Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
Uhhhhh, no.

Truth is not relative. It does NOT depend on the “crowd” they speak to.
James and Paul are BOTH speaking the truth - from 2 different sides.

Paul is talking about the inefficacy of works of the MOSAIC LAW for salvation.
James is talking about the fact that works are PART of our faith as Christians.

Scripture is NEVER at odds with itself – YOUR moral relativism aside . . .

Believers are no longer under the law, we're under Grace. We're living in the Grace dispensation right now where belief saves you and not works.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Believers are no longer under the law, we're under Grace. We're living in the Grace dispensation right now where belief saves you and not works.
I never said we were under the Law.
That was for the JEWS (Matt. 5:17-20).

We are saved by FAITH - as long as you understand WHAT true faith is:
FAITH = Belief + Obedience (Works)
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is found in John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv), Hebrews 13:5-6 (kjv), and in Matthew 28:20 (kjv)

NONE of these verses supports the false, man-made invention of OSAS.

If you say so...

No - the Bible says so.

Methinks thou dost protest too much...

Chapter and verse, please.

I find that these verses do indeed support the true, Man-made doctrine of POTS (since Jesus is come in the flesh, is therefore a Man: and the doctrine originated from words that were spoken by Him).

HE said to Baptized in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT (Matt. 28:19).

Notice that it is the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost. What name is that, since you are claiming that a man is not saved apart from baptism? The only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved is the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But we can lose our salvation if we don't follow the Law?
WHAT are you talking about??

The Mosaic Law has been fulfilled. We are no longer bound by the Mosaic Law. ALL of the dietary, cleanliness and ceremonial aspect of the Mosaic Law were simply SHADOWS of what was to come. Christ is the REALITY (Col. 2:16-17). I thought we already got PAST this point.

Our Christian works have NOTHING to do with the Mosaic Law.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Methinks thou dost protest too much...

Chapter and verse, please.

I find that these verses do indeed support the true, Man-made doctrine of POTS (since Jesus is come in the flesh, is therefore a Man: and the doctrine originated from words that were spoken by Him).
I have already given MANY verses on this thread that obliterate the OSAS fallacy.

The Bible assures us that if we STOP believing and STOP being obedient - we LOSE it all (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Epignosis is the word used in these passages. It implies a full, experiential and relational knowledge of Christ - not just a simple knowledge (gnosis, oida) of the intellect.

Epignosis illustrates a person who has a deep relationship with someone.
Some Protestant encyclopedias even go so far as to define it as "Christian Faith".

Scripture can never be at odds with itself.
Once AGAINCONTEXT is not your friend . . .
Notice that it is the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost. What name is that, since you are claiming that a man is not saved apart from baptism? The only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved is the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).
Sooooooo Jesus was wrong when He commanded Trinitarian Baptism – but Peter got it “right”??

Methinks, YOU should join the Olympic Scriptural Acrobatics team . . .
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible assures us that if we STOP believing and STOP being obedient - we LOSE it all

Assures us? You sound like you think it is good news that someone might lose their salvation...this is very warped thinking impaho...you do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

Sooooooo Jesus was wrong when He commanded Trinitarian Baptism – but Peter got it “right”??

Peter was not being disobedient to Jesus' command to baptize in the name of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost, in Acts of the Apostles 2:38...you must remember that Jesus told the apostles doctrines that are not recorded in the gospels (see Acts of the Apostles 1:2-3); one of which is the absolute Oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...something that I can prove by comparing scripture with scripture.

PS I am what you would call a true Trinitarian...I believe in the real Trinity as opposed to the Tritheism that is touted by some as being the doctrine of the Trinity in some circles.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you do that every day when you demand works of Gods people, so you see BOL you condemn yourself like so many religious fanatics do.
I don’t demand ANYTHING from God’s people – HE does (Matt. 7:21, Luke 9:23).

If you’re NOT willing to do His will – then prepare for the consequences . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Assures us? You sound like you think it is good news that someone might lose their salvation...this is very warped thinking impaho...you do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
No – it’s NEVER a happy event when somebody loses their salvation.
I don’t wish that on ANYBODY.
Peter was not being disobedient to Jesus' command to baptize in the name of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost, in Acts of the Apostles 2:38...you must remember that Jesus told the apostles doctrines that are not recorded in the gospels (see Acts of the Apostles 1:2-3); one of which is the absolute Oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...something that I can prove by comparing scripture with scripture.

