Antinomianism (faith without works): Where Cognitive Dissonance Lives

justaname · Dec 11, 2018

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is not our works that save us...it is God in his mercy. We are not our own workmanship, we are his. Also I believe it is important to look to when we were saved...even when we were dead in our transgressions. And why? So that in the ages to come he might show his grace in kindness.

I wrote this earlier, and although it is not exactly the conversation here it has a similar tenor to it.

"There are many in the academic realm that have great knowledge concerning the gospel and all the greater intricacies surrounding it. They have vast knowledge of the history of the people to whom the gospel first came. They know the unfolding of the story of the church that fostered and shared the gospel. They likely even know many who have been greatly impacted and live in and through the gospel. Yet they themselves have not been moved emotionally by the gospel. They have not allowed the truth and gravity of this blessed message to transverse the twelve-inch path from head to heart. Such are in a sad state of affairs, one of a hardened heart. Here they have a complete cognitive experience with the gospel, yet they are not apt to embrace the life that accompanies this gospel. They have no regard for the Lord of the gospel, and they are not so moved by the Spirit as to hold it dear.

The hindrance of such a terrible condition is so desperate of a state. It is like having a carrot dangling before the nose of a beast without the beast ever being able to taste it. It is a matter of having faith in ones own intelligence over having faith in the one who gave them intelligence. The knowledge they posses is cold and lifeless and is nothing more than an academic exercise. Such is not a saving knowledge. Similar to the demons knowing that God is one, academics can know the dogma of the gospel without ever obtaining the blessed life of faith.

The accompanying flood of emotion that is ushered in from allowing the message of the gospel to penetrate the heart is life changing. It is this life change that is an evidence of a true faith. True religion, true faith is a pairing of cognitive experience and emotional experience. Without question one without the other is simply deficient. The two are in an eternal symbiotic dance culminating in a true religion that is empowered by a true faith. With man being stirred by his affections he leaps into action expressing the greatest state of the human experience, love. This champion of the emotions, love, is the expression that is not to be slighted when it comes to salvation. If love is not an intrinsic outpouring coupled with the cognitive information, then the faith and religion must stand questioned."

In this what I postulate is not a faith that is an adherence to a set of laws, for if the law could save there would be no need for the Christ. Yet it is a condition of the heart that must be addressed. This is not something we can do on our own, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. Through this work by the Spirit we enter into a state that is most easily expressed as love. Thus as love our affection is posited Godward. If God is the greatest of affections, there is no law we are beholden to, for love fulfills the law. Never was the Christian beholden to Law, only beholden to Christ.

justaname · Dec 11, 2018

James Forthwright said:
By the same token; If you need to be told to honor the Sabbath (the fourth commandment) you might not be born again.

This actually is a fallacious argument. How would one know to honor the Shabbat unless you were told? Is this just something all infants just know intuitively? Or perhaps this is just an attempt to derail that OP?

Nancy · Dec 11, 2018

Phoneman777 said:
My Gospel is truth : that we are saved by grace through faith and that faith is evidenced by the obedience Christ in us grants us the power to perform. You don't have any gospel to call clean or dirty - just a lie of the devil which says you by dead faith may obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

My Gospel is also Truth: that we are saved by grace through faith and that faith is evidenced by my fruit. We are obedient from the heart, "We love Him because He first loved us." : "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance." Romans 6:17
If obeying God seems a burden to anybody...it is NOT obedience from the heart, but more like "works of the flesh"

brakelite · Dec 12, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
Something to strive for but never become...

Heb 13:8 said:
Sinning is simply a part of this fallen world, unless you living in fantasy?

Master, we caught this woman in adultery. We want to stone her. What do you think.?
After a pause, and her accusers slink away, Jesus says to the woman, I forgive you. Go and sin no more. You will never succeed of course, you will commit adultery again, but no worries. Everyone is doing it right? Just try your hardest, after all, I know you aren't living in a fantasy world. Sin is everywhere. You have no hope of overcoming, even though I ask you to overcome, is just the way the world is. Not even with Gods own Spirit inside you giving you direct access to the throne of the almighty, even though you are a partaker of the divine nature...a sinner and adulterer you are you vile woman, and such you will always be. When I ask you to repent and turn away from sin, I know I'm asking the impossible. So just ignore me okay? You can humour me once in a while by refusing perhaps to sleep with a strange once a month or so, but let's not sweat the details. Live your abundant life, never mind me and my impossible demands and as for my commandments, well, at best they are merely suggestions. Just a rough guide to get you on your way. But once you are up and running, don't give them a second thought. See you in glory sinner.

