Paul And The Law

mjrhealth · Dec 21, 2018

brakelite said:
Are you really a believer? You don't have the faith to believe God can keep you from sinning, how could anyone think you to be a believer? What good fit is there in teaching people that God's own laws are no longer laws, but suggestions?

more to do with this

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1. We never had the Law us gentiles,
2. Jesus never gave us the Law this bit . Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
3. An the reason why you are so fixated on sin is because.. Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. It was given to the Israelites, Hebrews, Jews why??. Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
4. We never came to Christ by the Law we come to Him by faith.
5. And since we are in Christ and dont serve the Law. sin is dead to us.. Rom_7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
6. And that is the reason why those who keep the law will always sin, sorry, be conscious of sin
7. Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

There is one very good reason why God put our Spirit into this fleshy Body, He isnt interested in the Vessel but what it contains, but you are trying to make the vessel look nice, a bit like cheap wine makers who make impressive bottles but teh wine taste like vinegar. I have said before, your religion is killing you, are you afraid to let go of it and Hold on to Christ, you cannot serve two master, which is it.

GodsGrace · Dec 21, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
and many will not believe GG, they hear the good news but do not receive it. this is referring to salvation only. salvation is a one time event, sanctification is the life long process

Rom 10 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

What happens if someone, somewhere along the walk with God, a person decides he no longer wants to serve God?

GodsGrace · Dec 21, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
and we are sanctified through the finished work of the cross only, not to save ourselves through non-osas

No H,
Justification is an act of God. When we repent and decide to follow God, we are justified, made a child of God, purely from HIS action. We have nothing to do with it.
It is an act of God.

Sanctification requires our cooperation. This is because we retain our free will when we're saved. God wants us to obey Him and walk with Him. WE h ave to move our feet and walk...we have to obey Him. It's a life-long process, as you agree.

Jesus died on the cross for us, He did all He could...but we have to do our part too.
Do I have to do some more carpet bombing with scripture? I will if you want.

Here are just 3...there are plenty. God wants us to work with Him.

James 4:17 ESV /
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Colossians 3:23-24 ESV /
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

2 Timothy 2:15 ESV /
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Heb 13:8 · Dec 21, 2018

GodsGrace said:
What happens if someone, somewhere along the walk with God, a person decides he no longer wants to serve God?

If he's a true believer He will be sanctified and disciplined.

Not wanting to serve God is not the same has denying Jesus is God, GG. Look at Jonah.

Heb 13:8 · Dec 21, 2018

GodsGrace said:
No H,
Justification is an act of God. When we repent and decide to follow God, we are justified, made a child of God, purely from HIS action. We have nothing to do with it.
It is an act of God.

Sanctification requires our cooperation. This is because we retain our free will when we're saved. God wants us to obey Him and walk with Him. WE h ave to move our feet and walk...we have to obey Him. It's a life-long process, as you agree.

Jesus died on the cross for us, He did all He could...but we have to do our part too.
Do I have to do some more carpet bombing with scripture? I will if you want.

Here are just 3...there are plenty. God wants us to work with Him.

Yes, it requires our part which believers do out of thankfulness of the cross, not in fear of losing salvation

brakelite · Dec 21, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
Yes, it requires our part which believers do out of thankfulness of the cross, not in fear of losing salvation

Again, you throw in a straw man argument. Who truly serves God out of fear? You said above that people serve out of thankfulness, and that is true. But what of love? What of the love that is placed in our hearts by the Spirit that motivates us to obedience, not our of fear of losing salvation, but out of the huntger and thirst for righteousness and eternal life engendered by that same Spirit?
KJV Matthew 5
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
KJV Romans 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Seeking for eternal life and immortality comes by constant well doing, not out of fear, but love and a passion for Christ.
Your failure to recognise this in others and your constant appeal to salvation by works indicates a shortfall in your own understanding of how faith works, not necessarily in others.

quietthinker · Dec 22, 2018

Dave L said:
If you make excuses, you'll end up using them.

