The Criteria of Antichrist.

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brakelite

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Not at all. If you are referring to 1500 years of Christianity under Rome, it simply means that the Gospel was not really preached during that time. Sacerdotalism and Sacramentalism took over ( as well as superstitious nonsense). Therefore the Reformation (preceded by the Renaissance) was a divine necessity.
I agree that the true gospel wasn't preached by Rome, but that doesn't mean it wasn't preached. That time period of the rule of Rome, 1260 years, was also a time period where the true church was driven into the wilderness. She was a persecuted church. But she didn't cease to function, in fact there was great victories won on behalf of Christ in all nations not under the Papal Roman yolk. From Great Britain (the Celtic Church of Patrick, Dinooth, Aiden, Columbanus etc) to the Waldenses of the Piedmont and southern France, to the Assyrian Church in the East under the principals of John and others, all the way to China (Seres) where entire kingdoms were established with Christianity freely practiced. Genghis Khans own children and grandchildren, princes and princesses in their own right, were Christian.
Yet prophecy does not always touch on these except in a general sense (church of the wilderness) because western Europe was the focus because that was here the turmoil and persecutions were. We cannot ignore that theater of war that continued for all of the prophecied 1260 years. More on that time factor later.
He quotes a very remarkable one, v. 26, from Isa. 59:20, Isa. 59:21 . Where we may observe, [1.] The coming of Christ promised: There shall come out of Zion the deliverer. Jesus Christ is the great deliverer, which supposes mankind in a state of misery and danger. In Isaiah it is, the Redeemer shall come to Zion.There he is called the Redeemer; here the deliverer; he delivers in a way of redemption, by a price. There he is said to come to Zion, because when the prophet prophesied he was yet to come into the world, and Zion was his first head-quarters. Thither he came, there he took up his residence: but, when the apostle wrote this, he had come, he had been in Zion...'
Yes, there are some on this forum who have similar views., denying any literal future second coming. I do hope you do not lump me in with them. I am an Adventist. To the core. As I suggest are most here. Yes?
 

CoreIssue

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I sense that you do not fully understand what historicism actually is...you are confusing it with preterism.
Were Seventh Day Adventists the first to use the historicist hermeneutinc to understand prophecy? Did they invent this approach to sustain certain prophetic interpretations that popular theology rejected? No. Most commentators right from the early church recognised the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 as successive phases of Christianity from the time of John to the consummation of all things.
The 7 seals also were recognised as reflecting successive phases of Christianity from John to the second coming. For example, Ambrose, Bishop of Havilburg writing in the 12 century said, “The white horse typifies the earliest state of spiritual gifts and the rider, Christ, with the bow of evangelical doctrine…the red horse is the next state of the church, red with the blood of martyrdom; from Stephen the protomartyr to the martyrs under Diocletian…the black horse depicts the church’s 3rd state, blackened after Constantine’s time with heresies…the pale horse signified the church’s 4th state; coloured with the hue of hypocrisy.” He said this state commenced from the beginning of the 5th century. This historicist view of the seals was the usual view of expositors down through the centuries.

The trumpets also were considered an historical overview of the rise and fall of secular kingdoms from the time of Christ to the future second advent. Scholars such as Daubuz, Mede, Jurieu, along with most all reformation protestants saw the trumpets 1-6 as depicting the desolations and fall of first the western empire of Rome and then the eastern. In 1802 Gulloway, in harmony with many others, viewed the first 4 trumpets as a picture of the Gothic invasions of the west, the 5th and 6th trumpets or the first 2 of the 3 ‘woes’, as depicting the invasions of the Saracens and the Turks in the east.

The prophecies of Daniel can be readily understood by using the historicist approach. Futurism and preterism both leave many unanswered questions, many unfulfilled details, and tend to make prophetic interpretation look more like guesswork and wishful thinking rather than the accurate study and strengthening of faith that it can be.
The image of Daniel 2 sets the foundation for every subsequent vision and prophecy from Daniel to Revelation. What God has set down as His word in Daniel 2 cannot be altered to suit one’s false theories when it comes to studying Revelation. All subsequent prophecies are to be studied on the principle of ‘repeat and enlarge’. That is, once Daniel 2 is understood, any further consideration of later visions must be based on Daniel 2, only with the addition of further detail. Daniel 2 sets the scene, everything else must fit into what Daniel 2 has laid down as the bottom line. For example, there is no gap between the legs of iron (Pagan Rome) and the iron/clay mix of the feet. The feet are not to be amputated in order to fit the futurist perspective of the future. History is an unbroken progression...prophecy predicted it as an unbroken progression...to place gaps and discard 1500 to 2000 years of history because its inconvenient in effect hides the true Antichrist from view as we shall see as we progress in this study.

