Response to 20 questions for futurists (part 1)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,533
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Everyone, This is my first post in a long time. I recently came across this challenge and decided to take it on. Here are the questions and my replies that may help others in their discussions with preterists.

HERE’S TWENTY QUESTIONS FOR FUTURISTS WRITTEN by Charles Meek (who is a preterist):

1. Why have Christians made failed predictions about the end of the world for 2000 years?
Christians are human and I would like to believe that they so look forward to Christ’s return they create scenario’s and try to fit God’s timing within them. While some have made, imo, a false doctrine out of imminence each generation should have had the expectation and possibility that their’s was the generation in which He would return. One generation will actually have that occur.

2. If time means nothing to God, why does God constantly use time-restricted statements about the fulfillment of prophecy—such as: must shortly take place, at hand, near, quickly, soon, last times, last hour, last days, this generation, etc.?
He uses time for our benefit, not His. It is beyond our scope to be able to conceive of eternity as He knows it. With that said, there are two time frames to be aware of. The earthly one and the heavenly one. More about this in question 4.

3. If “no one knows the day or the hour,” why did Jesus frequently insist that his PAROUSIA (Second Coming)—and indeed the fulfillment of all prophecy—would be fulfilled while those living in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27-28; Mathew 26:64; Luke 21:22, 28, 32; Revelation 1:1-3; Revelation 22:6, 12, 20)? Was Jesus simply wrong? If so, can we trust Him on other things He said?
The problem with this is that you are seeing them as a single event. They are not. In these passages there are three different comings to recognize. Matt. 23:10 was fulfilled in Matt; 21:2-5 which was a fulfillment of Zech. 9:9. Matt. 16:27 is a prophecy of His Second Coming as depicted in Matt. 24:30-31, vs.28 is referring to the spiritual kingdom that started at His resurrection and began fully at Pentecost. Matt. 26:64 - Here Christ is referencing Dan. 7:13 and is basically telling him that the roles will one day be reversed. Nothing here implies the high priest would be alive. Luke 21: 22, 28, 32 - I will say that this is foretelling of His second coming which hasn’t happened yet. Vs. 28, in context, is speaking of the events in vss. 25-27. Vs. 32 - let’s go back to Matt. 24:34, Christ is not speaking of “this” as being the generation alive at that time. In this passage, when He says “This generation” He is speaking of the generation that sees ALL these prophecies fulfilled, not some of them, not the majority of them, when you see 100% of them!

4. If the teaching that one day is a 1000 yrs, and a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord. . . DOES THAT MEAN?—1000 years in Revelation are a single 24 hour day (2 Peter 3; Revelation 20)?
Really, this answers some of your other questions. To an eternal God who has and will be around trillions of years and more, 2000 years + is really soon, at hand, nigh and any other adjective you want to use. When you’re contemplating prophecies with eternal significance you need to stop seeing it with man’s eye and try to see it from God’s perspective.

5. If any of the New Testament was written after AD 70, why is there no mention anywhere in the New Testament IN THE PAST TENSE about the incredible events surrounding the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in that year?
This is an easy one. The bible is written for Christians or those who will become christians, 70 AD just doesn’t have the prophetic significance you want it to have. It wasn’t the first time Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed nor will it be the last. This destruction of the temple only affected non-believing Jews and helped to spread the gospel to a greater area.

6. If the Great Tribulation is still future to us, why did Jesus tell the first century Christians that they could avoid it by fleeing to the mountains (Matthew 24:16; 21)? And why did the Apostle John tell his readers a few years later that THEY were in the tribulation (Revelation 1:9)?
Again, you’re assuming Christ is speaking to that generation, He is not, He is prophesying to the generation that will see all these things occur. The time-line in these passages don’t line up with what preterists want to believe. The first sign that it is time to flee is the Abomination of Desolation in vs. 15. Historically, what preterists consider this fulfillment to be is years after the siege of Jerusalem started. Jerusalem was indeed surrounded and it would have been impossible for Jews to flee anywhere. If it was there wouldn’t be the death count that high. There is a great difference between daily tribulation and the great tribulation. John was most certainly not speaking of the great trib but the personal tribulations of varying degrees that all christians encounter when dealing with the unbelieving world.

