How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Dave L said:

“The one who says he is in the light but still hates his fellow Christian is still in the darkness.” (1 John 2:9) (NET)

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You still committed the Appeal to Ridicule logical fallacy. Your response doesn't take responsibility for your erroneous reasoning.

Dave L said:

If you must do something to save yourself, it is salvation by works. It is no different from any other world religion.

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I can agree with your theology if I eliminate the verses I've used in this thread to counter your Calvinistic unconditional election and irresistible grace.

Dave L said:

If you must do something to save yourself, it is salvation by works. It is no different from any other world religion.

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Hi Dave,
I have a question for you; do you consider it "works" to receive a gift?

OzSpen said:

I can agree with your theology if I eliminate the verses I've used in this thread to counter your Calvinistic unconditional election and irresistible grace.

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I like the term 'human responsibility'. This is in harmony with God's sovereignty in Scripture.

Dave L said:

Jesus was coaxing Jews to embrace the new covenant. Repent = change your mind.

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Dave,

Again you avoid the issue and add words to what Jesus said, 'Jesus was coaxing Jews'.

We have a word Down Under for that!



You might call it:



The content is the same.

Oz

logabe said:

Don't even know what it is... but if you want to use draw... I am fine with that.

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logabe,

So you don't know what 'helkuw' means? You are throwing the word around and now admit that you 'don't even know what it is'. Does't sound like you're interested in knowing either.

I will only use 'will draw' as the English meaning if that is what the Greek text of the first person, nominative case, indicative mood, future tense of helkusw means.

Please take the effort to do the exegesis of that word so you know exactly what Jesus meant.

Oz

farouk said:

I like the term 'human responsibility'. This is in harmony with God's sovereignty in Scripture.

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farouk,

That's as I see it also, but Dave sees that as works when we take human responsibility for responding or rejecting the Gospel.

In your view, is free will associated with human responsibility in responding to the Gospel proclamation. This proclamation comes with the invitation that gives people this option, 'Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life' (John 5:40 ESV).

Oz

OzSpen said:

farouk,

That's as I see it also, but Dave sees that as works when we take human responsibility for responding or rejecting the Gospel.

In your view, is free will associated with human responsibility in responding to the Gospel proclamation. This proclamation comes with the invitation that gives people this option, 'Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life' (John 5:40 ESV).

Oz

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I just don't like to use the phrase 'free will' because it can be made to mean all sorts of things that I might not think Scriptural; this is why I much prefer the term 'human responsibility'.

I think I see where @Dave L is coming from, although he can speak for himself.

farouk said:

I just don't like to use the phrase 'free will' because it can be made to mean all sorts of things that I might not think Scriptural; this is why I much prefer the term 'human responsibility'.

I think I see where @Dave L is coming from, although he can speak for himself.

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farouk,

I have no problem using the language of free will or free choice, as long as I define it within biblical parameters. 'Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ (Norman Geisler) and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty.

See my article, What is the nature of human free will?

In that exposition, I provide ample biblical examples to demonstrate the power of free choice given to human beings by the sovereign God. It started in the Garden with Adam and Eve and has not ceased.

Today I chose to eat a Kensington Pride mango and distributed some as gifts to the people in my village. It was my free will choice to give these gifts to the people 'as it is the season of good will'. I could have chosen stringy, sour, common mangoes but most wouldn't have enjoyed them. I didn't choose to distribute plums or peaches.

When it comes to salvation, salvation is provided by God alone. The gift of salvation is from Him.

Do I do nothing about His sovereign gift of grace? No, I receive His gift (John 1:12) but that acceptance of a gift is not doing works to receive salvation. It is accepting a gift God offers to me.

But I have the gift of the power of contrary choice given to every human being. I can choose to reject his offer/proclamation of salvation.

Oz

farouk said:

I just don't like to use the phrase 'free will' because it can be made to mean all sorts of things that I might not think Scriptural; this is why I much prefer the term 'human responsibility'.

I think I see where @Dave L is coming from, although he can speak for himself.

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Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. How were all the faithful in Hebrews 11 not born again?

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Hebrews is New Testament.

Dave L said:

But the new birth is as old as Abel in the garden of Eden.

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No it is not. It requires the blood of Christ which was not available until the resurrection.

Everyone since Adam has been promised that blood, but until they actually received it from the resurrection to the rapture, there was no born again.

A reality that will return with Israel and law.

Dave L said:

But it lists all of the faithful including Abel and Abraham = they were born again.

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Agree
..Out of the 'dead' realm into the child of God new realm.

>> "..... The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."


The blood was always 'alive' and spiritually shed...

Dave L said:

If your receiving means the difference between being saved or not, it changes the gift into a reward. It changes the free gift we receive just as the blind receive sight, into a work and the gospel into law. You believe because God saved you. Otherwise you could not, much less want to believe.

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I am trying but just cannot click with this kind of logic Dave.
"The word gift is an important one in the Bible, and it is good that we understand its definition and implications.

In the New Testament, there are several Greek words translated “gift.” Some of these words are used in contexts other than God’s gift of salvation, such as the reciprocal gift-giving of celebrants (Revelation 11:10), the things received from fathers (Matthew 7:11), offerings to a ministry (Philippians 4:17), and the gifts of the magi (Matthew 2:11).

However, when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift. Here are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God. It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10). It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15. It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15. This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17. In Romans 3:24, immediately following G
motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver."

What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God?