Soul Sleep?

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Ac28

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Not Scriptural; this is the crux. "Absent from the body"; "present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5.8).
Paul didn't want to be in the naked state in the grave. He wanted the resurrection to occur before he died.
 

101G

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2Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

this is not a quick get out of the (body) card verse and go stright to heaven, "NOW". the scriptures are clear, read the preceding vers first,
2Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

STOP, and think. "FROM" heaven? not in heaven. from heaven meaning when the Lord Jesus return. people have used 2Cor 5:8 out of context to show we go stright to heaven when we die. only out spirit return to God who gave it. and on his return we all will be resurrected, or (thoses alive at his coming), CHANGED.

so 2Cor 5:8 cannot be used that way anymore.
 
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Enoch111

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only out spirit return to God who gave it. and on his return we all will be resurrected,
You continue to erroneously post about the *spirit* which returns to God, but in that context the word should be translated as *breath* [the same Hebrew word ruach (or in Greek pneuma) can mean either (1) wind, or (2) breath, or (3) spirit, DEPENDING ON CONTEXT].

So God gives the breath of life to living creatures, and then takes that breath away, and they die. This is simply a euphemism for physical death. Respiration stops, comes to an end.

However it has nothing to do with the departure of the souls AND spirits (not breath) of those who die in Christ. The Bible is perfectly clear that all who die in Christ go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Meaning their souls and spirits, since the bodies are placed in graves awaiting the Resurrection of the saints.

I simply cannot understand when people say they are Christians but have serious reservations about going to Heaven to be with Christ (who is in Heaven). Stephen's soul and spirit went to Heaven, and all the OT and NT saints are now in Heaven.
 

101G

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You continue to erroneously post about the *spirit* which returns to God, but in that context the word should be translated as *breath* [the same Hebrew word ruach (or in Greek pneuma) can mean either (1) wind, or (2) breath, or (3) spirit, DEPENDING ON CONTEXT].

So God gives the breath of life to living creatures, and then takes that breath away, and they die. This is simply a euphemism for physical death. Respiration stops, comes to an end.

However it has nothing to do with the departure of the souls AND spirits (not breath) of those who die in Christ. The Bible is perfectly clear that all who die in Christ go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Meaning their souls and spirits, since the bodies are placed in graves awaiting the Resurrection of the saints.

I simply cannot understand when people say they are Christians but have serious reservations about going to Heaven to be with Christ (who is in Heaven). Stephen's soul and spirit went to Heaven, and all the OT and NT saints are now in Heaven.
GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for the reply.

scecond, the BREATH of Life of God is the spirit in man, don't argue with me argue with God.

third, you said,
his is simply a euphemism for physical death. Respiration stops, comes to an end.
ok if that the case, please explain this scripture,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

now Enoch111, did Jeremiah Respiration stop, or was it going on all the time... which one. ... (smile). I caint wait for that answer.

Last you said,
The Bible is perfectly clear that all who die in Christ go to be with the Lord in Heaven
please give book chapter and verse.
 

n2thelight

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Secondly, the scripture uses the expression 'sleep' for the death we experience in the present time on earth. It uses this term because all who have experienced this death will at one point be resurrected, both good and evil. In that sense it is not final, subsequently it is referred to in scripture as a sleep.

Not at some point,the resurrection happens at death,the flesh will not be raised,it's over and done with
 

Enoch111

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Not at some point,the resurrection happens at death,the flesh will not be raised,it's over and done with
Not so. Resurrected bodies will consist of flesh and bones. Not ethereal spirits floating around.

LUKE 24
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,Have ye here any meat? [food]
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
 

Enoch111

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please give book chapter and verse.
Since you blithely ignore chapter and verse none will be given. The death of Stephen has been presented as proof positive that the souls and spirits of the saints go to Heaven immediately upon death.
 

quietthinker

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Since you blithely ignore chapter and verse none will be given. The death of Stephen has been presented as proof positive that the souls and spirits of the saints go to Heaven immediately upon death.
Don't see that at all Enoch. One has to distort the definitions of soul and spirit to see what you assert.
 
