Soul Sleep?

The Rich Man & Lazarus

Not a Parable but a Spiritual teaching of two types of People. Their state in this life was greatly in contrast with their real character before God, which was revealed in the amazing changes of their condition at death. Let’s breakdown this Spiritual teaching one step at a time.

First, how do we know it’s a Spiritual Teaching and not a Parable? There are sign post in God word to alert us to things, and one of them is here in this teaching. The sign post to notice or the alerted of our attention is the word “Certain”. anytime one sees the term “certain” about someone or place, used by the Lord Jesus, look out a spiritual teaching is coming. scripture, Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Step #1. Identifying the ACTORS.

Actors #1. the Pharisees and the scribes, the religious leaders of Israel. Here is the reference
Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day”

purple and fine linen?: Jeremiah 10:8 "But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
Jeremiah 10:9 "Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

the religious leaders of Israel here wore fine clothing, Verses 14 and also the scribes, the previous chapter 15:1, at the start of these sayings. MEN WITHOUT FAITH, the Enemy of God.

Cunning: H2450 חָכָם chakam (chaw-kawm') adj.
wise, i.e. intelligent, skilful or artful.
[from H2449]
KJV: cunning (man), subtil, (un-), wise((hearted), man).

They had “wisdom”, but just not from above. As Jeremiah the prophet said, “cunning” men. And these Pharisees, who were also covetous, Luke 16:14 "And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Covetous: G5366 φιλάργυρος philarguros (fiyl-ar'-ǰ ï-ros) adj.
fond of silver (money), i.e. avaricious

What did Jeremiah also say of these “cunning” men? Jeremiah 10:9a "Silver spread into plates”

There is our first actor. Lovers of Money, as in the definition above “Covetous”, fond of sliver, as which they gave to Judas 30 pieces of. and because of their riches, they wore and ate the best. So actors #1 is the Pharisees and the scribes, the religious leaders of Israel.


Actor #2. the outcast, and undesirable, the dogs… aka the Gentiles. Here are the references.
Luke 16:20 "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 "And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

The Beggar: the outcast, the poor in spirit, the dogs, the Gentiles.

The NAME, Lazarus, identifies those whom God helps, who was not his people are now his people. Those that "was" without an inheritance is now fellow citizens in the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 66:1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Isaiah 66:2 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

let's see it,
Matthew 15:21 "Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Matthew 15:22 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Matthew 15:23 "But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. (take note of this)
Matthew 15:26 "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Matthew 15:27 "And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Matthew 15:28 "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Identity of these whom God helps. Lazarus:: Eliezer: H461 אֱלִיעֶזֶר 'Eliy`ezer (el-ee-eh'-zer) n/p.
1. (meaning) God of help.
2. Eliezer, the name of a Damascene and of ten Israelites.
[from H410 and H5828]
KJV: Eliezer.

Who was this Damascene? Genesis 15:2 "And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Genesis 15:3 "And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Hence, the person of Faith is Abraham heir in Christ, and not of the flesh.

Now at the GATE, the “Judgment of Justice”.
1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3 "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Now,
James 2:13 "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

I suggest one read Gill’s commentary on James 2:13, it a direct reference to the spiritual teaching.

Next time we will get into the heart of the spiritual teaching as to where the rich man was and Lazarus.

#1. God don't put people bodies in suspended animation.

#2. Lazarus was "DEAD" in the grave 4 days.

CoreIssue said:

Prove it.

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#1. Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God don't suspend, he resurrect...

#2. John 11:39 "Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Hidden In Him said:

Let me show you what I mean.
The only other NT use of the word is in 2 Timothy 2:14: "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subversion of the hearers." (KJV).

Now to have a reasonably decent translation of a word, it would need to be applied with some consistency. The word meant basically "catastrophe or overthrow," as it does here: "charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the [spiritual] subversion or overthrow of the hearers." But by his translation he would have this verse read, "charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the extinction of the hearers."

We can go to the LXX uses next if you want, but it's probably not going to be any more flattering to this translation he is using.

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Hidden, katastrophé is simply referring to the result of what death is, the word destruction is also synonymous with death.. I found great synonyms for "death" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Traditionalism teaches that you can take one verse out of the Bible and come to a conclusion about something, but in proper context 2 Cor 5:8 if you expand it is in reference to changing from mortality to immortality.

You look at chapters as a whole, there are so many scriptures but not to overwhelm you..

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The scene in Isaiah 66 depicts carcases being eaten by worms and being burnt up by fire. It’s not a picture of living souls being tormented by fires that burn forever and worms that never die.

