On How to be saved

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

LC627 said:
I'm not trying to make it seem like I don't value baptism. Baptism is a must for the believer. It is the putting away of the old man and a circumcision of the flesh, a work done by God. Baptism is important, but alone it does not save. Faith, belief, repentance, and baptism are all important but we must realize that ultimately it is the grace of God that saves. Those who truly believe the Gospel will be baptized.

The Bible can talk about baptism saving because it is connected with the union of Christ that saves, and pictures the death, burial, and resurrection. Baptism done without faith won't profit anything, just like faith without works (fruit) is dead.

The heart of a person is cleansed by faith (Acts 15:9) and we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1)

Amen. I believe that we are actually in agreement!

In addition to what you have said, baptism is often a confession of Jesus Christ before men when it does happen (see Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8); and as such I do not see how it can ever be done apart from faith in Him.

brakelite · Dec 4, 2018

Jesus considered it necessary to be baptised. Now if the Lord of glory, Son of the infinite Almighty, submitted Himself to baptism in order "to fulfill all righteousness", what audacity is it to think we have a choice?

Dave L · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
It was simply His timing. In the meanwhile, the Holy Ghost wasn't absent from the lives of the Jews and even Samaritans.

I agree, but Cornelius marked the inclusion of the Gentiles en masse.

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

Dave L said:
I agree, but the situation with Cornelius marked the inclusion of the Gentiles en masse.

No disagreement there.

bbyrd009 · Dec 4, 2018

brakelite said:
Jesus considered it necessary to be baptised. Now if the Lord of glory, Son of the infinite Almighty, submitted Himself to baptism in order "to fulfill all righteousness", what audacity is it to think we have a choice?

the audacity is in interpreting a literal ritual baptism imo, but that is not realized until later, as Scripture even brings out, later

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

brakelite said:
Jesus considered it necessary to be baptised. Now if the Lord of glory, Son of the infinite Almighty, submitted Himself to baptism in order "to fulfill all righteousness", what audacity is it to think we have a choice?

That is an excellent point.

amadeus · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Usually when the argument is won, it is because the Holy Spirit gave the victory to the one who was arguing for His pov. See Luke 21:15, Acts of the Apostles 6:10. (For He is the Spirit of truth; which also is not unknowable).

So then, all who are privy to the conversation can know who is right or wrong when the argument is said and done to its proper end.

In your heart it may be that God agrees with you versus the other guy, but when you open your mouth to speak it, don't expect the other guy to suddenly change his position. What is in his heart? Only God knows both hearts. Sometimes neither of those arguing may know his own heart.

As to winning on a forum such as this. Unless God's reveals Himself definitely [not by my faith or by your faith] we should not insist that the other guy admit we are right even though we believe we are. As I said God alone gives the increase to anyone. This means a favorable change according to Him. The majority does not decide what is right... neither do you and neither do I.

God does.

He chose for us to live by faith rather than by knowledge. We do have knowledge but probably for most things we cannot really recognize the difference between what we really know and what we only believe by faith in the things of God. If you disagree with this as some certainly do, you may have trouble even discussing differences in your stand with the stand of others in the things of God. Hard headed people don't easily or even ever give up, without regard to being correct or in error...

Have we communicated?

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

If you consider that those who hold the word of God to be the final authority to be the "hard-headed ones", then this is where I see you to be coming from.

If someone is "hard-headed" about a doctrine that is not backed up by the word of the Lord, then they are in the wrong. They are holding their own opinion to be the final authority rather than the word of God.

But if someone is "hard-headed" because they know that the word of the Lord teaches the specific thing that they are being "hard-headed" about, then they are simply being adamant about adhering to the teaching of God's word on the subject, and, impaho, they are right to do so.

And yes, God knows the hearts of those who are hard-headed about their own opinions (contrary to the word of the Lord)...that their hearts are hard just like their heads are hard.

amadeus said:
we should not insist that the other guy admit we are right even though we believe we are.

I do not insist that the other guy admit that I am right...but I will insist that, if the word of the Lord declares a certain thing, that he agree with the word of the Lord on that issue if he or she wants to call himself/herself a Bible-believing Christian before the Lord. It is not about me being right...but if someone disagrees with the Lord's word, then they are wrong; and in order for them to be right they need to come into agreement with the Lord's word on the subject matter...unless they want to be wrong. I suppose that they have the right to be wrong since they have the right to hold their own opinions contrary to the word of the Lord. The Lord is that Spirit of truth...so if we are taught by Him our opinions will be in alignment with the truth; and nothing we believe will be contrary to the word of the Lord...this is why we are to study to shew ourselves approved unto God, workmen that do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For the devil, he is the father of lies. And therefore, the way to combat him most effectively in our lives would be to confront him with the truth of God's word...if this means that I am right and his servants are wrong, then I am not ashamed of being right!