mjrhealth · Dec 12, 2018

brakelite said:
Master, we caught this woman in adultery. We want to stone her. What do you think.?
After a pause, and her accusers slink away, Jesus says to the woman, I forgive you. Go and sin no more. You will never succeed of course, you will commit adultery again, but no worries. Everyone is doing it right? Just try your hardest, after all, I know you aren't living in a fantasy world. Sin is everywhere. You have no hope of overcoming, even though I ask you to overcome, is just the way the world is. Not even with Gods own Spirit inside you giving you direct access to the throne of the almighty, even though you are a partaker of the divine nature...a sinner and adulterer you are you vile woman, and such you will always be. When I ask you to repent and turn away from sin, I know I'm asking the impossible. So just ignore me okay? You can humour me once in a while by refusing perhaps to sleep with a strange once a month or so, but let's not sweat the details. Live your abundant life, never mind me and my impossible demands and as for my commandments, well, at best they are merely suggestions. Just a rough guide to get you on your way. But once you are up and running, don't give them a second thought. See you in glory sinner.

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and that is why you have none.

brakelite · Dec 12, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and that is why you have none.

You know don't you that I don't believe a word of what I said above. But that is what heb13:8 was saying. You obviously agree with him. P personally, I think I will take my stand with Jesus. That if He asks us to do something, first, I will accept it as an authoritive request. And by faith I will believe he will grant me whatever power needful to carry out his request . That is righteousness by faith. You guys show your complete and utter lack of faith by claiming you cannot cease from sin. It is you who needs to come to Jesus for life. But do you have the faith? Because from where I sit, coming to Jesus is the only solution to sin.
And if one class of Christians who have accepted God's mercy and grace, accept that they are fully justified by the blood of the Lamb, but are constantly preaching r that they cannot stop sinning, and another class of Christian who also have accepted the mercy and grace of God and are therefore justified by the blood of the Lamb, saying by the power and grace of God I can overcome, who is it do you think that needs to draw closer to Jesus?
Don't get me wrong. I am not claiming sinless perfection. But I am absolutely claimng the power is there. It is possible!
Have I overcome all my weaknesses and sin? No, not yet. I'm a work in progress. But I am God's workmanship. To Him be the glory. I have no power of my own for without Him I can do nothing. But with Him all things are possible to them that believe!

mjrhealth · Dec 12, 2018

brakelite said:
You know don't you that I don't believe a word of what I said above. But that is what heb13:8 was saying. You obviously agree with him. P personally, I think I will take my stand with Jesus. That if He asks us to do something, first, I will accept it as an authoritive request. And by faith I will believe he will grant me whatever power needful to carry out his request . That is righteousness by faith. You guys show your complete and utter lack of faith by claiming you cannot cease from sin. It is you who needs to come to Jesus for life. But do you have the faith? Because from where I sit, coming to Jesus is the only solution to sin.
And if one class of Christians who have accepted God's mercy and grace, accept that they are fully justified by the blood of the Lamb, but are constantly preaching r that they cannot stop sinning, and another class of Christian who also have accepted the mercy and grace of God and are therefore justified by the blood of the Lamb, saying by the power and grace of God I can overcome, who is it do you think that needs to draw closer to Jesus?
Don't get me wrong. I am not claiming sinless perfection. But I am absolutely claimng the power is there. It is possible!
Have I overcome all my weaknesses and sin? No, not yet. I'm a work in progress. But I am God's workmanship. To Him be the glory. I have no power of my own for without Him I can do nothing. But with Him all things are possible to them that believe!

Yet all you do is lay a stumbling block for others. For you its all about the sin, for Him its all about the forgiveness, you simply cant accept the fact that Christ died so you would no longer be condemned, as for God, He demands nothing of men, men do always laying traps and snares before Gods lambs destroying there faith before it even gets a chance to blossom, If you want the law, you have every right to it, but you have no right to lay that stumbling bloke before others.

In case you missed it

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Love tops everything....

brakelite · Dec 12, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Yet all you do is lay a stumbling block for others. For you its all about the sin,

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I am not "all about sin". I am all about righteousness...I am all about overcoming sin by the power and grace of the Almighty God who promises that we can do all things through Him who strengthens us.
It is you who are "all about sin " in your constant denial of the power of God and your rejection of His authority in your life. The whole story of redemption is about loyalty... Whether of sin into death... Or of obedience unto righteousness.
God will have a remnant in the last days who are loyal to Him and are willing to challenge the lies that God's law is impossible to obey.
Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Mjh29 · Dec 12, 2018

brakelite said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I am not "all about sin". I am all about righteousness...I am all about overcoming sin by the power and grace of the Almighty God who promises that we can do all things through Him who strengthens us.
It is you who are "all about sin " in your constant denial of the power of God and your rejection of His authority in your life. The whole story of redemption is about loyalty... Whether of sin into death... Or of obedience unto righteousness.
God will have a remnant in the last days who are loyal to Him and are willing to challenge the lies that God's law is impossible to obey.
Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

The Law of God is imoossible to keep, that's why we have Christ. The cerimonial law? Fulfilled in Christ, no loger in effect for Christians today. But the Laws, the 10 Commandments and others, cannot be kept. It is beyond human ability. Christ knew this. HOWEVER this does not excuse us from trying. We aee to strive to keep the Laws of God, not because they have anything to do with Salvation, but rather because Jesus lived his life according to these laws, and when our hearts are renewed, we want to be like Jesus.