7. If the book of Revelation is for us today, why would John write to the seven churches if it had nothing to do with them? Why would John torture these first-century Christians with impossible and intricate symbolic labyrinths that applied only to people 2,000 years later? Why does Revelation say some 30 times that the events MUST be fulfilled SOON? (Examples: Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6, 12, 20)
As answered before, God’s concept of time must be taken into account. One of the things I find interesting in the preterist view is they get all concerned about “latter day” prophecies extending for a couple thousand years or more, but depending on one’s view of creation the “former” days extended for a minimum of 4000 + yrs. 2000+ is only half the time. I believe God had them sent to seven churches to assure His word would persevere and be handed down through the centuries and also to insure greater circulation amongst the church in general . I think the seven churches knew that many of the prophecies didn’t apply to them because of Rev. 1:19 things in the past, present and future. The present was cps. 1-3, the past is cps. 4-5 and the first part of cp. 12. The future (hereafter) is the rest from cps. 6-22.

8. Why does Hebrews 10:37 say that in a VERY VERY (“very” is there twice in the Greek) LITTLE WHILE Jesus would return and not delay? Were the writer of Hebrews and the other biblical writers that expressed the same thing FALSE PROPHETS?
He is reiterating Hab. 2:3-4. According to my sources, the est. date of this book is 607 bc., nearly 400 years before His first coming. I’m assuming the Jews to whom the author was speaking knew of this time and understood by that, that it probably wouldn’t happen in their lifetime.

9. If the biblical “last days” are in the 21st century, why does Peter and the writer of Hebrews both say the last days were in their time (Acts 2:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-2)?
There is no time frame given for the length of time of the latter days. It seems reasonable to me that if the former days were 4000 yrs. +, then it should come as no surprisem that the latter days consists of thousands of years as well. We are told, however, of what the final seven years will consist of.

10. If the biblical “last days” started in the first century, but continue to this day, why did Peter say the end of all things was at hand, and the judgment was about to begin when he was writing (1 Peter 4:7, 17)? Given Jesus’ condemnation of the Jews of his day, which He said would be in their generation (Matthew 23:29-39), isn’t it logical that this is the Great Judgment of which the New Testament speaks?
I’m assuming that you’re speaking of the GWTJ of Rev. 20. My eschatology is pre-wrath and as such we believe the Great Trib is the earthly trial of 70th week christians, not a judgement per se. The language of vs. 7 is the same as earlier. Another way to look at it is the various authors are speaking forward in faith as Heb. 11: 1,3 shows us.
As a Jesuit Futurist, why are you bothering to debate a Jesuit Preterist, seeing that both Futurism and Preterism both came from the papacy as a response to what the Great Reformers of the Protestant Reformation were preaching?

Back in the 16th century, the Protestants had for decades exposed the papacy as the Antichrist of prophecy until Jesuit Luis Alcazar first came up with the idea that Antichrist already showed up in the first century, followed by Jesuit Francisco Ribera who said Antichrist is coming at the end of time during the last 7 years of tribulation, where he will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and broker a 7 year peace treaty between the Jews and Arabs, but then break it halfway into it which will result in Armageddon. Neither Jesuit found their ideas in the Bible - they simply searched the Bible for "evidence" to prop up their preconceived ideas.

