Christians And Self-Defence ?

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Christina

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Are Christians supposed to defend themselves? And if the individual is allowed self-defense would not, then, a government be allowed the same right? although, the justification is often more difficult to establish.
 

HammerStone

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Good question.We're all familiar with the following verse from the instruction of Yeshua.Matthew 5:39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.I'd just like to point out two things about this verse. You only have one cheek and it references only you and not when someone does something evil to someone else.
 

BernieEOD

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I have stood down a couple of gang bangers with my .45 ready in case it was needed. (It wasn't). We had one irate boyfriend of my sisters daughter break into thier house while they were on vacation. Knowing who it was, they called the police and some of the stolen items were recovered and they were arrested. The irate boyfriend made death threats. I camped in front of their house with my weapons at the ready. The Irate boyfriend complained to our Church claiming that I violated the teachings of Jesus by guarding my family. Some members of the Church actually rebuked me and demanded that I ask for his forgivness. My response was that if he wanted to make good on his death threats, I would be glad to send him to Jesus to plead his case.I have heard of pacifists rebuking people for defending themselves and thier loved ones but never the actual perpetrator claiming "Jesus says to turn the other cheek so let be rape and kill you!"The safety of my family is non negotiable and nobody is going to convince me that Christ calls upon us to allow our families to be raped and killed.
 

~Ty~

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("kriss")
Are Christians supposed to defend themselves?
Did Jesus defend Himself?
 

ROS777

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Yes, Christians can defend themselves.It say in the commandments to : do no murder; which if you look up in the hebrew mean " crimminal homicide" lying in wait.In the garden, Peter cut off the ear of the servant, so he carried a sword for self defense. He needed quite a bit of expertise to cut the ear off without damaging the head, so I believe he was well able to defend himself and others.Also when asked if they needed another sword, Jesus said one was enough.The reason why they did not defend themselves or Jesus at that point was that prophesy that had been written about in the psalms and other places in the Old Testament had to come to pass.
 

~Ty~

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If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev. 13:9-10.Is your Christianity subject to the Bible, or is the Bible subject to your Christianity?
 

HammerStone

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~Ty~ those are common Hebraic idioms for destiny - this can be easily seen if you read the verse in context of Revelation 13. Why would a chapter full of prophecy suddenly digress into a commandment? If you don't believe me, reference Jeremiah 15:2 and Jeremiah 43:11 amongst others. When you come across the statement such as "If any man have an ear, let him hear." you can bet the bank that it's much more than is shown on the surface. It refers to a spiritual hearing and understanding. You asked for examples when Jesus practiced self defense. ROS gave you the example of Peter in the Garden at Gethsmane. Here's another: Luke 4:28-30And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way, Jesus didn't have to fight for obvious reasons. However, Jesus didn't turn the cheek this time around and he made it clear when he was taken in Gethsmane and at the trial that those who wanted to punish him were being allowed to do this. Jesus was anything but a coward; when you lay down and let someone hurt you or your family, that's being a coward.
 

David

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You should really read this:Is it ever right to sin?It might help to make this whole subject clear. It talks about lying to protect people’s lives. There are only three options here and sadly the one we should try for is so hard to do...But, even when we fall short of the actions we should take, when we decide God can’t handle the situation and we need to take matter into our own hands, he can still use our actions to benefit those who love Him. Shooting BackI hope this helps :bible:
 

ROS777

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What if a person was breaking into your house, had a weapon in his hand. Would you defend yourself and your family?What if you saw a crime taking place? Would you pass by and be grateful it wasn't you or would you try to help out even if it meant taking deadly force against the attacker?Which do you think Christ would do in each case?
 

