2 Thessalonians 1:8

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Ernest T. Bass

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You're missing the point...

The commandment is not for the salvation of the person being baptized, but for those who look on, that they come to understanding by that which is revealed of God through manifestation in the world. Likewise, we are not saved by Christ's death in the flesh, but by His life in the spirit.

Your presentation is incomplete without carrying it through to include the meaning behind the manifestation as being the end of the matter and the point. The foreshadowing manifestation is not the point. For this reason John said, "He must increase, but I must decrease." "He" being Christ, the Last, the life-giving Spirit. Baptism by water is for the First, but the Holy Spirit is for the Last.

I do not see where you are getting the idea that the command to be baptized is for "those who look on". In Acts 2:38 the command to be baptized is for those who are lost in their sins and therefore the lost are commanded to be baptized "for the remission of sins".

Eph 4:5 today there is just "one baptism" that is in effect, not two. And that one baptism is the baptism of Christ's great commission that is commanded to all men, that saves. NO one today is baptized with the Holy Spirit, no one today was ever promised this baptism and this baptism was a prophecy of Joel that the Lord fulfilled in Acts 2 and Acts 10 whereby this baptism has ceased, ended.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Sinners obey for the wrong reason. You need the new birth for the right reason to prevail.
The new birth takes place when one is water baptized.

No one has to be first "regenerated" out of their "totally depraved" state where then they can then obey, that is Calvinism and not found in the Bible.
 
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Dave L

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The new birth takes place when one is water baptized.

No one has to be first "regenerated" out of their "totally depraved" state where then they can then obey, that is Calvinism and not found in the Bible.
The saved thief was not baptized. How about deathbed conversions? Babies? Those in prison and out of the way places?
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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The saved thief was not baptized.

(1) the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation for the NT was not even yet in effect when the thief was promised paradise, Hebrews 9:16-17. The NT requires "to believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead" Romans 10:9. Also the NT requires one to be baptized into Christ's death, Romans 6:3-5. At the time of the thief being on his cross and promised paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected, so the thief could not meet either of these two NT requirements. So again, the thief is not, cannot be an example of NT salvation.

(2) your argument above is based on the ASSUMPTION that the "thief was not baptized". There is not a verse that definitively states that the thief was not baptized or definitively states that he was baptized. One can only make assumptions about this issue.

(3) Matthew 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." When Christ was on earth He had been given the power, authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. But Christ is no longer on earth today, He left the earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) so no one today can claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief. When Christ left earth He left behind His word,the NT gospel that is His authority on earth today and His word requires one to believe (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:5) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16)......Luke 6:46
 
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Dave L

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(1) the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation for the NT was not even yet in effect when the thief was promised paradise, Hebrews 9:16-17. The NT requires "to believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead" Romans 10:9. Also the NT requires one to be baptized into Christ's death, Romans 6:3-5. At the time of the thief being on his cross and promised paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected, so the thief could not meet either of these two NT requirements. So again, the thief is not, cannot be an example of NT salvation.

(2) your argument above is based on the ASSUMPTION that the "thief was not baptized". There is not a verse that definitively states that the thief was not baptized or definitively states that he was baptized. One can only make assumptions about this issue.

(3) Matthew 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." When Christ was on earth He had been given the power, authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. But Christ is no longer on earth today, He left the earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) so no one today can claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief. When Christ left earth He left behind His word,the NT gospel that is His authority on earth today and His word requires one to believe (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:5) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16)......Luke 6:46
Were you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ by immersion in water as a believer?
 

CoreIssue

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(1) the thief is not an example of NT gospel salvation for the NT was not even yet in effect when the thief was promised paradise, Hebrews 9:16-17. The NT requires "to believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead" Romans 10:9. Also the NT requires one to be baptized into Christ's death, Romans 6:3-5. At the time of the thief being on his cross and promised paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected, so the thief could not meet either of these two NT requirements. So again, the thief is not, cannot be an example of NT salvation.

(2) your argument above is based on the ASSUMPTION that the "thief was not baptized". There is not a verse that definitively states that the thief was not baptized or definitively states that he was baptized. One can only make assumptions about this issue.

(3) Matthew 9:6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." When Christ was on earth He had been given the power, authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. But Christ is no longer on earth today, He left the earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) so no one today can claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief. When Christ left earth He left behind His word,the NT gospel that is His authority on earth today and His word requires one to believe (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:5) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16)......Luke 6:46

Born-again went into effect when Christ resurrected.

The Old Testament saints could not ascend to heaven until then.

No, the thief was not born again on the cross. But he descended with Christ into paradise and then ascended with all the other saints to heaven, born-again.

Not glorified because the resurrection and rapture still future and still is.
 

CoreIssue

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Were you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ by immersion in water as a believer?

Water baptism is a sign, a declaration, of the baptism of the Holy Spirit within.And it is a work it does not save.

It actually does not mean one is born again because they could be lying when they received water baptism.
 
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Dave L

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Water baptism is a sign, a declaration, of the baptism of the Holy Spirit within.And it is a work it does not save.

It actually does not mean one is born again because they could be lying when they received water baptism.
I was asking Earnest T if he was baptized using the scriptural formula given in Acts. Just to see if he has all his ducks in a row before calling others out.
 

CoreIssue

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The baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ throughout Acts.

Repent in the name Christ, not be baptized in the name of Christ, for salvation.

Like go to the polls, and vote for the best man, for the sake of the nation.

Just going to the polls does not mean you will vote for the best man.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible never teaches water baptism for salvation. Hence to add it to salvation is a totally erroneous understanding of the verse.
 
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Dave L

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Repent in the name Christ, not be baptized in the name of Christ, for salvation.

Like go to the polls, and vote for the best man, for the sake of the nation.

Just going to the polls does not mean you will vote for the best man.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible never teaches water baptism for salvation. Hence to add it to salvation is a totally erroneous understanding of the verse.
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38) (NET)

So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.” (Acts 10:48) (NET)

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus,” (Acts 19:5) (NET)

(For the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)” (Acts 8:16) (NET)
 

CoreIssue

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Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38) (NET)

So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.” (Acts 10:48) (NET)

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus,” (Acts 19:5) (NET)

(For the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)” (Acts 8:16) (NET)
Two points:The net Bible is a paraphrase, not a study Bible.

You change the wording but didn't change the meaning. What I said is still accurate.

Use the rules of grammar and take it out a conjunction form.

Repent in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 
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Dave L

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Two points:The net Bible is a paraphrase, not a study Bible.

You change the wording but didn't change the meaning. What I said is still accurate.

Use the rules of grammar and take it out a conjunction form.

Repent in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Try the same verses in any other translation. Did Peter get it wrong?
 

CoreIssue

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Try the same verses in any other translation. Did Peter get it wrong?

No, the problem is you're trying to read something somebody wrote 2000 years ago in today's terms.

Plus I explained you simply miss reading it altogether.

To have it your way you have just said the Bible contradicts itself, which he does not.
 

CoreIssue

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Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38) (NET)

So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.” (Acts 10:48) (NET)

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus,” (Acts 19:5) (NET)

(For the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)” (Acts 8:16) (NET)

I repeat, water baptism is a worldly declaration of the inner reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But you want to keep saying it plays a role in salvation when it absolutely does not.
 
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Dave L

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I repeat, water baptism is a worldly declaration of the inner reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But you want to keep saying it plays a role in salvation when it absolutely does not.
When did I say that? I already said the thief on the cross, or many death bed converts were not baptized.