BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,464
31,590
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Dear, dear Amadeus.
Soooooo you have zero evidence that 1 Corinthians 13 says we are be charitable to those with whom we disagree?

Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6.

Can you quote at least a single passage from scripture that supports your statement?
Curious Mary
Do you believe I am adding to God's Word? Perhaps you should ask yourself what someone's word is? Is it not what comes out of his mouth? Is it different with God? Has He confined it to the pages of a book, even the Bible, or did it become the man of flesh, Jesus?

"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

To whom would, or should, we be charitable [according to one definition, charitable = kindness and tolerance in our judgment of others]... only to those with whom we agree?

What does this verse mean?
"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Phil 2:3

Who is this other? Could it be someone with whom we disagree, even a brother in the Lord? How about being kind and tolerant even toward those who are certainly our enemies in the things of God. Could we be kind to them and tolerant with them and even esteem them better than we do ourselves?

You want a simple black and white answer, but simply look at the example Jesus provided in himself:

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Luke 23:34

Was he forgiving his followers, or the Romans who did the crucifying ,or the Jews who instigate the whole thing? Or did he forgive them all? Is not that a perfect example of be charitable while being no respecter of persons?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,397
1,672
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mary, I have asked you the question "in your opinion/beliefs, how should are person who believes some false tenets be treated?" half a dozen different ways now. You have not answered it again and again. And yes, I find Catholicism to be a church that believes some false tenets.

I advocate that people whom believe false tenets should be treated with respect still (which includes their beliefs). Hence my respect of Catholic people and their beliefs, even though I find some of those beliefs to be false.

Thus far, you seem to be of the opinion that respecting someone's less-than-completely-true-beliefs is wrong and sinful. Therefore, by your logic my respecting of Catholicism and Catholic individuals is sinful and should be repented of.

If this is not your view, I welcome you to clarify it now. But until then, that's the impression I have.
Let the record show that you in FACT never asked me the question: Do you want me to REPENT of respecting a faith I find to not be supported by the Bible?

Also let the record show that I believe that by respecting your beliefs/teachings/doctrines, which is opposite of the teachings of The Church established in scripture, is sinful and should be repented of.

Mary
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,397
1,672
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe I am adding to God's Word? Perhaps you should ask yourself what someone's word is? Is it not what comes out of his mouth? Is it different with God? Has He confined it to the pages of a book, even the Bible, or did it become the man of flesh, Jesus?

"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

To whom would, or should, we be charitable [according to one definition, charitable = kindness and tolerance in our judgment of others]... only to those with whom we agree?

What does this verse mean?
"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" Phil 2:3

Who is this other? Could it be someone with whom we disagree, even a brother in the Lord? How about being kind and tolerant even toward those who are certainly our enemies in the things of God. Could we be kind to them and tolerant with them and even esteem them better than we do ourselves?

You want a simple black and white answer, but simply look at the example Jesus provided in himself:

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Luke 23:34

Was he forgiving his followers or the Romans who did the crucifying or the Jews who instigate the whole thing? Or did he forgive them all? Is not that a perfect example of be charitable while being no respecter of persons?
I do not believe you are adding to Gods word, I KNOW it since 1 Corinthians says NOTHING about being charitable to others beliefs as you have stated. You added your personal opinions to that verse.

Luke 23:34 has NOTHING to do with the context of our conversation so I have no idea why you would (partially) quote it and take it out of context.

Mary
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let the record show that you in FACT never asked me the question: Do you want me to REPENT of respecting a faith I find to not be supported by the Bible?

Also let the record show that I believe that by respecting your beliefs/teachings/doctrines, which is opposite of the teachings of The Church established in scripture, is sinful and should be repented of.

Mary
Ok, so I find the Catholic church to teach some false beliefs. Therefore, (by your logic) I am sinning when I:
- Correct people when they say falsehoods about Catholic beliefs
- Stand up for a Catholic when they are mocked for their beliefs by others
- Love and support Catholic individuals.
- Learn better what Catholics believe by attending Catholic services, reading Catholic materials, and conversing with Catholic individuals.