Excuses for sin is non other than the self in ascendency.
The letters to the Churches of Revelation remind us of the perspective.... 'he who overcomes shall inherit......'

brakelite · Dec 22, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The final redeemed have their Father's name written in their foreheads. You speak here of the need to believe in the name of the Son of the Father. I have a question. What do you know of the meaning of names in scripture? Hint: When Moses asked to see God's glory, what did God reveal to Moses?

quietthinker · Dec 22, 2018

brakelite said:
Again, you throw in a straw man argument. Who truly serves God out of fear? You said above that people serve out of thankfulness, and that is true. But what of love? What of the love that is placed in our hearts by the Spirit that motivates us to obedience, not our of fear of losing salvation, but out of the huntger and thirst for righteousness and eternal life engendered by that same Spirit?
KJV Matthew 5
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
KJV Romans 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Seeking for eternal life and immortality comes by constant well doing, not out of fear, but love and a passion for Christ.
Your failure to recognise this in others and your constant appeal to salvation by works indicates a shortfall in your own understanding of how faith works, necessarily in others.

brakelite.... it is the indifference if not the disinterest in righteousness from a personal heart level that that generates many of the preceding posts.
Faith in Jesus has become for them a thing to debate. Faith that does not generate a love for personal righteousness is immature if not a religious trip.

brakelite · Dec 22, 2018

quietthinker said:
brakelite.... it is the indifference if not the disinterest in righteousness from a personal heart level that that generates many of the preceding posts.
Faith in Jesus has become for them a thing to debate. Faith that does not generate a love for personal righteousness is immature if not a religious trip.

Yes, I would agree. It seems rather incongruous but it appears that while people claim to accept Christ's righteousness, they reject the very law that was a reflection of that same righteousness. The only reason I can conclude for doing so is similar to your own, a distaste for true godliness.

Taken · Dec 22, 2018

brakelite said:
So if sin, which is transgression against the law, is the cancer and the gospel the cure, wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that getting rid of sin in the life through the power of God in the believing of the gospel is a better way to go resulting in obedience to the law, is a more satisfactory long term result? The law was never mankinds problem... It merely points out our failings and the wickedness of our hearts... Sin is and always was the problem. God wants sin dealt with. The law is holy, just, and good.

This may sound Odd...however,

The Law is FOR the LAWLESS...disobedient.

The Law is Three things.
1) Positive Law, ie a Directive of what TO DO
2) Negative Law, ie a Prohibition
3) Punitive Law, ie Punishment for disobedience according to, the Positive & Negative Laws.

The Lawless IS WHO the Law APPLIES TO.

Point being...the Law MUST first APPLY to an individual.

(Hebrews were given Laws, Jews were given Laws, Gentiles were Not included in that Applicability).

Why were Hebrews and Jews INCLUDED and NOT Gentiles?

The Law was First "GIVEN" by God.
Given "TO" the Hebrews.

Giving a Law, is simply God Stating.

What MADE the Law APPLICABLE TO the Hebrews....was "their AGREEMENT"

Ex 19
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do

Anyone can Subject themselves TO A Law, and that IS them making the Law Applicable to themselves, and thus also APPLICABLE to the Punitive Law, should they NOT obey the LAW.

When Jesus FULFILLED the LAW; the Punitive LAW became MOOT, meaning:

Without FORCE of a Law, there is NO Effect of the LAW. IOW, A fulfilled LAW, is no longer in Effect, and neither is the Punishment for not obeying a Law that no longer has Force.

A Jew, Under the Law, WHO, became (or today becomes ) Converted in Christ Jesus, was/is effectively, No longer Subject TO the Law, or Subject to the Punitive Laws.

A Jew, WHO elected to REMAIN Under the Law, (then and now) IS STILL, Subject to Obeying the Law, and Subject to Punitive Laws, for Disobedience to the Positive and Negative Laws.