Futurists and Preterists alike should just pack up and move into the camp of the papacy, seeing that both these unBiblical ideas find their origin in the Roman dunghill of decretals.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
3. If “no one knows the day or the hour,” why did Jesus frequently insist that his PAROUSIA (Second Coming)—and indeed the fulfillment of all prophecy—would be fulfilled while those living in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27-28; Mathew 26:64; Luke 21:22, 28, 32; Revelation 1:1-3; Revelation 22:6, 12, 20)? Was Jesus simply wrong? If so, can we trust Him on other things He said?
The problem with this is that you are seeing them as a single event. They are not. In these passages there are three different comings to recognize. Matt. 23:10 was fulfilled in Matt; 21:2-5 which was a fulfillment of Zech. 9:9. Matt. 16:27 is a prophecy of His Second Coming as depicted in Matt. 24:30-31, vs.28 is referring to the spiritual kingdom that started at His resurrection and began fully at Pentecost. Matt. 26:64 - Here Christ is referencing Dan. 7:13 and is basically telling him that the roles will one day be reversed. Nothing here implies the high priest would be alive. Luke 21: 22, 28, 32 - I will say that this is foretelling of His second coming which hasn’t happened yet. Vs. 28, in context, is speaking of the events in vss. 25-27. Vs. 32 - let’s go back to Matt. 24:34, Christ is not speaking of “this” as being the generation alive at that time. In this passage, when He says “This generation” He is speaking of the generation that sees ALL these prophecies fulfilled, not some of them, not the majority of them, when you see 100% of them!
This is soooo wrong. Anyone who says that Jesus went "to the Father" and also says He is now with them...cannot say He has not already returned, without saying He never ascended or left.

Likewise, the same people will insist that Christ will return again in the flesh...as though He had not already done so - which was referred to as "lowering" Himself. Which is to say, that instead of coming in the spiritual glory of the Father, He will again become the flesh He has already given up in sacrifice - making void His sacrifice!

No, the problem here is a lack of understanding and an attempt to view events on the eternal non-timeline of God on the timeline of the created world...as if God wrote a book and then jumped inside of it and limited Himself to the terms therein. But that is just the world talking.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
4. If the teaching that one day is a 1000 yrs, and a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord. . . DOES THAT MEAN?—1000 years in Revelation are a single 24 hour day (2 Peter 3; Revelation 20)?
Really, this answers some of your other questions. To an eternal God who has and will be around trillions of years and more, 2000 years + is really soon, at hand, nigh and any other adjective you want to use. When you’re contemplating prophecies with eternal significance you need to stop seeing it with man’s eye and try to see it from God’s perspective.
If you are going to look at things from God's perspective, you need to factor in that He has "no shadow of turning"...and therefore "years", whether thousands or trillions, simply do not apply, but are in fact the "man's eye" perspective.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
in the name of the Lord Jesus thanks for your reply, and the addition of definition #2. are you straight on what was posted concering the "CONTEXT" of 1 Timothy 2:11 &12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34 & 35 with definition #2?

1 Cor. vss align with vs. 11 but vs. 12 is a different topic. Regarding that verse, God created a hierarchy for a purpose so I am in agreement that a woman should not pastor if their is a qualified man in the congregation.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus told us that the correct generation was "this generation" (the one living at the time). Paul then confirmed it saying he "was" crucified and "was" raised up with Christ.

Water Baptism symbolizes our being raised up in Christ to be a new man but I still maintain that Christ is in effect saying, The generation that sees all these things...this is the generation that shall not pass until all is fulfilled.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you are going to look at things from God's perspective, you need to factor in that He has "no shadow of turning"...and therefore "years", whether thousands or trillions, simply do not apply, but are in fact the "man's eye" perspective.

God created time for man's sake...we should be able to discern which view should be used within the context of the scripture.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is soooo wrong. Anyone who says that Jesus went "to the Father" and also says He is now with them...cannot say He has not already returned, without saying He never ascended or left.

Likewise, the same people will insist that Christ will return again in the flesh...as though He had not already done so - which was referred to as "lowering" Himself. Which is to say, that instead of coming in the spiritual glory of the Father, He will again become the flesh He has already given up in sacrifice - making void His sacrifice!

No, the problem here is a lack of understanding and an attempt to view events on the eternal non-timeline of God on the timeline of the created world...as if God wrote a book and then jumped inside of it and limited Himself to the terms therein. But that is just the world talking.

Could you clarify your first paragraph? I do agree however that Jesus shall never be in the "flesh" again that can die but He will always be in His resurrected style body.
 