Dave L · Dec 12, 2018

Mjh29 said:
The Law of God is imoossible to keep, that's why we have Christ. The cerimonial law? Fulfilled in Christ, no loger in effect for Christians today. But the Laws, the 10 Commandments and others, cannot be kept. It is beyond human ability. Christ knew this. HOWEVER this does not excuse us from trying. We aee to strive to keep the Laws of God, not because they have anything to do with Salvation, but rather because Jesus lived his life according to these laws, and when our hearts are renewed, we want to be like Jesus.

I believe Al Capone could keep the Ten Commandments if there was something in it for him. But he could not keep the two great commandments of perfect love for God and people (even enemies). The Ten Commandments hung from the two great commandments at a level wicked people could understand. And God forced them to act as though they loved him and people under threat of death. And through them God harnessed their greed promising reward for obedience.

Had Jesus merely kept the Ten Commandments he would not have; coveted the soldier's spears; or Herod's wife; He would not have stolen the high priest's jewels, or murdered the Pharisees......

But on the cross he kept the two great commandments. Loving God with all his body, soul and strength. Giving it in unbearable pain with his last drop of blood. In exchange for his enemies as they wrenched his life from him.

In the New Covenant we live by the Two Great Commandments. Just as Abraham and the faithful of all-time did. The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. And as Jeremiah said, The New Covenant replaced them. We use the Ten for commentary and instruction, but not legalistically. We fulfill them by following the Two Great Commandments.

If we need to be told not to steal or kill, we are not born again...

brakelite · Dec 12, 2018

QUOTE="Mjh29, post: 480716, member: 7465"]The Law of God is imoossible to keep, that's why we have Christ....it is beyond human ability.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more...that is why Christ came,...to save us from our sin. In our human nature, yes, absolutely beyond us...in our human nature we don't even care to obey God, because the carnal mind is enmity against Godl for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh, cannot please God.
BUT....BUT....BUT, ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Crist, he is none of His.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, BUT, (there's that word "BUT" again) the Spirit is life because of righteousness!!!
The rest of Romans 8 gives us great hope, that if we walk according to the Spirit, we can absolutely overcome sin in this life. But as you say, only by the grace and power of God...on our own we are useless. But for whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....did His Son keep His Father's commandments? Then so can we IF we have His Spirit abiding within. In fact, without His Spirit we do not even desire to obey, we cannot obey, and we don't want others to obey either because by their sanctified lives that are a living rebuke to our sin and weaknesses.

Nancy · Dec 12, 2018

brakelite said:
Master, we caught this woman in adultery. We want to stone her. What do you think.?
After a pause, and her accusers slink away, Jesus says to the woman, I forgive you. Go and sin no more. You will never succeed of course, you will commit adultery again, but no worries. Everyone is doing it right? Just try your hardest, after all, I know you aren't living in a fantasy world. Sin is everywhere. You have no hope of overcoming, even though I ask you to overcome, is just the way the world is. Not even with Gods own Spirit inside you giving you direct access to the throne of the almighty, even though you are a partaker of the divine nature...a sinner and adulterer you are you vile woman, and such you will always be. When I ask you to repent and turn away from sin, I know I'm asking the impossible. So just ignore me okay? You can humour me once in a while by refusing perhaps to sleep with a strange once a month or so, but let's not sweat the details. Live your abundant life, never mind me and my impossible demands and as for my commandments, well, at best they are merely suggestions. Just a rough guide to get you on your way. But once you are up and running, don't give them a second thought. See you in glory sinner.

Lol...you've a way with words

We will love the one and despise the other... It's about learning to hate sin just as God does, my own heart hurts when I KNOW I grieve His Spirit at times, there is true sorrow. Sin still lives in us, like a parasite, but no longer has the power to make us it's slave. We learn to HATE it and learn to love the way of God Almighty, Amen!
Weird to think that most of my life was lost to sin, pride and stubbornness and disbelief is what took me as long as it has to get where I am at now!
In Him!
-nancy

mjrhealth · Dec 13, 2018

brakelite said:
BUT....BUT....BUT, ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Crist, he is none of His.