The significance of the worms is rather interesting, because in Jewish culture it was considered shameful for a dead body to see decay. Bodies needed to be properly buried, not left out in the open to be devoured by scavengers, maggots and fire. The picture that Isaiah is describing, and which Jesus referencing is a picture of unstoppable decay and corruption.

2 Timothy 2:14 New International Version (NIV)
Dealing With False Teachers
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

2 Corinthians 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Isaiah 66:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

An unburied body is a health risk to everyone around. In the ancient world they were normally buried or burned to avoid such risk. Not to mention the stench.

Your nose tells you it is there Long before your eyes do.

Birds of prey will eat the dead in desperation, but normally only vultures do.

CoreIssue said:

2 Timothy 2:14 New International Version (NIV)
Dealing With False Teachers
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

2 Corinthians 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Isaiah 66:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

An unburied body is a health risk to everyone around. In the ancient world they were normally buried or burned to avoid such risk. Not to mention the stench.

Your nose tells you it is there Long before your eyes do.

Birds of prey will eat the dead in desperation, but normally only vultures do.

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2 Cor 5:8 is actually about mortality and immortality also spoken of in 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5 described as "being swallowed up". Job and Solomon also spoke of nakedness as being dead in the grave.

Hidden In Him said:

Let me ask you. The scriptures very clearly teach that the unjust shall experience a resurrection in the flesh:

All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).

Paul also testified before Felix, telling him, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:15).

My question is this: What would be the purpose of God resurrecting the unjust only to put them to death again? Again, am I in "favor" of eternal punishment? I honestly don't care. Whatever God decides to do with them is His business, not mine. But I have a responsibility before Him to rightly divide what His word actually teaches. Why would He resurrect them to put them to death again?

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He resurrects them for judgment, and mortality is the end result. Scripture doesn't really specify how long the lake of fire will burn, but it will eventually destroy their bodies and souls, unless you believe Jesus suffers for all eternity for the sins of the unjust. Did Jesus die in our place or was he eternally tormented in our place?

If the punishment that we justly deserved was eternal conscious torment, then how is it that the Bible says Christ died in our place? Jesus didn’t spiritually die in our place, He was actually crucified, and confirmed dead by the thrust of a Roman spear. So too is His resurrection a bodily resurrection, the tomb was found empty, and Thomas saw the holes in His hands and the felt the wound in His side. The resurrection is our proof that Jesus has broken the curse.

Paul vividly describes the beautiful symmetry of the Gospel:

Rom 5:12-21 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection weren’t mere earthly symbols of some greater spiritual reality. Jesus’ death and resurrection are the reality. The reality that ordinary everyday tragic death that plagues our existence, brought about by sin, has been conquered by the Lamb slain in our place, and by His resurrection from death we can trust in that resurrection that our enemy, death, has been defeated.

1Co 15:53-57 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are mortal and we will see corruption, unless we partake in the gift of eternal life. This clearly contradicts the notion that everybody will life forever, either in heaven or in hell. The Gospel is a life and death matter, not a matter of where immortal being spent eternity.

Hidden In Him said:

Believers in God receive the punishment they deserve for sinning against God by dying, just as He promised they would (Genesis 2:17). God never said the faithful who sinned against Him would deserve to be tormented forever in eternity. He said they would die. And He paid the price for that death in the flesh by dying in their place as a perfect sacrifice, so that physical death no longer have a hold over them in the flesh. This is what your passage in Romans was teaching. Hell is reserved for those who REJECT God completely; those who do not ask for forgiveness from sins.


And for those who reject God, they will continue to see corruption in their resurrected bodies forever because they rejected eternal life in favor of eternal torment and decay. This is why their worm will never die. They won't.

I don't think you and I are going to see eye to eye on this one anytime soon. May be best to just leave it here for now.

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The only reason we have a soul is because of the breath of life breathed into our bodies. Body, spirit then soul. Gen 2:7

this Spiritual teaching is in the Judgment, so let's pick it up and get an understanding.

Location, Location, Location, ... well that real estate .... on Earth.
let's break men tradition. in the OT all went to the same place... Sheol, for the dead knows NOTHING. this paradise in men minds in the Lower parts of the EARTH is a "tradition" by men. paradise is future from OT view. Listen.
Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
here the angels carried the begger went to Abraham bosom. Why? let's see,
Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
what do the gathering of his elect has to do with Abraham? let's see.