Historicism, a method of interpretation of Biblical prophecies, associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events. It can result in a view of progressive and continuous fulfillment of prophecy covering the period from Biblical times to the Second Coming. Almost all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century held historicist views.

Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets some or all prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
 
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brakelite

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The little horn came out of the third beast, Greece.
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, (Rome) (the third beast has already been identified as Greece) dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom (this kingdom here referred to was the last dragon like beast empire which all scholars admit can only be Pagan Rome). are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
 
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brakelite

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Historicism, a method of interpretation of Biblical prophecies, associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events. It can result in a view of progressive and continuous fulfillment of prophecy covering the period from Biblical times to the Second Coming. Almost all Protestant Reformers from the Reformation into the 19th century held historicist views.

Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets some or all prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
The above I agree with wholly. And on that basis above I classify myself as historicist, and my studies here on that basis. So if you believe as you correctly describe above, why did you say this???
That does not qualify as historicism. Historicism says it was all accomplished in the past, already a done deal.
 

CoreIssue

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Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, (Rome) (the third beast has already been identified as Greece) dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom (this kingdom here referred to was the last dragon like beast empire which all scholars admit can only be Pagan Rome). are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

None of the four beasts were ever called Dragon's. That is in revelations

Referring to Satan.

The 10 kings are the 10 toes run collapses into.

When the AC reforms the Roman Empire he will subdue three of them.

So what is your point? This is off topic to what I said.
 

CoreIssue

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The above I agree with wholly. And on that basis above I classify myself as historicist, and my studies here on that basis. So if you believe as you correctly describe above, why did you say this???

Because they are both false doctrines.

The restored Roman Empire with the AC as Emperor has not happened yet.

The rapture has not happen yet.

The second coming has not happened to.

The AC is not been revealed yet.

The restrainer has not been revealed yet.

The seven-year treaty by the AC has not happened yet.

The EU has not become the restored pagan Roman. Empire

And a lot more.
 
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brakelite

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Because they are both false doctrines.

The restored Roman Empire with the AC as Emperor has not happened yet.

The rapture has not happen yet.

The second coming has not happened to.

The AC is not been revealed yet.

The restrainer has not been revealed yet.

The seven-year treaty by the AC has not happened yet.

The EU has not become the restored pagan Roman. Empire

And a lot more.
It is because you believe all of the above that I am presenting this thread.
 
B

brakelite

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None of the four beasts were ever called Dragon's. That is in revelations
I said dragon-like. And it is. Same appearance. And I wasn't referring to all the beasts, just the fourth.
Referring to Satan.
Indeed, in the prime sense. But he has his representatives, and pagan Rome was one of them. The first beast of Revelation 13 is a more advanced concept, a more mature and developed replica of himself.
The 10 kings are the 10 toes run collapses into.
Which I just described in criteria number 2.
When the AC reforms the Roman Empire
Papal Rome was a continuation of the Roman Empire, calling it "holy". Same form of governance...same territory...even 'pontiff' is Roman. The Pope is just another Caesar.
So what is your point? This is off topic to what I said.
My point in posting those verses from Daniel is to show you that the little horn I am referencing in this thread is the little horn that grew out of pagan Rome, among the other ten...thus is a Roman horn. Not Greece, although the RCC did inherit some Grecian attributes and philosophies.
 

Jay Ross

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:) I suppose everyone's allowed, but I think that was a dodge. I know you hold to this view, but it transforms the fourth beast into a spiritual destroyer and devourer when all the beasts before it were unquestionably military powers in no uncertain terms. I find it much more consistent to look for another military power, and not just any military power but the most powerful and destructive one the earth has ever seen or ever will.

My understanding of Daniel 7 is that all of the beasts, including the little horn/false prophet are fallen wicked heavenly hosts. The people who chose to inhabit their respective dominions also tend to manifest their defined characteristic.