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n2thelight

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Not so. Resurrected bodies will consist of flesh and bones. Not ethereal spirits floating around.

LUKE 24
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,Have ye here any meat? [food]
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Why does everyone seem to think a spirit is just something that's floating around?
When angels have came down to earth,were they just floating around?

Luke 24:36 "And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be with you."

Now as they were all standing together discussing their sightings of Jesus with one another, Jesus appeared there right in their group, and said to them. "Peace be with you." Now every last one of them have seen Jesus and witnessed that Jesus is truly alive. Jesus never came through a door, but in His incorruptible spiritual body came right into the room with the door shut. Jesus appeared in the center of their group, He had been there all the time. This is teaching the lesson of the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.

Luke 24:37 "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit."

Think of it, after all the Peter told them, and the two that came from Emmaus, these followers were still frightened with Jesus came into their midst. People in their flesh bodies have such a hard time visualizing or understanding the Divine influence of our own Father, or the Son and His Spirit.

Luke 24:38 "And He said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?"

Jesus asked them, "Why are you troubled in your mind and thoughts?" They should be happy but instead there were shook up. It was written that Jesus body would not see corruption, decay, and this is proof, for Jesus is in His incorruptible body. You can trust what is written in His Word.

Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."

This is true, for the "spirit" is only the intellect of the soul, but soul has another body, an heavenly body that has form, and Jesus is calling attention to "My hands and My feet, touch Me and see for yourself". Jesus body has form and He is real, but in that other dimension.

Luke 24:40 "And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet."

We know from another Gospel that Thomas had to touch those nail print hands and the spear scar in His side before He would believe that Jesus was truly the Christ.

Luke 24:41 "And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto, "Have ye here any meat?"

Jesus is trying to make them believe and see that this is not just some spirit speaking to them, but another person in a body that has form. Sure that body can inter into that other dimension, but Jesus is showing them that He is risen from the dead. Sure they say Jesus being crucified on the cross, they witnessed Joseph taking Jesus off the cross, dressing him, and putting Jesus in that tomb. Yet here Jesus is standing before them and asking for food. Though eating is not for that incorruptible body, by eating Jesus will demonstrate that He truly is in body form.

When the Israelites came out of Egypt, they went through the wilderness for forty years, and during that forty years they ate manna, "angels" food. Jesus is showing them that the incorruptible body can eat people food, just as people can eat angel food.

Luke 24:42 "And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb."

The disciples brought Jesus fish [the sign of a Christian] and honeycomb, the food of a prophet to eat. Jesus is trying to prove that He is not a spook, something unknown in spirit form, and that is why you should not call Him a Ghost. Sure the translators have used "Holy Ghost", but in the Greek it is "Spirit".

Luke 24:43 "And He took it, and did eat before them."

Jesus ate the fish, the symbol of our following of Him; and the honeycomb, the prophets food. When Jesus at the food, their minds should be at rest now.

Luke 24:44 "And He said unto them, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me." "

Jesus is telling these disciples to remember those things that I told you, and to keep them secure until these prophecies are fulfilled. The example was Jesus, Moses and Elijah appearing together in transformed bodies on mount transfiguration. All three of them were bright and shining as they stood there, and Jesus told them to keep this to yourself until after the resurrection take place. Jesus is let them know before the fact that this is what would take place, and they could see exactly what the resurrected, incorruptible body was. However they are still having a lot of trouble accepting that fact. So Jesus is reminding them that even when Jesus was with them in the flesh, He told them that all things prophesied had to be fulfilled. There is nothing new about what is happening here, as Jesus discussed it many times with them.

Luke 24:45 "Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand Scriptures."