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9 "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

this CITY is the New Jerusalem, but why still Abraham? answer, the"father of a multitude". ok, what else?
Matthew 8:11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 8:12 "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

now,
Luke 13:28 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 13:29 "And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Luke 13:30 "And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

see, men have been taught, by tradition that paradise was the good place in the OT. put those old wives tales aside. also men say that this is a parable in Luke 16, when in fact, it's a spiritual reality that is to come, but the teaching is contemporary as to where you will be in the Judgment.


so this spiritual teaching is for anyone today, yes even today as with the malefacton on the CROSS today you "WILL" be with me in paradise, will is future tense.

next time, why as to the actors.

Hidden In Him said:

And scripture says he knows us before we are even conceived. How can He know that which has no soul?


Before I leave this, your position completely clouds what scripture actually teaches. It says He died not just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). John 1:29 says He "takes away the sins of the world." He is referring here to those sins that were deserving of physical death. These verses teach that the whole world is going to be resurrected in the flesh - whether they be just or unjust - because He has now atoned for the physical death of all of humanity through His death on a cross. But He has not atoned for the sins of those who reject Him. This is an unpardonable sin, and will be rewarded with eternal punishment.

Again, WHY resurrect the unjust only to kill them again? Your answer was He resurrects them, judges them, and "mortality is the end result." They were already dead, and they had already paid the price for their sins in the flesh. Why not just leave them that way?

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He knows us yes, but did we always obtain a body? No. Our souls cannot exist without a body, Gen 2:7. I agree, about the Bema and GWT, that's not what were d/iscussing. Aside from the lake of fire, destroying the body and soul is the punishment. Not living with Christ for eternity is the punishment. He can't make all things new unless He puts away death.

Will you not be mourning and crying for your friends and family that is in hell for eternity..

Rev 21:1 Then I saw " new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

The HEART of the Teaching. which man are U.

The children of Abraham, the servant of the Flesh, (the riches of this world), or the sons of the spirit, (the riches of the Glory of God).

Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Point #1. The rich man called Abraham, “Father”, and Abraham responded to him “Son”. this was father and son NATURALLY, according to the flesh, a NATURAL son. But Lazarus is a spiritual son by faith. Supportive scripture,

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 "And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:37 "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8:38 "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 “Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

This is brought out again by the Holy Ghost by his chosen apostle, Paul.

Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Romans 9:5 "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (STOP, that’s the separation).
Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So the rich man was a natural seed who was a servant, but not, not a spiritual seed who is a son.

Point #2. the Rich man asked now for mercy, which he showed no MERCY. This is the heart of the teaching as well as the HEART OF THE LAW TEACHING, listen, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”
(BONG!) sticks out like a sore thumb, don’t it. “do justly”, “LOVE MERCY”. Now, Back to Romans chapter 9. I suggest one re-read the whole chapter again to get the full picture, but I’ll post, (for space), the meat of the teaching. MERCY, Scripture, Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth”. WHY? ... Romans 9:23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

What “RICHES” you desire, of this WORLD which will pass away, or the Riches of God which is forever. Hence the “rich” man teaching. What rich man are you.

Point #3. LIFETIME. “But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented”. (again, the term lifetime tells us this is a JUDGMENT, the END). scripture,

Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 14:12 "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

So we can see that paradise is not OT, but end time testament from this teaching. There is no place in the OT that is a separated compartment, That’s tradition of men who ERROR. All go to the same place, the good, the bad, and the ugly. JESUS/God almighty when he returns will separate, for his Judgment is true. hence the remembrance of the malefactor/theif on the cross. "WHEN" you come into your KINGDOM. amen

“The Book of Life”

Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

"And beside all this", The different situation, or lifestyles of each men, both past and present, which should be observed and considered. and now it's "FIXED" or as the Lord Jesus says... it is written, no change.

Point #1. a lifetime? “remembrance” is in the book. Scripture, Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works". no works now can change your positions now.

The prophet Daniel prophesied this. Daniel 7:10 "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

But what’s so important about this verse 10 is verse 9 that precede it, listen, Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.”

So many people say the Ancient of days is the one whom many in the trinity belif calls the Father right… well think again. Compare the the Ancient of days here in verse 9 to the one speaking to John in chapter 1:12-20 .... who is the LORD JESUS...

But the books that was open, and is in “REMEMBRANCE” is revealed to us by the prophet Malachi, listen,
Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Malachi 3:17 "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. (this is very important)

Malachi 3:18 "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

As said before, the outcast, and the gentiles (the dogs in Luke 16) was saved by God. For the scriptures stated, Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Let’s see it in the Gentiles. Scripture, Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Acts 10:3 "He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

Acts 10:4 "And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

That Greek word “memorial” here is G3422 μνημόσυνον mnemosunon (mnee-mo-sï '-non) n.
a reminder (memorandum), i.e. record.
[from G3421]
KJV: memorial
Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

The Hebrew word for “remembrance” H2146 זִכרוֹן zikrown (zik-rone') n-m.
a memento (or memorable thing, day or writing).
[from H2142]
KJV: memorial, record.