Shalom
 
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brakelite

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My understanding of Daniel 7 is that all of the beasts, including the little horn/false prophet are fallen wicked heavenly hosts. The people who chose to inhabit their respective dominions also tend to manifest their defined characteristic.

Shalom
So you calling Gabriel mistaken when he told Daniel who those beasts represented?
 

VictoryinJesus

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They will have missed out on the great prize (the Divine nature and joint heirship with their Lord) for which they were originally called, to sit with Christ in his throne, but they will nevertheless be permitted to stand (howbeit on a much lower plane of existence) before the throne of God and to serve him in his temple in heaven.

“however on a much lower plane of existence” ...why is it that every message out there follows the model of some superior while others in a lower existence? See...it just doesn’t fit. (Imo) with Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

“...He (the Lord) will come forth and serve them.” Service to another’s benefit seems to be a constant for HIM. Coming under and lifting up. (This IS the divine nature!) And those like Him (that share His nature) will they not also come forth and serve and lift up? Also (Romans 11:1-36) tells why they were blinded with a warning to not be highminded.
 
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brakelite

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“however on a much lower plane of existence” ...why is it that every message out there follows the model of some superior while others in a lower existence? See...it just doesn’t fit. (Imo) with Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

“...He (the Lord) will come forth and serve them.” Service to another’s benefit seems to be a constant for HIM. Coming under and lifting up. (This IS the divine nature!) And those like Him (that share His nature) will they not also come forth and serve and lift up? Also (Romans 11:1-36) tells why they were blinded with a warning to not be highminded.
On that same vein I am reminded of the parable of the workers who were called late to the vineyard. They got paid the same as those who started in the morning and who worked through the heat of the day.
 

Hidden In Him

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No not at all. The fourth beast was pagan Rome. Military to its very core. It is the little horn that is a combination of church and state, yet still Roman. The RCC is just that. A church/state union which incorporated many pagan institutions into its belief system inherited from not just Rome, but also Greece, Media/Persia, and Babylon, as most of us are fully aware and readily admit yes? That is why the composite beast of Revelation 13 1-3 is such an accurate picture of the Catholic church/Antichrist beast. A composite of all that has gone before it and from which she inherited much of who she is. And many of the attributes that belong to the little horn, are repeated as belonging to the first beast of Revelation 13, which is why most scholars say they are one and the same.

Brakelite, your position fits neatly into a spiritualization, but bears no true resemblance to the natural. Yes the beasts of Revelation 13:1-3 parallel the beasts of Daniel 7, and the territories these beast empires ruled over militarily cover the land now ruled over by purely MUSLIM nations. To say Catholicism holds sway over this region, or ever will, is too big a stretch for me.
 

Enoch111

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Brakelite, your position fits neatly into a spiritualization, but bears no true resemblance to the natural.
Not sure about Brakelite, but there are quite a few here who love to spiritualize Scripture, and then take the stance that they are more spiritual than you.
 

ScottA

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Not sure about Brakelite, but there are quite a few here who love to spiritualize Scripture, and then take the stance that they are more spiritual than you.
Who is more spiritual, God or man?

Why then do you criticize?

(Rhetorical)
 

Jay Ross

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So you calling Gabriel mistaken when he told Daniel who those beasts represented?

The question that I have been asking myself is when did the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 begin to manifest themselves within the ruling empires and kingdoms of the world.

The third beast of Dan 7:1-12 has four heads and also four crowns as indicated in Revelation, and they manifested/formed after Alexandra the Great had died who had conquered the Medes and the Persians.

So to connect the dots as you are suggesting is not in agreement with scripture. Also, the beast of Daniel 7:19ff and the Little Horn occur at least 1,000 years after the finish of the Daniel 7:1-12 section of chapter 7.

You say Gabriel identified two of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 but Gabriel was only explaining the vision that Daniel had had in Chapter 8.

You also claim that the beasts of chapter 7 cannot be wicked fallen heavenly hosts but you claimed justification from chapter 8 does not indicate that Daniel had seen any of the manifestations of the beasts from chapter 7.

Scripture does strongly support my expressed opinion above.

Shalom

PS: - if the four Grecian Empires are a manifestation of the third beast, then where are they today so that they can be lead to Armageddon to be judged for their deeds against God? Have they not faded into history and been replace by other world powers which also manifest and inhabit the dominion of the third beast?
 

Harvest 1874

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Why is it that every message out there follows the model of some superior while others in a lower existence?