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

amadeus said:
The majority does not decide what is right... neither do you and neither do I.

See Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv), Philippians 1:9 (kjv), John 7:24.

amadeus · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If you consider that those who hold the word of God to be the final authority to be the "hard-headed ones", then this is where I see you to be coming from.

If someone is "hard-headed" about a doctrine that is not backed up by the word of the Lord, then they are in the wrong. They are holding their own opinion to be the final authority rather than the word of God.

But if someone is "hard-headed" because they know that the word of the Lord teaches the specific thing that they are being "hard-headed" about, then they are simply being adamant about adhering to the teaching of God's word on the subject, and, impaho, they are right to do so.

And yes, God knows the hearts of those who are hard-headed about their own opinions (contrary to the word of the Lord)...that their hearts are hard just like their heads are hard.

I do not insist that the other guy admit that I am right...but I will insist that, if the word of the Lord declares a certain thing, that he agree with the word of the Lord on that issue if he or she wants to call himself/herself a Bible-believing Christian. It is not about me being right...but if someone disagrees with the Lord's word, then they are wrong; and in order for them to be right they need to come into agreement with the Lord's word on the subject matter...unless they want to be wrong. I suppose that they have the right to be wrong since they have the right to hold their own opinions contrary to the word of the Lord. The Lord is that Spirit of truth...so if we are taught by Him our opinions will be in alignment with the truth; and nothing we believe will be contrary to the word of the Lord...this is why we are to study to shew ourselves approved unto God, workmen that do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For the devil, he is the father of lies. And therefore, the way to combat him most effectively in our lives would be to confront him with the truth of God's word...if this means that I am right and his servants are wrong, then I am not ashamed of being right!

A lot of words simply to support your own position which someone holding the opposite view from you on certain issues might write exactly about himself.

Remember what Solomon wrote?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

What he wrote still applies to men today, even some or many who have been born again... as I now see it. We all believe we are right or we would change what we do and what we say... if we are sincere and honest in our purpose... to agree with our beliefs. We must admit the possibility of being in error about some things we believe. If we really do, will not God then guide our open and contrite hearts in the right direction by the Holy Spirit in us whether we are wrong or right? If we refuse to admit the possibility that we are in error on any given point, might that not be quenching the Holy Spirit of God?

Over the years, I have served God He has changed in me more then one thing I believed sincerely to be the truth, God's truth. This did not happen those first several years I served Him... with few exceptions. Rather those changes began to happen after I was away from God for a period of about 10 years ending in 2002. Since then the changes have been coming in me... and guess what? God is not finished with me yet!

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

Did those changes happen because you returned to God or as the result of you being away from Him?

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

amadeus said:
A lot of words simply to support your own position which someone holding the opposite view from you on certain issues might write exactly about himself.

Remember what Solomon wrote?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

What he wrote still applies to men today, even some or many who have been born again... as I now see it. We all believe we are right or we would change what we do and what we say... if we are sincere and honest in our purpose... to agree with our beliefs. We must admit the possibility of being in error about some things we believe. If we really do, will not God then guide our open and contrite hearts in the right direction by the Holy Spirit in us whether we are wrong or right? If we refuse to admit the possibility that we are in error on any given point, might that not be quenching the Holy Spirit of God?

Over the years, I have served God He has changed in me more then one thing I believed sincerely to be the truth, God's truth. This did not happen those first several years I served Him... with few exceptions. Rather those changes began to happen after I was away from God for a period of about 10 years ending in 2002. Since then the changes have been coming in me... and guess what? God is not finished with me yet!

Indeed...if someone knows what the scripture says and does not believe it, or turns a blind eye to scriptures (that have been referenced in order to correct an incorrect view on something), that person may very well still believe that they are right...however they cannot honestly call themselves Bible-believing Christians if they hold an opinion that is contrary to the word of God, knowing that the word of God is contrary to their opinion...their position would be that they believe themselves to be right but God to be wrong...therefore can they even claim John 3:16 for themselves in light of John 3:36 (kjv)?

bbyrd009 · Dec 4, 2018

now if you can only find Word!

which must be heard
can't read Word

amadeus · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
See Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv), Philippians 1:9 (kjv), John 7:24.

"Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil." Isaiah 56:1-2

"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;" Phil 1:9

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." John 7:24

Good verses, but they do not change what I wrote in the above post #190. The only way a person can grow in and toward God is by following the lead of the Holy Spirit. People judge and pray and love all of the time. People who do love God in a measure do these things and still at times stumble and do it wrong... because they get ahead of God instead listening to and following Him in the Holy Spirit. For this reason Paul admonishes:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Then we look at this verse:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

But, don't believe for a minute that everyone of us will instantaneously correctly know all things and correctly remember all things that Jesus has said to us... We are at different places in our walk. Some have milk still directly from the mother, while others have advanced drinking it from a bottle they hold themselves. Some have progressed to meat... but are all meat eaters the same?

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
See Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv), Philippians 1:9 (kjv), John 7:24.

I quoted these verses in response to the following statement:

amadeus said:
The majority does not decide what is right... neither do you and neither do I.

In order to say that yes we do decide what is right and wrong...that is what judgment basically is.

bbyrd009 · Dec 4, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
now if you can only find Word!

which must be heard
can't read Word

which don't get me wrong i'm sure you have already heard k

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

amadeus said:
But, don't believe for a minute that everyone of us will instantaneously be correctly know all things and correctly remembering all things that Jesus has said to us... We are at different places in our walk. Some have milk still directly from the mother, while others have advanced drinking it from a bottle they hold themselves. Some have progressed to meat... but are all meat eaters the same?

Whether I am on milk or solid food, the judgment of the Lord holds fast and is the same...understanding the judgment of God is the things of being weaned from the breast...basic doctrines!

justbyfaith · Dec 4, 2018

amadeus said:
If we refuse to admit the possibility that we are in error on any given point, might that not be quenching the Holy Spirit of God?

Indeed this is true; while it would not be true of me if I refuse to admit the possibility that God's word is in error on any given point.

amadeus · Dec 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
If you consider that those who hold the word of God to be the final authority to be the "hard-headed ones", then this is where I see you to be coming from.

If someone is "hard-headed" about a doctrine that is not backed up by the word of the Lord, then they are in the wrong. They are holding their own opinion to be the final authority rather than the word of God.

The "hard-headed" ones are those who are unwilling to seriously question their own beliefs. There is no real danger in that. On the contrary if a person is right, will not God confirm it in His own heart. Jesus toward the end effectively stood alone with God. All of his closest followers were gone but he refused to bend. None of us here are Jesus. None of us here have all that Jesus had. Admitting that is a beginning to opening our heart to God's work to be done within us.

But if someone is "hard-headed" because they know that the word of the Lord teaches the specific thing that they are being "hard-headed" about, then they are simply being adamant about adhering to the teaching of God's word on the subject, and, impaho, they are right to do so.

If this is so, when Jesus certainly knew the very best answers to Pilate's question why did he remain silent here?

"And when he was accuse1d of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly." Matt 27:12-14

Solomon wrote the answer several centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem if we are able to understand it. Jesus did.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

How is now that we are to know when it is time to speak and when it is time to be silent? By hearing His voice now. Are we not His sheep?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5

You cannot just quote scripture as apparently goats also read the scriptures. Only sheep always recognize his voice.

And yes, God knows the hearts of those who are hard-headed about their own opinions (contrary to the word of the Lord)...that their hearts are hard just like their heads are hard.

I do not insist that the other guy admit that I am right...but I will insist that, if the word of the Lord declares a certain thing, that he agree with the word of the Lord on that issue if he or she wants to call himself/herself a Bible-believing Christian before the Lord. It is not about me being right...but if someone disagrees with the Lord's word, then they are wrong; and in order for them to be right they need to come into agreement with the Lord's word on the subject matter...unless they want to be wrong. I suppose that they have the right to be wrong since they have the right to hold their own opinions contrary to the word of the Lord. The Lord is that Spirit of truth...so if we are taught by Him our opinions will be in alignment with the truth; and nothing we believe will be contrary to the word of the Lord...this is why we are to study to shew ourselves approved unto God, workmen that do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For the devil, he is the father of lies. And therefore, the way to combat him most effectively in our lives would be to confront him with the truth of God's word...if this means that I am right and his servants are wrong, then I am not ashamed of being right!

In all of this you need to understand the difference between what is written and what is the Word of God. When Jesus said "it is written" he meant the Word of God because for him it was all Alive. For many who quote scripture it may not be. This difference is why sincere believers in God very often disagree with each other.

amadeus · Dec 4, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
now if you can only find Word!

which must be heard
can't read Word

@justbyfaith Pay attention to what @bbyrd009 is saying. This is perhaps the primary reason you disagree with others and they disagree with you even though you and they are students of the same Bible.

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