This is the book of life, which Cornelius was written in, the book of LIFE, GENTILES. .

So again without a doubt this is end time judgment.

Point #2. “The Prophet to hear”
Luke 16:27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28 "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29 "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

“They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them”. what did they, (moses and the Prophet say?) Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken”.

There he stood teaching them. Right in their midst.

Point #3
“though one rose from the dead”.
Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Luke 18:33 "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

1 Corinthians 15:4 "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
how plain can one get?
There are many Jews today who still don’t believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, and want hear him.

So the whole teaching is an end time scenario. amen

Hidden In Him said:

No Heb 13:8, I will not. If they end up there, it means they will have made a conscious decision to reject God. My love for Him is greater than my love for my mother, father and family, and this is what the Lord requests of all of us (Luke 14:26).

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and I rather study and find the truth than take the easy way out which is traditionalism.

John was familiar with Isaiah's writings, Hidden......

How is it possible that the last enemy to be destroyed is death when nobody can actually die and instead both the saved as well as the unsaved enemies of God, live forever? How can all things be subjected to Jesus if every evil that has ever existed will keep existing eternally?

The Gospel of John quotes Isaiah 6:10 and states that "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him."..

Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

Smoke Rising forever

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

One can understand why this verse is popular among traditionalists, because at face value it seems cut and dried. Here you have a description of beast worshippers, being described as having the smoke of their torment ascending forever.

The logical inference here is simple:

1: The smoke of their torment rises forever
2: Therefore the torment must be happening forever

Except that once more when we look at how this phrase is used elsewhere in scripture, it does not describe a scene of people being eternally tormented, but a scene of massive and total destruction.

Isa 34:9-12 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

The images that John saw in his visions in Revelation consist entirely of images found the in Old Testament. It seems to me then that we cannot read these images in a vacuum without looking at their original use, and as with all the other images in the book of Revelation. When we do that though, we see Isaiah vividly describing the laying waste of a kingdom, where birds and reptiles roam former palaces, where owls nest, and carrion eaters like ravens dwell. It seems then that smoke rising forever, doesn’t mean what one might infer from a face-value reading, but a scenario where the destruction is total and final. Clearly this is not a scene of people being eternally, and consciously tormented.

Revelation 18 describes the harlot also being tormented with fire and the smoke of this torment is also described as going up forever. When John’s angelic interpreter interprets the vision for John however, the interpretation has nothing to do with torment. The Harlot symbolizes the city of Babylon and her torment symbolizes her destruction.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

So can we use this a key to decode the other things being tormented, in the Lake of fire? If something is tormented in the vision, then the interpretation is that it is being destroyed:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

We see, death and hades thrown into the lake of fire, and both Traditionalists and Annihilationists agree that this symbolizes the end of the underworld and the end of death itself.

We see the angelic interpreter himself interpret the symbol of torment in Revelation as the destruction of a city. We see, another symbol of the smoke of torment, also symbolizing destruction and the laying waste of a kingdom.

So when we see another instance of torment, this time the beast, the false prophet and the devil being thrown into the lake of fire and tormented in Revelation 20:10, do we conclude that this time the torment must be literal eternal torment or do we trust the consistency of the rest of Revelation and assume that this must mean the end of them?

Hidden In Him said:

Revelations 14:9-12 and Isaiah 34:9-12 are talking about two entirely different places. Isaiah's passage is about the great winepress of God, located in Bozrah and Idumea, where their bodies will be drained of their blood. The Revelations passage is about the Lake of Fire, which will be located in what is currently called the Dead Sea.


The verses are not talking about the destruction of cities or laying waste of kingdoms. They are talking about the torment of people:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

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Look at the bigger picture Hidden,

what do writers call it,, an analogy of sorts...

Babylon falls prior to the lake of fire.

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Rev 18:9-10 Then the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her. 10In fear of her torment, they will stand at a distance and cry out: “Woe, woe to the great city, the mighty city of Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.”

Rev 18:18 and cry out at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her, saying, ‘What city was ever like this great city?’

Heb 13:8 said:

do we conclude that this time the torment must be literal eternal torment or do we trust the consistency of the rest of Revelation and assume that this must mean the end of them?

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Hidden In Him said:

In the name of "consistency," you are throwing a whole lot of passages together into one great big hodgepodge, and confusing the daylights out of everything, LoL.

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Well, there's a consistency there, Babylon falls prior to the lake of fire Hidden