David

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(ROS777;4790)
What if a person was breaking into your house, had a weapon in his hand. Would you defend yourself and your family?
Like pointed to above, It would be wrong to assault someone. SIN IS SIN And any time you can think of an excuse to do sin, you-know-who is lying to you. Satan is trying to destroy you along with everyone else. You can know for a fact that he will never say ANYTHING good to you. He is not the father of lies for no reason...But IF there was an event like that I have to say that, I don't have enough faith to live like that yet, I would give into fear and anger and I would assault that person and probably kill them or be killed. But death and violence is still sin and detestable in God's eyes no mater WHAT excuse Satan gives us to justify it.Also, this is just my own opinion, but think about this: I am saved therefore I if die and go to Heaven.The aren't therefore if they die and go to Hell.If I killed them I would be responsible for ending their life and sending them to hell.(ROS777;4790)
What if you saw a crime-taking place? Would you pass by and be grateful it wasn't you or would you try to help out even if it meant taking deadly force against the attacker?
Well, what if you tried what God tells us to do - Pray. Or what if you had been fulfilling your calling and instead of watching TV had been out there witnessing. OR what if this "what if" never happened? etc...(ROS777;4790)
Which do you think Christ would do in each case?
Just what he did do, along with Paul, John, and the rest of them. Trust me, they didn't live in a nice part of the world back then. But for some reason I don't remember them ever killing anyone. I don't remember him assaulting villains that we hurting others. I remember Jesus 24/7 doing God's will and dieing for the same people you want to kill.You should really read the above article, and I understand where you are coming from. I used to think that was the right thing to do as well, and I like I said I still probably would act on that. But I want to make it clear that that is our sin nature’s response it is not good, it is not right, and it will never be... God Bless,
 

ROS777

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QUOTE=David;4799]Like pointed to above, It would be wrong to assault someone.
Self defense is not a sin, if it was, evil would take over the world. Let me clarify: If we just let evil men ( bullies ) take over, evil would be overwhelming and there would be no quality of life or freedom.What about when God told the Israelites to destroy cities in the promised land?Christians are not second class citizens. When it says to turn the other cheek it is not talking about letting people walk all over you as a door mat.
Well, what if you tried what God tells us to do - Pray. Or what if you had been fulfilling your calling and instead of watching TV had been out there witnessing. OR what if this "what if" never happened? etc...
Pray while someone is being murdered or raped? God might answer the prayer but God usually expects us to do all we can first before he steps in.
Just what he did do, along with Paul, John, and the rest of them. Trust me, they didn't live in a nice part of the world back then. But for some reason I don't remember them ever killing anyone. I don't remember him assaulting villains that we hurting others. I remember Jesus 24/7 doing God's will and dieing for the same people you want to kill.
The areas that have limited or no gun control are the areas that have the least amount of violent crime.
You should really read the above article, and I understand where you are coming from. I used to think that was the right thing to do as well, and I like I said I still probably would act on that. But I want to make it clear that that is our sin nature’s response it is not good, it is not right, and it will never be...
Please tell me where in the Bible it says to resist not evil and not protect your love ones.Read the rules of the old testament. Self defense was allowed as well as fighting in wars as soldiers. I think too many people these days have it too easy compared to our parents and grandparents. They would never dream of letting Hitler take over the world and just pray.They would pray but they would get into the action and defeat the enemy.God Bless,[/QUOTE]
 