All Gentiles, Never Under the "LAW", have become INCLUDED, The Word of God is being Spread across the entire World for ALL to Hear. (Unlike in the beginning, when the Word of God was only given a few.)

The Concept has not changed.
The World Hears by Godly servants who speak and spread the Word of God....and individuals in the World respond, WITH Interest, to hear and learn more...or WITH disinterest, and close their ears, turn it off, tune it out, walk away.

Some CHOOSE the Word of God TO apply to them, others Reject, thus it Does NOT apply to them. All an individuals choice.

Christ Jesus' teaching, covenant, revealing, is a bit different that for OT men.

OT men had umpteen 600+ plus Laws, (positive, negative, & punitive) .... AND
It was by their own determination and "power" to Adhere and keep in Obedience...

Tall Order. And FEW men could hold the distinction of NEVER violating a Law.

God had a Yearly Festival and Tradition established FOR THEM, FOR their "SIN (violation of the Law) OFFERING" and Forgiveness of the "SIN", (ie violation of the law).

Christ Jesus' Offering is Different...

A man electing to BELIEVE IN God, In Christ Jesus....AND Repent of his having had Disbelief...
And the man electing to GIVE his living body, to be spiritually crucified with Jesus' Body..
IS a man ... FORGIVEN ONCE of all of his SIN of having been AGAINST God.

That mans, Soul is restored, and his spirit quickened to eternal Life, and forever the Lord will be with that man, and that man with thee Lord God Almighty.

The Force and Effect of the Law?
What Law? Right...the whole of Gods Ten Laws, God Himself First wrote on stone tablets. And what about those Law(S) ?

Christ Jesus revealed, His combining those 10 Laws, into TWO.

Paraphrasing...
1) Love the Lord your God above and before all other things.
2) Love your neighbor...friends and enemies.

Tall Order. However the difference is, it is not by the mans POWER to keep those law(s), but rather by the POWER of Gods internal Spirit, a man can keep those laws.

A man IN Christ has established forever his relationship WITH their Lord God Almighty.

That is settled. What is not settled, is that there is the mans relationship and contact with umpteen different men in and of the world...relatives, friends, neighbors, bosses, sales clerks, auto drivers, politicos, bankers, etc. etc.

It is the numerous teachings in Scripture of Gods PRECEPTS..."PRECEPTS" (not Laws), which are Teachings about How God teaches for men (friend and foe) to interact with one another. Men can constantly be learning and putting into practice those things.

And men who do not do so well at accomplishing those things, have to suffer the consequences of discord that may occur between men. Those things have nothing to do with SIN, between men. And everything to do with Trespasses between men.

God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

GodsGrace · Dec 22, 2018

brakelite said:
Again, you throw in a straw man argument. Who truly serves God out of fear? You said above that people serve out of thankfulness, and that is true. But what of love? What of the love that is placed in our hearts by the Spirit that motivates us to obedience, not our of fear of losing salvation, but out of the huntger and thirst for righteousness and eternal life engendered by that same Spirit?
KJV Matthew 5
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
KJV Romans 2
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Seeking for eternal life and immortality comes by constant well doing, not out of fear, but love and a passion for Christ.
Your failure to recognise this in others and your constant appeal to salvation by works indicates a shortfall in your own understanding of how faith works, not necessarily in others.

I also don't know anyone who serves God out of fear.
So why this is always brought up, I don't know.
We all love our Lord and wish to please Him...
THIS is obedience...out of love.
It just seems like a way to get out of being obedient...I don't know...

Taken · Dec 22, 2018

GodsGrace said:
I also don't know anyone who serves God out of fear.
So why this is always brought up, I don't know.
We all love our Lord and wish to please Him...
THIS is obedience...out of love.
It just seems like a way to get out of being obedient...I don't know...

I know what you are saying, and have heard the same.

They are faulty on their understanding.

God does not want to teach for men to serve Him out of FEAR.

Scripture teaches "FOR A BEGINNING", typically a BEGINNER, new to learning about God.