PS I am what you would call a true Trinitarian...I believe in the real Trinity as opposed to the Tritheism that is touted by some as being the doctrine of the Trinity in some circles.
No – you’re an anti-Trinitarian – much like the Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals.
This is a HERESY – not a Biblical truth.

God IS One – manifested in Three distinct Persons.
THAT is Christianity. Your “Oneness” heresy is not . . .


PS - Trinitarian Baptism was a UNANIMOUS teaching of the Early Church Fathers who said that it was passed down by the APOSTLES themselves.
Were they lying??
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I don’t demand ANYTHING from God’s people – HE does (Matt. 7:21, Luke 9:23).

If you’re NOT willing to do His will – then prepare for the consequences . . .
God demands nothing of any man, that is what religion does to Gods people to make them slaves and keep them from God as you do, you are a fine example of the worst of religion.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t demand ANYTHING from God’s people – HE does (Matt. 7:21, Luke 9:23).

If you’re NOT willing to do His will – then prepare for the consequences . . .

Jesus said, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple...

I guess that means no more internet proselytizing for you...since you have to forsake your computer (which is something that you have) in order to truly be a disciple of Jesus!
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No – you’re an anti-Trinitarian – much like the Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals.
This is a HERESY – not a Biblical truth.

God IS One – manifested in Three distinct Persons.

No, I really and truly believe in the Trinity. I believe that God is in three distinct Persons...but what do you make of Colossians 2:9 (kjv)?

PS - Trinitarian Baptism was a UNANIMOUS teaching of the Early Church Fathers who said that it was passed down by the APOSTLES themselves.
Were they lying??

Is Acts of the Apostles 2:38 (written before the early church fathers) a lie? Why did Peter depart from the formula that Jesus gave him? Was he being disobedient? Please note that the Holy Ghost isn't given to the disobedient (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No – it’s NEVER a happy event when somebody loses their salvation.
I don’t wish that on ANYBODY.
What I want you to know is that as one who believes in eternal security, I do not believe that we ought to discount the warnings in scripture against falling away; for I believe that the warnings serve as a safeguard that keeps a person in the fold through the fear of the LORD...

So if you don't wish the loss of salvation on anyone, then a true and faithful assurance that one cannot lose it is not something that you would want to fight against (since such an assurance might serve as a helmet in the fixture of spiritual battle)...it is only a false assurance of the same that would be an opponent of sound doctrine in your opinion...and this is also how I view the issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God demands nothing of any man, that is what religion does to Gods people to make them slaves and keep them from God as you do, you are a fine example of the worst of religion.
That’s NOT what the Word of God teaches (Matt. 7:21, Luke 9:23).
He demands our obedience.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple...

I guess that means no more internet proselytizing for you...since you have to forsake your computer (which is something that you have) in order to truly be a disciple of Jesus!
And now you sound just like the Gnostic Heretics who thought just as YOU do.

The WILLINGNESS to forsake everything we have for the Kingdom of God is what is important – NOT the idea that every Christian must abandon his house and job and live in the streets.

Learn to properly divide Scripture . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, I really and truly believe in the Trinity. I believe that God is in three distinct Persons...but what do you make of Colossians 2:9 (kjv)?
Colossians 2:9 is stating that Jesus is FULLY God.

It is NOT stating that HE manifests ALL 3 Persons.
Is Acts of the Apostles 2:38 (written before the early church fathers) a lie? Why did Peter depart from the formula that Jesus gave him? Was he being disobedient? Please note that the Holy Ghost isn't given to the disobedient (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
Peter didn’t “depart” from the Trinitarian formula. He is referring to the Baptism of Christ. Jesus gave EXPLICIT instructions in the Great Commission (Matt. 28-19).

We also see in the FIRST CENTURY document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)(AD 50), where the explicit instruction for Baptism is given:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That’s NOT what the Word of God teaches (Matt. 7:21, Luke 9:23).
He demands our obedience.
No He doesnt never has, it is what the religious do as you do to put men into bondage and keep the from God.

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

keep going...