David

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(ROS777;4801)
Self defense is not a sin, if it was, evil would take over the world. Let me clarify: If we just let evil men ( bullies ) take over, evil would be overwhelming and there would be no quality of life or freedom.
Self defense is not something that glorifies God either. Actually, bullies have taken over the world. They have overwhelmed the poor and innocent in almost every country in existence. Even back then, the Romans did terrible things to the people. But God did not encourage them to start a war against them.Something we Americans don't understand is that this is the world we're talking about - It is Satan's playground. It isn't and won't ever be (until God returns) a wonderful place.
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. - Hebrews 11:32-40
(ROS777;4801)
What about when God told the Israelites to destroy cities in the promised land?
First off, God told them specifically to kill them. God does not tell anyone to kill anymore. That was the old covenant. He made a new covenant with us and we are to follow it. In fact, He says to love your enemies. Personally, I don't remember the Israelites as ideal Christians. God had them do a lot because of there stubbornness and lack of faith. He also knew that as messed-up as the Israelites were, the last thing they needed were a bunch of sick cities around them. Now that is not the only reason God told them to destroy them, but this is something not quite related to what we are talking about and I don't think we want to get into it.The bottom line is that God says not to do it. Do we trust His judgement, or not?(ROS777;4801)
Christians are not second class citizens. When it says to turn the other cheek it is not talking about letting people walk all over you as a door mat.
Why not? Jesus did.
"Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those who use the sword will die by the sword. Don’t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands[a] of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?"
He didn't even defend himself when he went to trial. Now of course I am not saying we should go looking for people to abuse us. Personally, I would get out of any place where you were in danger or being abused. However, the point is not to attack them the way they attack you. What are the 1st & 2nd commandments? :study: (ROS777;4801)
Pray while someone is being murdered or raped? God might answer the prayer but God usually expects us to do all we can first before he steps in.
When did God ever tell us that He expects us to act first and take care of things and then call Him? He teaches us in His Word to "cry out" to Him in times of need.Anyway, I don't know about you but if this were happening I would call the cops (and obey the rule of the Government setup by God over me.) and then ask God to take control of the situation and help me while I did everything I could to help or subdue the person. But I wouldn't Kill them or try to harm them.(ROS777;4801)
The areas that have limited or no gun control are the areas that have the least amount of violent crime.
Ya, if I were a bad guy I would personally rob some liberal anti-gun community too.
tongue.gif
But killing someone because they hit you and stole your purse is going against what God tells us to do.(ROS777;4801)
Please tell me where in the Bible it says to resist not evil and not protect your love ones.
I didn't say you couldn't resist evil and protect your loved ones, because you defiantly should. But I did say that it was wrong to listen to Satan when he tells you that the only way to do that is to kill/harm someone - to strike back.(ROS777;4801)
Read the rules of the old testament. Self defense was allowed as well as fighting in wars as soldiers. I think too many people these days have it too easy compared to our parents and grandparents. They would never dream of letting Hitler take over the world and just pray.They would pray but they would get into the action and defeat the enemy.
First off, that is the old covenant.Also, War is a different matter - This post is about people falling in the number one commandment - Love your neighbor as yourself and Do good to those who harm you. If you think your life is more important than another’s you are not believing this. Personally, I fully support our troops and I thank God that we had the American revolution.I think you should also think about this:
As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him." The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God." When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” - John 19:6-11
Jesus did not buy the lie that fear whispers in our ear - He knew that God was in control. like I said it takes an amazing type of faith to live this out - the kind the men of the Bible had. :bible:
 

Christina

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This subject can be turned to make or break almost any argument for or against it work by changing a few facts in an example Although most of you have quoted God's words in your posts how they are interpreted seems to be each persons own opinions probabley influenced some by each persons own life experiences.However I agree most with Ros's post of all the examples.As far as killing not being right God's word says Murder is a sin the Hebrew is very clear here Murder is to lie in wait (plan) to kill another Protecting your family from an intruder is not murder(lie in wait /plan). If someone is going to Murder you and you kill him in self defence are you not preventing him from committing the act of murder?Could this not be God's will ?that a mentally ill person not commit the sin of murder? So God allowed him to be killed in self defence so both you and the disturbed individual would not be guilty? Are we to kill anyone that attacks or wrongs us of course not God expects you to Use COMMON sense. If you see a rape or assault and just let it happen as you pray that's just plain stupid. How do you know the victim wasn't praying for help and God sent you to be the help? you pray it turns out as God wills ask him to protect you and do what you can to stop it.Turn the other cheek yes do not let words, insults, others action, or lies lead you into sin do not go after revenge it is the Lords pray that God's will be done and trust it. But God also expects you to be a " can do "person that commands respect by your actions toward others. To lead by example who would respect a person that let his family be harmed or a rapists commit his horrible crimes.
 

ROS777

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I agree with you Kriss.I don't think anyone can really talk a pacifist out of his/her beliefs.That movie " End Of the Spear " comes to mind. Those guys, well intentioned that they were, forgot to bring a weapon for self defense. And they were slaughtered.God says that his people perish for lack of knowledge; many don't know how to rightly divide the word, following the subject and object of what is being said in God's word.Obviously people use common sense and one doesn't shoot someone in the back as they're running away because they stole a purse.And I agree that God sent **YOU** if you see a crime happening. If you can't stop with deadly force, call 911.Unfortunately, the police might come too late, though.In Florida if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot that sucker dead.And people have.
 

