forever.

Now you see what all those prophecies about how the fig tree would cast it’s figs as if shaken by a mighty wind was apocalyptic imagery of the removing of the earthly kingdom of Israel, and how the stars being cast to the earth was about God shaking not only the earth as he did at Mt. Sinai, but how the heavens would also be shaken which would mean the downfall of the Jewish state. That’s the “change of government,” not the destruction of the heavens and earth, but the shaking of them.

Do you recall in the Revelation that God’s two witnesses, the Law and the Prophets, were killed and their dead bodies lay in the streets of Jerusalem and the world would rejoice that the Law and the Prophets were dead because the Jewish state and the Mosaic economy were destroyed? But they weren’t destroyed, they were “removed” and transferred to heaven, raised up to spiritual realities in fulfillment of the old earthly shadows.

My little granddaughter is coming to spend the weekend with me so I may not be able to talk much but I hope something I have said may have given you new food for thought, unless you think I have completely missed the mark on all this. I just know that the more I learn about the feasts, the more I appreciate what Jesus has accomplished, and the more I realize that it is only by God working in me that I can enjoy the reality of what the commandments of God have to say.

By the way, you do realize the Hebrew word for “commandment” (peh 6310) literally means “the mouth” (as a means of blowing, from the root word paah 6284 which means “to puff”), which is probably why the voice of God speaking commandments is associated in Scripture with a trumpet.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Pilgrimer

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Jesus did not die for our sins in the manner we are led to believe; no Son of Man may die for another's sins …


If the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t provide remission of sin, then there no sacrifice for sin as the Law of God requires and we are therefore without hope.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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