Why? Because that is exactly what the scriptures teach.

In My Father’s house (kingdom) are many mansions (dwellings, abodes, conditions or levels of being); if it were not so, I would have told you…” (John 14:2)

A failure to distinguish between the two salvations and the two phases of God’s kingdom is the primary reasons why many get confused on this issue.

The whole purpose of the spiritual or heavenly phase of the kingdom is to uplift and bless the earthly phase, or as the Lord so states the matter to Abraham, "In thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” (Gen 22:18)

The Apostle Paul informs us in Gal 3:29 that the seed here spoken of is not Abraham’s natural seed, but those faithful Christians who fully consecrate themselves to the Lord during the Gospel age, these are to be made heirs according to the promise.

The promise being that the seed would be used to bless everyone else. Now we are at the crux of the matter. If true Christians are the seed, we see God's eventual purpose for them: the blessing of all the nations of the earth, and the resurrecting of all those who have died (just as Abraham expected) so that they too could be blessed. Those who go to heaven will be part of the great Messiah, the Christ, which will bless those here on earth. (Obadiah 21) We must bear in mind that when the promise was made to Abraham, he had no conception or idea that there was to be BOTH an earthly seed as well as a spiritual seed, he expected the same thing that all Jews have always believed, that the Messiah would reign on earth and that they as a nation would be used to bless all the other nations.

Abraham could not have fully understood the Lord’s true meaning when he proclaimed the promise, “in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven (the heavenly seed, Christ and the Church) and as the sand which is on the seashore (the earthly seed)…” Gen 22:17

Here we have our first two planes of existence, and earthly plane and a spiritual or heavenly plane, those who are “called” now during the “acceptable time” who are found faithful unto death who make their calling and election sure will share with Christ in his reward and in his inheritance, that reward being the “crown of life” (Rev 2:10) the divine nature, inherent life or immortality. It’s being referred to as the “crownof life indicates that it is the highest form of life one which presently is possessed only by the Father and the Son.

To this great reward, “Many are called.” But not so many respond to the call. The majority are either deceived by the “blind guides” of Christendom into believing that a mere profession of faith is all that is required to receive a heavenly inheritance or noting the fact that the Vows of consecration, the requirements necessary to be a disciple of Christ score hard against the will of the flesh and make the way to glory much narrower than they had imagined decline to enter the “straight gate and the narrow way”.

In order to share in our Lord’s reward it is required that one be willing to share in his cup of suffering and self-sacrifice--share in his baptism into his death. Few there are amongst professed Christians who are willing to do this and fewer still though willing are faithfully fulfilling all that is required of them in their covenant (1 Cor 4:2). Thus it is that “Many are called, but few chosen” (Matt. 20:16), few proven faithful unto death.

But be it noticed that the called ones, not chosen, are not condemned, nevertheless they will suffer great loss and disappointment when they realize all that they have lost due to their unfaithfulness, the great prize, the great privilege to which they were invited to aspire.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (loss of the prize for which he was called, the privilege of joint heir-ship with Christ in his honor, in his glory, and in the divine nature): but he himself shall be saved (saved to a lesser honor, a lower plane of existence); yet so as by fire (trouble, calamity, great tribulation)” 1 Cor 3:15

"Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away. (John 15:2)

Many of us, who love the Lord dearly, but because of the deceitfulness (weakness) of the flesh and the love of the world fail to live up to our covenant of complete sacrifice to the Lord, shall find ourselves relegated to a lesser honor, a lower level upon the spirit plain.

In a great house (My Father’s house) there are not only vessels of gold (the “Little Flock”) and silver (the “Great Company”), but also of wood and earth (mankind), some for (great) honor and some for less honor.” (2 Tim 2:20)

The Great Company is a class of those who fail to rectify the failings and sins apparent before them, until they are purged with fiery trials in order to spare their life, accomplishing for them "the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (the new life in them) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Cor. 5:5)

“Those who made a covenant to sacrifice their lives in the service of the Lord, the truth and the brethren, and who on the strength of this were begotten of the Spirit to a spirit nature, and who subsequently neglected to fulfill their covenant or vow, would be liable to the second death on this account; but in great mercy the Lord purposes to pass them through a ‘great tribulation’ and to accept as ‘conquerorsthose who will stand the tests of that time of trouble loyally.”
 

VictoryinJesus

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Why? Because that is exactly what the scriptures teach.