But But But if you where walking in the Spirit than you would not be here so troubled by your sin... would you??? The law is what "you" want than sin is all you will get. Jesus did not die to help you help you keep the law, He died so you would no longer be condemned for your sins.

But since your religion, demands you keep the Sabbath, and to keep the Sabbath you than have to therefore keep the law, which was never eve,r ever, ever given to you, and to which the ISraelites / Jews are supposed to be "dead" to. you will therefore forever be condemned by it. You are supposed to be obedient to your ? betrothed" Christ your husband to be, not the " Law" who was the Husband of the Jews until they became "dead" to it through Christ. That is why mens religions are considered to be the "Harlot " church. how do think you would feel if you where getting married and your wife to be, was sleeping with another womans husband.

Which is why it also says

Mat_6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

and again

Luk_5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

mixing law and grace the old with teh new. its no wonder God has so few Sons.

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

Nancy said:
My Gospel is also Truth: that we are saved by grace through faith and that faith is evidenced by my fruit. We are obedient from the heart, "We love Him because He first loved us." : "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance." Romans 6:17
If obeying God seems a burden to anybody...it is NOT obedience from the heart, but more like "works of the flesh"

Bingo. We love Him, therefore we obey Him. Those who say they love Him but refuse to obey Him are either lying or self-decieved.

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

Dave L said:
God removed the Ten Commandments Jeremiah (31:31–33), but we use them for commentary and instruction. If you need to be told not to steal or murder, you might not be born again.

How is writing the Ten Commandments on our heart "removing" them? To the contrary, it means that they are now more a part of us than ever. Sure, no one has to be told about stealing or murder, but what about the seventh day Sabbath? Seems everyone is breaking that one and coming up with ever single lame excuse for doing so. The Sabbath is just as much obligatory now as it was when God made it in the garden of Eden.

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

mjrhealth said:
Jesus did not die to help you help you keep the law, He died so you would no longer be condemned for your sins.

Without you realizing it, you've just exposed why you and the rest of the antinomian world rejects the concept of obedience to God's law: all of your are holding back from a total surrender to Christ. How do I know?

You said, "Jesus did not die to HELP you keep the law..." This statement is an unconscious revelation that you believe that Christ merely an "assistant" and not the "boss" - that He is beside us and not above us.

Jesus doesn't "help" you keep the law - He comes into your heart and keeps the law for you. You open the door of your heart and He comes in and takes over your life and lives out His life through you. Why not make that surrender today?

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

Vexatious said:
Antinomianists do not reject the law, as proven in that they eagerly follow man's law. So, it's an issue of which law do they follow, to whom is their allegiance.

That never occurred to me. They will absolutely fall all over themselves to obey the commandments of the Beast when the time comes, lest they suffer the consequences for refusing to take the Mark. Good point.

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
All these many complicated words...when it is quite simple...Jesus distilled it down for us so that there could not be any complicated arguments.

If everything we did, everything we thought, everything we said etc
was measure against the depth of our love for God and our neighbour
We would fulfill all Gods will.

Matthew 22:37-
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

But no, we'd much rather complicate the real issue and pretend that this is not what is required of us.

The simple issue is "If ye love Me, keep My commandments" - the Ten Commandments. Unfortunately, there are many complicated (more like convoluted) reasons for why many say we as Christians are free to break the commandments that Jesus said those who love Him will keep.

Phoneman777 · Dec 14, 2018

Dave L said:
If you keep the Sabbath, don't heat your house or cook on Saturday when it's 20-

I've read the Fourth commandment many times and the only thing I see in there about how to keep it holy is that we are not to do any routine work - emergency ox-in-ditch extractions are allowed.

So, any person who has to be told to lay off from heading into the office, mowing the lawn, washing the car, etc., and just spend this one day a week drawing close to God in a manner which is prevented by the preoccupations of work on the other six days, is probably not in love with God.

mjrhealth · Dec 14, 2018

Phoneman777 said:
Without you realizing it, you've just exposed why you and the rest of the antinomian world rejects the concept of obedience to God's law: all of your are holding back from a total surrender to Christ. How do I know?

You said, "Jesus did not die to HELP you keep the law..." This statement is an unconscious revelation that you believe that Christ merely an "assistant" and not the "boss" - that He is beside us and not above us.

Jesus doesn't "help" you keep the law - He comes into your heart and keeps the law for you. You open the door of your heart and He comes in and takes over your life and lives out His life through you. Why not make that surrender today?

No you are just another SDA trying to push your SDA beliefs onto us just as the RC's do. Funny thing is for all you bashing the RC church, your religion is no better, just another daughter of the great whore, it is not Christ you are being obedient to, it is your religion, just like teh RC's.

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