Nice to know you think I need to repent of these things.
 
Last edited:

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,464
31,590
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hmmmm.....quoting MULTIPLE passages from scripture that support what I believe and practice is being to literal. Fascinating. Does this mean in the future you will forgo quoting scripture to support what you believe and practice?

Mary
How about if I were to say that I am simply being led by the Holy Spirit in what I write here, be it a verbatim citation of scripture or a paraphrase, according to what God has put into my heart?

Are you too literal? Is God? Is the Catholic Church? Is anyone? What does it mean to be literal as opposed to being spiritual? If we are honest according to what we believe, or at least we at striving to be, is that enough for you or for me or for God?

Black and white rules are fine as long as they are correct for the situation according to God. Is God held in check by black and white rules?

" For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" Isaiah 5:9

That verse compares God with the man of flesh that each one of is at our beginning. Should we not be moving toward His ways?

" Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" I John 3:2

Is not our vision of Him improving? If it is not, should it not be improving?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,397
1,672
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, so I find the Catholic church to teach some false beliefs. Therefore, (by your logic) I should repent of:
- Correcting people when they say falsehoods about Catholic beliefs
- Standing up for a Catholic when they are mocked for their beliefs by others
- Loving and supporting Catholic individuals.
- Learning better what Catholics believe by attending Catholic services, reading Catholic materials, and conversing with Catholic individuals.

Nice to know you think I need to repent of these things.

Since it is obvious you will never admit that you never asked that question I intend to get back to the subject of this thread.

Respectfully, Mary
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since it is obvious you will never admit that you never asked that question I intend to get back to the subject of this thread.

Respectfully, Mary
There's nothing respectful about you!

And by your logic I am a sinner for respecting you and Catholicism! And say that I should repent of loving you!

No, I do not accept this belief of yours. I do not find it scriptural. I am a disciple of the Son of God whom taught us to bless those that curse us, and He when he was wrongly crucified He loved those that hammered in the nails and begged God for their forgiveness. And I likewise love all people, regardless of how correct their beliefs are. And that's not remotely sinful, but rather following in my Lord's footsteps.
 
Last edited:

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,825
19,303
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Not at all. Just bein obedient.

Your being DISobedient will get you nowhere . . .


Amen. There seems to be a tendency towards an unbalanced view of things...as in...there is only a danger of DOING that which is lawful and right to be seen as trying to save oneself as opposed to humbly doing what is according to one's conscience. But an ignoring of the other extreme way of seeing things...that of lawlessness...is not considered at all. We are not to transgress the laws of God. Grace is not for disobedience to God.

In truth we are saved by both faith AND works. Not by works of the law (Judaism) ...but the works of faith and righteousness.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
In truth we are saved by both faith AND works. Not by works of the law (Judaism) ...but the works of faith and righteousness.
No. We need to be very clear that those who are saved by grace are justified by faith UNTO good works (Eph 2:8-10) Unless we understand the meaning of imputed righteousness, we will go around in circles.

ROMANS 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,825
19,303
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No. We need to be very clear that those who are saved by grace are justified by faith UNTO good works (Eph 2:8-10) Unless we understand the meaning of imputed righteousness, we will go around in circles.

ROMANS 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You don't see this, of course. But James relied on the followers of Christ in his day to see this...

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You need to go back to the bible again....and readjust your interpretations. There is a balance to the word that you are entirely missing...in favour of a partisan and unbalanced viewpoint....that misses the mark by a country mile.

The truth is in the dialectic whereby 2 seemingly opposing statements add up to the truth. The truth is bigger than a human viewpoint. Maybe one day you will see that. The bible is not understood by a human interpretation or religious position.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,825
19,303
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I quoted AN ENTIRE CHAPTER from Romans. Not a human viewpoint. Which means that you reject Scripture for your own fantasies.


I didn't post the whole chapter that refutes your conclusions since I thought you knew the bible better than this...