All things that are written in the Scriptures shall come to pass just as they are written by the Prophets. That applies to Christ's first coming, just as it applies to His second advent. When you start messing around with the Scriptures, and throwing out this passage and that, and saying this is not necessary because of the rapture, you are starting to skate on very thin ice. You are taking your own personal defenses away, and leaving yourself wide open for Satan's lies, and deceptions that we shall see shortly. The Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth, but you have to ask and seek the truth. The Holy Spirit will open your mind to knowing the understanding, the knowledge and wisdom of Almighty God written to you personally through His prophets. He expects you to take the time to read it, and be prepared for those thing that shall come to pass as they are written.

He will open your understanding to the Scriptures, for He will give you eyes to see and ears to hear, but you must ask Him for the truth. But if His Spirit has opened your mind to the truth, thank Him for that understanding.

Luke 24:46 "And said unto them, "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:"

Jesus is telling these followers that every thing that was written had to happen, just as Christ had to suffer and die on the cross, and rise from the dead on the third day.
 

101G

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Since you blithely ignore chapter and verse none will be given. The death of Stephen has been presented as proof positive that the souls and spirits of the saints go to Heaven immediately upon death.
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply,

Second, I didn't ignore our brother Stephen death.
Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


soul and spirit, it seems the spirit was to be recieve, again I suggest you study the soul, and the spirit and the emotioms they both hold.

here's a good read, A SPIRITUAL EMOTION

I'm not endorsing the contents of this article nor any others out there, and there are many, but this one is a a good "READ".

Hope it helps.
 

Enoch111

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Don't see that at all Enoch. One has to distort the definitions of soul and spirit to see what you assert.
So where do you see Stephen's soul and spirit going, after he SPECIFICALLY asks Christ to receive his spirit? The soul and spirit are so closely together that only the Word of God can pierce through to the spirit.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Acts 7:59)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

Unbelievable how people can deny the obvious in order to maintain their false notions.
 

quietthinker

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So where do you see Stephen's soul and spirit going, after he SPECIFICALLY asks Christ to receive his spirit? The soul and spirit are so closely together that only the Word of God can pierce through to the spirit.
I'm surprised you ask this question Enoch as the spirit/soul issue has been thrashed out here more times than I remember.
I will however reiterate. Firstly, soul/spirit are not entities in themselves. They have no consciousness or mind of their own. The account of the creation of man is clear....'God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life and man became a living soul' and if you don't know where to find it, here it is Genesis 2:7
What is it that is unclear about this???

We are souls, we do not have souls. Notice, man became a living soul, he did not receive one!!
The spirit also is not a consciousness in it self, it is merely the energy that animates the dust. It is the life force or the breath.

One switches an electrical light on by applying the power...it glows or is 'alive'. When one disconnects the power the light ceases to exist....it has gone nowhere, it simply ceases to be. It is inappropriate to ask where has the light gone as if the light were an independent element.

Stephans prayer is accepting the dissolution of these elements. The soul ceases to exist and the life force (spirit) goes back to God who gave it.
Stephan is in the grave with David and Abraham and all the righteous dead awaiting the resurrection at the last trump. This is indisputably clear from scripture.
 
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Hidden In Him

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@brakelite , @Heb 13:8 :

Found something interesting when discussing this with gadar perets on the duplicate thread:

If both Sheol and Hades ought to be translated out as "the grave," how then should the Greek word Hades be translated out in Luke 16? (the supposed "parable" of the rich man and Lazarus in Hades). Translated out as a reference to the Underworld, it reads, "And the rich man also died, and was buried. And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torment, he cried out..." But if it is always to be translated as "the grave," that gives the translation as, "And having lifted up his eyes in the grave, being in torment..." How does one lift up his eyes in the grave?