David

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That movie " End Of the Spear " comes to mind. Those guys, well intentioned that they were, forgot to bring a weapon for self defense. And they were slaughtered.
No, you are dead wrong. They were packing - I guess you didn't watch it. They did not shot the natives because they loved them enough to die instead of them. They knew where they would go when they died - Heaven. They also knew where the natives would go... and they decided that it was better to let them live for the hope that the would come to know Christ, and to the Glory of God they did.I don't think you guys read all I posted.I try not to do anything that contradicts the Word of God - as I pointed out in the 3 or so posts above. So along that line - I have never read where Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any other person since the new covenant had a reason to, or desire to, kill or even harm someone. So why should I?But for some reason you think that you can make an excuse as to why it is ok to kill someone. Who do you think gives us these thoughts? It isn't God...
In Florida if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot that sucker dead.
You can here as well, as a matter of fact we got lots of fire arms. But that doesn't mean shooting someone is right and acceptable before Christ.There are HUNDREDS of ways to defend/help/protect people without the need to kill/seek-to-harm them.And that is what it comes down too - you aren't loving your enemy with a .45 :bible:
 

ROS777

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(David;4858)
No, you are dead wrong. They were packing - I guess you didn't watch it. They did not shot the natives because they loved them enough to die instead of them. They knew where they would go when they died - Heaven. They also knew where the natives would go... and they decided that it was better to let them live for the hope that the would come to know Christ, and to the Glory of God they did.
I saw the movie, I didn't see any weapons for self defense.They didn't have to kill anyone unless someone attacked them with deadly force. Sometimes, just having the weapons and the opposition knows it is enough of a deterent to keep the evil away. They think twice about attacking well armed people.Sure the natives lived but they spent all their days in remorse and regret and when they die, they'll have to stand before God and have another trial for murdering innocent people. One never gets off the hook for taking an innocent life --they stand before God and have a real trial in heaven.
I try not to do anything that contradicts the Word of God - as I pointed out in the 3 or so posts above. So along that line - I have never read where Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any other person since the new covenant had a reason to, or desire to, kill or even harm someone. So why should I?
As I said in one of my posts, on the night the Lord died, which was his choice, so he could taste death for us all and rescue us from death, Peter was there with a sword and cut off the servant's ear. Some have said that sword was only for fishing, no, it was also for self defense. The roads they traveled were dangerous. Jesus didn't kill anyone because when the crowd went against his words God the Father was able to get him out of a dangerous situation.The apostles asked Jesus if he would rain down fire on one town that did not accept the Lord's teachings--so don't tell me they didn't think about deadly force to punish the wicked.
But for some reason you think that you can make an excuse as to why it is ok to kill someone.
If less force than deadly force can be used sucessfully, then that's what should be used. Self defense is not a sin.
Who do you think gives us these thoughts? It isn't God...
God is more intelligent then you give him credit for, he also is more orderly and follows through on his word and has more common sense then anyone else in creation
And that is what it comes down too - you aren't loving your enemy with a .45 :bible:
Loving your enemy sometimes means tough love.
 

Broken Crusader

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David,If that's what you would do then I think your analogy of hiding people in your basement does not support your argument.Knowing you could not lie to spare their lives, you would then have to be honest with whomever came to your door, tell them what you would do if someone comes looking for them. They then would have the choice of hiding in your basement or someone else's.Otherwise, I offer this, to give them the false sense of hope and safety is as much a lie.Just food for thought.
 

Christina

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or desire to, kill or even harm someone. So why should I?But for some reason you think that you can make an excuse as to why it is ok to kill someone.
Desire to kill ?or excuses to kill ?you are address something that is of your own creation SELF DEFENCE is the subject
Who do you think gives us these thoughts? It isn't God..
. What thought? to defend yourself in danger God's gives us the INSTINCT to protect those we love and to care for our temple ,the body. DavidIt is you that are misunderstanding here the thread is entitled Self Defence not who can think of a reason to justify killing somebody. SELF DEFENCE -The act of defending ones person and or others Are you held accountable for killing someone according to the God's law in defending yourself?That's the question. Answer NO!! the word often translated in the commandments as kill,killing,should be translated Murder described as lying in wait intentionally planning to kill someone. To plan out the taking of the life of one of Gods children. Defending yourself or family or country from a single intruder or an Army is not murder Another words you are not intentionally setting out to defy God's Word.that is the answer God has given us.now you can come up with a million scenario's to argue but the simple truth is above answer.
 

~Ty~

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Using a professiong of Christianity as moral justification for self defense will do nothing but fill your churches with unconverted gangsters, and make the CEO of Smith and Wesson dance a jig.The only reason people have to defend themselves is because they don't have a God that can defend them.
 

Christina

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Someone comes in my house to rape and/or kill my daughters I thank God for giving me the common sense to send him straight to God