Read James 2
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh goodnees no Scott. I would never do that to Him.

I just believe (and practice) what He said: He took bread saying this IS my body.

He said
he is the bread, the living bread, that came down from heaven and anyone that eats of it will not die, will live forever and whoever eats that bread abide in me, and I in them

Maybe, someday, you will believe what he said also? I believe it is stupid NOT to believe Him.

Mary
I have another one for you...

"Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was white as snow."

Was the lamb an actual lamb, or the Lamb of God?


...You are taking children's story literally, but missing the point.
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,397
1,672
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have another one for you...

"Mary had a little lamb whose fleece was white as snow."

Was the lamb an actual lamb, or the Lamb of God?


...You are taking children's story literally, but missing the point.
Oh fun...Bible study. Now I can teach you what the bible says about Jesus being the lamb that was sacrificed.

Twice John called Jesus the lamb of God in the book of John.

In the book of Acts Philip equated Jesus as the lamb spoken of in Isaiah.

In 1 Corinthians Jesus is called the paschal lamb who has been sacrificed. (look up to word paschal)

1 Peter equates Christ as the lamb.

What did the Jews sacrifice at Passover in Jesus time?

Jesus said you must eat my body and drink my blood to have life in you and anyone that eats of it will not die that they will live forever and whoever eats that bread abides in me, and I in them.

Sooooo please do tell me Scott, HOW do you accomplish what Jesus said you MUST do?

Bible study Mary
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh fun...Bible study. Now I can teach you what the bible says about Jesus being the lamb that was sacrificed.

Twice John called Jesus the lamb of God in the book of John.

In the book of Acts Philip equated Jesus as the lamb spoken of in Isaiah.

In 1 Corinthians Jesus is called the paschal lamb who has been sacrificed. (look up to word paschal)

1 Peter equates Christ as the lamb.

What did the Jews sacrifice at Passover in Jesus time?

Jesus said you must eat my body and drink my blood to have life in you and anyone that eats of it will not die that they will live forever and whoever eats that bread abides in me, and I in them.

Sooooo please do tell me Scott, HOW do you accomplish what Jesus said you MUST do?

Bible study Mary
"He who has an ear let him here what the Spirit says" ...rather than make a ritual of what the language that was "confounded" by God says.

"Be wiser than the serpent."
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
Not at all. Just being obedient.

Your being DISobedient will get you nowhere . . .

,but when you're disobedient God's discipline and sanctification comes upon you, right?

1 Thess 5 Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22reject every kind of evil.

23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,397
1,672
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"He who has an ear let him here what the Spirit says" ...rather than make a ritual of what the language that was "confounded" by God says.

"Be wiser than the serpent."
Are you going to at least TRY to answer what scripture says you MUST do?

HOW do you, Scott, accomplish what Jesus said you MUST do?

Or is it to hard of a saying for you so you walk away??

Curious Mary
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you going to at least TRY to answer what scripture says you MUST do?

HOW do you, Scott, accomplish what Jesus said you MUST do?

Or is it to hard of a saying for you so you walk away??

Curious Mary
I should indeed walk away...because after I have answered you, you disrespectfully act as though I did not.

I think what you meant to ask...is: What does that look like? Or: Would you please explain how it is that you "hear what the Spirit says" rather than trying to speculate what the language of the scriptures which God has confounded means?"

The answer is - you don't "do" anything. That's the problem. You are trying to "do" something.

It is God who does everything. We can only ask. And if you have asked and you don't know the answer...keep asking. Meanwhile, that would mean you have no business telling others what is right and wrong according to the scriptures.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,464
31,590
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do not believe you are adding to Gods word, I KNOW it since 1 Corinthians says NOTHING about being charitable to others beliefs as you have stated. You added your personal opinions to that verse.
I guess you really believe that.

Luke 23:34 has NOTHING to do with the context of our conversation so I have no idea why you would (partially) quote it and take it out of context.

Mary

Perhaps not your context, but mine... Jesus did not exhibit charity? Hmmm?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22