In My Father’s house (kingdom) are many mansions (dwellings, abodes, conditions or levels of being); if it were not so, I would have told you…” (John 14:2)

A failure to distinguish between the two salvations and the two phases of God’s kingdom is the primary reasons why many get confused on this issue.

The whole purpose of the spiritual or heavenly phase of the kingdom is to uplift and bless the earthly phase, or as the Lord so states the matter to Abraham, "In thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” (Gen 22:18)

The Apostle Paul informs us in Gal 3:29 that the seed here spoken of is not Abraham’s natural seed, but those faithful Christians who fully consecrate themselves to the Lord during the Gospel age, these are to be made heirs according to the promise.

The promise being that the seed would be used to bless everyone else. Now we are at the crux of the matter. If true Christians are the seed, we see God's eventual purpose for them: the blessing of all the nations of the earth, and the resurrecting of all those who have died (just as Abraham expected) so that they too could be blessed. Those who go to heaven will be part of the great Messiah, the Christ, which will bless those here on earth. (Obadiah 21) We must bear in mind that when the promise was made to Abraham, he had no conception or idea that there was to be BOTH an earthly seed as well as a spiritual seed, he expected the same thing that all Jews have always believed, that the Messiah would reign on earth and that they as a nation would be used to bless all the other nations.

Abraham could not have fully understood the Lord’s true meaning when he proclaimed the promise, “in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven (the heavenly seed, Christ and the Church) and as the sand which is on the seashore (the earthly seed)…” Gen 22:17

Here we have our first two planes of existence, and earthly plane and a spiritual or heavenly plane, those who are “called” now during the “acceptable time” who are found faithful unto death who make their calling and election sure will share with Christ in his reward and in his inheritance, that reward being the “crown of life” (Rev 2:10) the divine nature, inherent life or immortality. It’s being referred to as the “crownof life indicates that it is the highest form of life one which presently is possessed only by the Father and the Son.

To this great reward, “Many are called.” But not so many respond to the call. The majority are either deceived by the “blind guides” of Christendom into believing that a mere profession of faith is all that is required to receive a heavenly inheritance or noting the fact that the Vows of consecration, the requirements necessary to be a disciple of Christ score hard against the will of the flesh and make the way to glory much narrower than they had imagined decline to enter the “straight gate and the narrow way”.

In order to share in our Lord’s reward it is required that one be willing to share in his cup of suffering and self-sacrifice--share in his baptism into his death. Few there are amongst professed Christians who are willing to do this and fewer still though willing are faithfully fulfilling all that is required of them in their covenant (1 Cor 4:2). Thus it is that “Many are called, but few chosen” (Matt. 20:16), few proven faithful unto death.

But be it noticed that the called ones, not chosen, are not condemned, nevertheless they will suffer great loss and disappointment when they realize all that they have lost due to their unfaithfulness, the great prize, the great privilege to which they were invited to aspire.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (loss of the prize for which he was called, the privilege of joint heir-ship with Christ in his honor, in his glory, and in the divine nature): but he himself shall be saved (saved to a lesser honor, a lower plane of existence); yet so as by fire (trouble, calamity, great tribulation)” 1 Cor 3:15

"Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away. (John 15:2)

Many of us, who love the Lord dearly, but because of the deceitfulness (weakness) of the flesh and the love of the world fail to live up to our covenant of complete sacrifice to the Lord, shall find ourselves relegated to a lesser honor, a lower level upon the spirit plain.

In a great house (My Father’s house) there are not only vessels of gold (the “Little Flock”) and silver (the “Great Company”), but also of wood and earth (mankind), some for (great) honor and some for less honor.” (2 Tim 2:20)

The Great Company is a class of those who fail to rectify the failings and sins apparent before them, until they are purged with fiery trials in order to spare their life, accomplishing for them "the destruction of the flesh that the spirit (the new life in them) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Cor. 5:5)

“Those who made a covenant to sacrifice their lives in the service of the Lord, the truth and the brethren, and who on the strength of this were begotten of the Spirit to a spirit nature, and who subsequently neglected to fulfill their covenant or vow, would be liable to the second death on this account; but in great mercy the Lord purposes to pass them through a ‘great tribulation’ and to accept as ‘conquerorsthose who will stand the tests of that time of trouble loyally.”

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Not sure about all the rest only;
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.