Prov. 9:
[10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Men do things for one of two reasons;
FEAR or DESIRE.

There are many people who get up, go to work at their job, for FEAR of losing their job, or DESIRE, they love the money they get.

God lays it out, FEAR, what you do not KNOW.
If you do not KNOW the Lord, you should FEAR HIM.

But "servants", "His People", are not wondering who God is. They have learned the wisdom of God, Learned or are learning His Knowledge given us through His Word...
And His Understanding, is given those who ARE sealed unto Him. They serve by spreading His Word. They do so out of Desire and Love for Him.

Gods POWER IS "Fierce".
Be Against God, and one may get to experience His Fierce Power, in a way unfavorable to the person.
Be WITH God, and one will get to experience the Glory of His Power.

God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

GodsGrace · Dec 23, 2018

Taken said:
I know what you are saying, and have heard the same.

They are faulty on their understanding.

God does not want to teach for men to serve Him out of FEAR.

Scripture teaches "FOR A BEGINNING", typically a BEGINNER, new to learning about God.

Prov. 9:
[10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Men do things for one of two reasons;
FEAR or DESIRE.

There are many people who get up, go to work at their job, for FEAR of losing their job, or DESIRE, they love the money they get.

God lays it out, FEAR, what you do not KNOW.
If you do not KNOW the Lord, you should FEAR HIM.

But "servants", "His People", are not wondering who God is. They have learned the wisdom of God, Learned or are learning His Knowledge given us through His Word...
And His Understanding, is given those who ARE sealed unto Him. They serve by spreading His Word. They do so out of Desire and Love for Him.

Gods POWER IS "Fierce".
Be Against God, and one may get to experience His Fierce Power, in a way unfavorable to the person.
Be WITH God, and one will get to experience the Glory of His Power.

God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

Agreed, except I'd say that a servant does out of fear...
a Friend does out of love.

A happy Christmas to you too.
GG

GodsGrace · Dec 23, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
Yes, it requires our part which believers do out of thankfulness of the cross, not in fear of losing salvation

I never said we lose salvation because we serve God out of fear...
We lose salvation when we abandon what saves us....
GOD
JESUS
FAITH
LOVE

Call it what you will....
If faith saves......
then Not having faith....causes loss of that which it originally attained...salvation.
Ephesians 2:8

Taken · Dec 23, 2018

GodsGrace said:
Agreed, except I'd say that a servant does out of fear...

A servant of God, speaks His Word, praises Him, Glorifies His name on Earth...

And you do that out of fear? I don't.

a Friend does out of love.

A servant WHO speaks His Word, Praises Him, Glorifies His name on Earth, is THEN, considered a Friend of Jesus, among other things.

A happy Christmas to you too.
GG

Thank you,
God Bless,
Taken

Helen · Dec 23, 2018

GodsGrace said:
Agreed, except I'd say that a servant does out of fear...
a Friend does out of love.

A happy Christmas to you too.
GG

Good to see you!
You so often float on here and float off again and I don't even see you.

Hope all is well with you and the family...have a good Christmas.
God bless ...Helen x

H. Richard · Dec 23, 2018

GodsGrace said:
What happens if someone, somewhere along the walk with God, a person decides he no longer wants to serve God?

After knowing what sin is there is no way a person will return to trying to keep a law. It is only when the person knows he/she is sinful and knows they can not be otherwise, that they will seek out God (Jesus). The religious will only try to keep rules to be saved because they do not believe in Jesus.

H. Richard · Dec 23, 2018

quietthinker said:
brakelite.... it is the indifference if not the disinterest in righteousness from a personal heart level that that generates many of the preceding posts.
Faith in Jesus has become for them a thing to debate. Faith that does not generate a love for personal righteousness is immature if not a religious trip.

Still trying to be God.
Those that think it is their works that save them do not have faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

brakelite · Dec 23, 2018

And what is the motivation of those who falsely accuse others of using the law and their obedience to it as a means to salvation. Please share that with is.

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