Ac28

Active Member
May 18, 2016
425
119
43
Arkansas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Preterism is the most heretical of all interpretation methods. Like I posted, everyone of those 20 questions have the exact same answer - Israel was set aside in 64AD and has not been God's people for 1956 years. In God's eyes, all Jews today are Gentiles. Absolutely no OT prophecy has been fulfilled for nearly 2000 years.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Water Baptism symbolizes our being raised up in Christ to be a new man but I still maintain that Christ is in effect saying, The generation that sees all these things...this is the generation that shall not pass until all is fulfilled.
That is the point...Jesus announced it, and Paul confirmed seeing it. Which I also confirm seeing.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God created time for man's sake...we should be able to discern which view should be used within the context of the scripture.
The point and context are what is written, which we have been told all actually occurred "before the foundation of the world." Which makes the events of time, revelations given to each generation.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Could you clarify your first paragraph? I do agree however that Jesus shall never be in the "flesh" again that can die but He will always be in His resurrected style body.
Below:
This is soooo wrong. Anyone who says that Jesus went "to the Father" and also says He is now with them...cannot say He has not already returned, without saying He never ascended or left.
It is simple observation or math:
  • Did He ascend (leave)? Yes.
  • Did He come to you after that (return)? If so, then it is wrong to say that He has not already returned and that you still expect Him to.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
5. If any of the New Testament was written after AD 70, why is there no mention anywhere in the New Testament IN THE PAST TENSE about the incredible events surrounding the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in that year?
This is an easy one. The bible is written for Christians or those who will become christians, 70 AD just doesn’t have the prophetic significance you want it to have. It wasn’t the first time Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed nor will it be the last. This destruction of the temple only affected non-believing Jews and helped to spread the gospel to a greater area.
There are two issues here:

1) The question refers to the inaccuracy or possible unbelief of the New Testament writers, or their unwillingness to speculate. In other words, they simply and faithfully stated the things of the Spirit and allowed the Spirit to also translate. This is good, and allows each generation to have an equal consideration, that each might come, "each in his own order", as it is written.

2) The question assumes that because the language of the New Testament is not in past tense, that the events were future...which doesn't make sense coming from a Preterist. Therefore, it makes more sense that the question was either given to cause the reader to think deeper, or rather that it was projection on the part of whoever copied the questions from the Preterist.

Either way is wrong. We [should] know that the ultimate Temple of prophecy is not made with stone, but is Christ...which was destroyed at the cross and raised up the third day. Any other timetable is against [anti-] Christ.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
6. If the Great Tribulation is still future to us, why did Jesus tell the first century Christians that they could avoid it by fleeing to the mountains (Matthew 24:16; 21)? And why did the Apostle John tell his readers a few years later that THEY were in the tribulation (Revelation 1:9)?
Again, you’re assuming Christ is speaking to that generation, He is not, He is prophesying to the generation that will see all these things occur. The time-line in these passages don’t line up with what preterists want to believe. The first sign that it is time to flee is the Abomination of Desolation in vs. 15. Historically, what preterists consider this fulfillment to be is years after the siege of Jerusalem started. Jerusalem was indeed surrounded and it would have been impossible for Jews to flee anywhere. If it was there wouldn’t be the death count that high. There is a great difference between daily tribulation and the great tribulation. John was most certainly not speaking of the great trib but the personal tribulations of varying degrees that all christians encounter when dealing with the unbelieving world.
Both are wrong.

The "abomination of desolation" was Christ crucified.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
7. If the book of Revelation is for us today, why would John write to the seven churches if it had nothing to do with them? Why would John torture these first-century Christians with impossible and intricate symbolic labyrinths that applied only to people 2,000 years later? Why does Revelation say some 30 times that the events MUST be fulfilled SOON? (Examples: Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6, 12, 20)
As answered before, God’s concept of time must be taken into account. One of the things I find interesting in the preterist view is they get all concerned about “latter day” prophecies extending for a couple thousand years or more, but depending on one’s view of creation the “former” days extended for a minimum of 4000 + yrs. 2000+ is only half the time. I believe God had them sent to seven churches to assure His word would persevere and be handed down through the centuries and also to insure greater circulation amongst the church in general . I think the seven churches knew that many of the prophecies didn’t apply to them because of Rev. 1:19 things in the past, present and future. The present was cps. 1-3, the past is cps. 4-5 and the first part of cp. 12. The future (hereafter) is the rest from cps. 6-22.
The book of Revelation itself declares the times which it pertains to:

"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this", which is to say, all of time...or "a time, times, and the half of time."
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
8. Why does Hebrews 10:37 say that in a VERY VERY (“very” is there twice in the Greek) LITTLE WHILE Jesus would return and not delay? Were the writer of Hebrews and the other biblical writers that expressed the same thing FALSE PROPHETS?
He is reiterating Hab. 2:3-4. According to my sources, the est. date of this book is 607 bc., nearly 400 years before His first coming. I’m assuming the Jews to whom the author was speaking knew of this time and understood by that, that it probably wouldn’t happen in their lifetime.
You didn't answer the question, except to assume the Jew's assumption with your own assumption, while defining "soon" as later, against the clear written word of God.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
9. If the biblical “last days” are in the 21st century, why does Peter and the writer of Hebrews both say the last days were in their time (Acts 2:16-17; Hebrews 1:1-2)?
There is no time frame given for the length of time of the latter days. It seems reasonable to me that if the former days were 4000 yrs. +, then it should come as no surprisem that the latter days consists of thousands of years as well. We are told, however, of what the final seven years will consist of.
Almost...

Except, we are not told that there are seven final years that are future. On the contrary, we are told there are seven "times", which is translated for us as "time, times" (and half a time)." So, not seven, and not years.

And the latter times, are the times after Christ, the times of the gentiles.
 
Last edited:

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Scott, We must agree to disagree as we are miles apart prophetically speaking but this is part of Satan's plan to divide the church and disguise the truth of prophecy by offering multiple interpretations, so that in the end most Christians will be confused and unprepared for what is about to fall on them, believing the lie, which will lead to the apostasy which causes Christ to ask..."When I return, will there be faith left upon the earth?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
10. If the biblical “last days” started in the first century, but continue to this day, why did Peter say the end of all things was at hand, and the judgment was about to begin when he was writing (1 Peter 4:7, 17)? Given Jesus’ condemnation of the Jews of his day, which He said would be in their generation (Matthew 23:29-39), isn’t it logical that this is the Great Judgment of which the New Testament speaks?
I’m assuming that you’re speaking of the GWTJ of Rev. 20. My eschatology is pre-wrath and as such we believe the Great Trib is the earthly trial of 70th week christians, not a judgement per se. The language of vs. 7 is the same as earlier. Another way to look at it is the various authors are speaking forward in faith as Heb. 11: 1,3 shows us.
Again...that takes a lot of assuming on your part...against the clear word of God, per se.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Scott, We must agree to disagree as we are miles apart prophetically speaking but this is part of Satan's plan to divide the church and disguise the truth of prophecy by offering multiple interpretations, so that in the end most Christians will be confused and unprepared for what is about to fall on them, believing the lie, which will lead to the apostasy which causes Christ to ask..."When I return, will there be faith left upon the earth?"
That should lead you to question your position, of whether you are in the "most Christians" group or not. If so...your own words are now added to the word of God, as a warning.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Cor. vss align with vs. 11 but vs. 12 is a different topic. Regarding that verse, God created a hierarchy for a purpose so I am in agreement that a woman should not pastor if their is a qualified man in the congregation.
GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply.

second, it that not awkward what you said? oh she can Pastor only if a male is not present? think about what you just said, "A womna can Pastor", only when a male is not around. but she can pastor right... do you see how that sounds.

third no, there is no hierarchy of GENDER in the Church of the Lord Jesus. maybe in your congergation, but not in the Church of the Lord Jesus. for there is neither MALE nor FEMALE in Christ Jesus. understand, when you said, "if a male is around". that's fleshly thinking. those who mind the things of the FLESH, well let the word of God speak.
Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

see, when you say a male must be absent in order for a femal to pastor. you speak DEATH. and another thing, no male nor female is the PASTOR of the Lord Jesus church, JESUS is the Pastor in the Person he choses. understand Pastoring is a "GIFT" and not an office to hold.
so your Gender hierarchy dose not apply to the church. only to your FAMILY as Husband and wife.

hoped that helped.