The interesting stuff I found, however, is this. When Jacob thought his son Joseph was dead, the Genesis account states:

34 And all his (Jacob's) sons and his daughters gathered themselves together, and came to comfort him; but he would not be comforted, saying, “I will go down unto Hades to my son mourning.” And his father wept for him. (Genesis 37:34-35 LXX)

The wording here suggests Jacob was expecting to be reunited with Joseph in Hades. Likewise, the Lord told Ezekiel to lament over the fate of the multitudes of Egypt, for when they went down to Hades, the giants of old (referred to in Genesis 6:1-4) would speak to them, and mock them for not being superior to anyone:

18 Son of man, lament over the strength of Egypt, for the nations shall bring down her daughters dead to the depth of the earth, to them that go down to the pit. 19/20 They shall fall with him in the midst of them that are slain with the sword, and all his strength shall perish: the giants also shall say to you, 21 “Art thou in the depth of the pit: to whom art thou superior?” Yea, go down, and lie with the uncircumcised, in the midst of them that are slain with the sword. 22 There are Assur and all his company:.. 24 There is Ælam and all his host round about his tomb… and the uncircumcised that go down to the deep of the earth, who caused their fear to be upon the land of the living: and they have received their punishment with them that go down to the pit… 27 And they are laid with the giants that fell of old, who went down to Hades with their weapons of war. (Ezekiel 32:18-27 LXX)

The Masoretic is even more clear, stating in verse 21: "The strong and the mighty shall speak to him (them) from the midst of Sheol."

Any comments?
 

101G

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Yes this is getting intresting.

because the way words are used in context can mean another thing.

example, when the Prophet David, said,
Psalms 63:9 "But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Psalms 63:10 "They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.

so something beside their bodies went to the "LOWER" Parts of the earth, because their bodies, dust, was for the foxes.

I'm going to be watching this tread.
 
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Enoch111

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Any comments?
Well it is all rather simple, but the naysayers like to confuse themselves and everyone else.

There are three Greek words (Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus) which have all unfortunately been translated as *hell* in the KJV, and one Hebrew word (Sheol, which is Hades in Greek) which should be been transliterated but was mistranslated as *the grave*, since the grave is only approx six feet under the soil. Sheol/Hades is located in *the heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* (which would make it close to the core of the earth, which is extremely hot).

BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
Sheol was the abode of ALL the departed souls and spirits, righteous and unrighteous. It had a separate *compartment* for the righteous, called *Abraham's bosom* by Christ, and a wide chasm or gulf which separated them from the unrighteous. Christ went to Hades for three days and three nights, not to suffer, or remain silent, but to proclaim (preach to the spirits in prison) His victory at the Cross.

AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
Jesus took all the righteous dead (souls and spirits) to the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and thus they are called *the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect* (Heb 12:23).

However, all the unrighteous dead still go to Hades, a place of torment, until the resurrection unto damnation, following which they are cast into Gehenna (Hell, the Lake of Fire). The Lake of Fire is located in *outer darkness*, which can only mean outside of space (which is finite).

Purgatory is a figment of the imagination, and is not even worth discussing.
 
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CoreIssue

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Yes this is getting intresting.

because the way words are used in context can mean another thing.

example, when the Prophet David, said,
Psalms 63:9 "But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Psalms 63:10 "They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.

so something beside their bodies went to the "LOWER" Parts of the earth, because their bodies, dust, was for the foxes.

I'm going to be watching this tread.
Well it is all rather simple, but the naysayers like to confuse themselves and everyone else.

There are three Greek words (Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus) which have all unfortunately been translated as *hell* in the KJV, and one Hebrew word (Sheol, which is Hades in Greek) which should be been transliterated but was mistranslated as *the grave*, since the grave is only approx six feet under the soil. Sheol/Hades is located in *the heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* (which would make it close to the core of the earth, which is extremely hot).

BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
Sheol was the abode of ALL the departed souls and spirits, righteous and unrighteous. It had a separate *compartment* for the righteous, called *Abraham's bosom* by Christ, and a wide chasm or gulf which separated them from the unrighteous. Christ went to Hades for three days and three nights, not to suffer, or remain silent, but to proclaim (preach to the spirits in prison) His victory at the Cross.

AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
Jesus took all the righteous dead (souls and spirits) to the New Jerusalem in Heaven, and thus they are called *the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect* (Heb 12:23).

However, all the unrighteous dead still go to Hades, a place of torment, until the resurrection unto damnation, following which they are cast into Gehenna (Hell, the Lake of Fire). The Lake of Fire is located in *outer darkness*, which can only mean outside of space (which is finite).

Purgatory is a figment of the imagination, and is not even worth discussing.

I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some.

Souls do not depart only spirits do. Souls are part of the body.

Abraham's bosom was also called paradise. There are three in the Bible.

There are no souls in heaven. They are not in the new Jerusalem. That is said nowhere in the Bible.

Simple fact is when the bridegroom Christ ascended to heaven he went to prepare a place, the new Jerusalem, for his bride, the church. But by the Jewish marriage custom they do not live in the place prepared until the father sends the son to fetch his pride. Then there is the wedding supper.

I agree purgatory is pagan.

Interesting idea on where the lake of fire is. I've always debated between that and within a new earth.
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes this is getting intresting.

because the way words are used in context can mean another thing.

example, when the Prophet David, said,
Psalms 63:9 "But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Psalms 63:10 "They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.

so something beside their bodies went to the "LOWER" Parts of the earth, because their bodies, dust, was for the foxes.

I'm going to be watching this tread.

Yes. The expression "lower parts of the earth" or "depths of the earth" was apparently understood as a reference to Sheol. I noticed I never got a response to the following question (underlined) even from Brakelite, who normally is not shy about replying. I didn't get an answer even when I asked again in a later post:
Regarding Ecclesiastes 9:5 in context, discussing verse 10 in particular:
In the Greek, we have this: ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. = "for there is no work, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades where you are going." Hades was at once both the Underworld, and at other times more specifically the punishment side of the Underworld, what we today call Hell.

The Hebrew uses the word שְׁאוֹל, literally Sheol, which was a blanket term they used indiscriminately to refer to both sides of the Underworld (Paradise and Hades combined, and the "gulf" fixed between them, which the rich man could not cross over to get to Abraham and Lazarus. Incidentally it uses the word Hades there as well). Thus, if you regard both the LXX and Masoretic to be authoritative translations of the Old Testament, then the reference has to be to the Underworld.
 
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Hidden In Him

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There are three Greek words (Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus) which have all unfortunately been translated as *hell* in the KJV, and one Hebrew word (Sheol, which is Hades in Greek) which should be been transliterated but was mistranslated as *the grave*, since the grave is only approx six feet under the soil. Sheol/Hades is located in *the heart of the earth* or *the lower parts of the earth* (which would make it close to the core of the earth, which is extremely hot).

I agree. Interpreting the expression "the lower parts of the earth" as simply "the grave" seems to be cheapening the text.
 

101G

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@Hidden In Him, I would like you to look at these verses, and study them real good. tell me what you think. but take your time ok.
Ecclesiastes 3:16 "And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 "I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 3:22 "Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Pay close attention to my color code. and one other thing, see the words "the sons of men" in verse 18, and 19, and especially the term "the spirit of man". in the KJV these words can be translated as, H1121 בֵּן ben (bane) n-m.
בָּנִים baniym (ba-neem') [plural]
בְּנִי bniy (ben-ee') [possessive singular]
בָּנַי banay (baw-nah'ee) [possessive plural]
(used widely) a son (as a builder of the family name).
{in the widest sense of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like H1 H251, etc.).}
[from H1129]

this is the same word used of the Sons of God in Genesis 6:2 and Genesis 6:4, which apply to the "MEN" of the East in Job 1:3.

but go over these verses, cross reference, and look up the definition for yourself.

for if I'm right as I believe I am, then this will answer two question on teo big fronts and a few more also.

so again take your time and study what I have posted and post back on your understanding.

thanks in advance.