The Lord's Prayer

charity said:

These words are repeated over and over, when they were intended as a guide only, at the request of the disciples and not as a command.

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1. We can assume that the Lord's Prayer was intended as a guide, but you will not find anything in Scripture that actually says so. I am in agreement with you, but we both are making a vaild assumption only.
2. "Not as a command" would mean failing to understand that any directive of Christ is indeed a command. And that is what we find in these words:
"After this manner therefore pray ye".

CoreIssue said:

As for which version of the prayer is correct, remember the Catholics added a lot of stuff to the Bible that carried over into the KJV.

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It is about time you stopped repeating this BLATANT LIE. Either study this matter properly, thoroughly, and carefully, or just remain silent.

All Protestant Bibles were created IN OPPOSITION TO Roman Catholic Bibles. Read The Translators to the Reader (preface to the KJV). The King James translators went directly to the printed Greek Textus Receptus (which was present in several editions at that time, although that of Stephanus 1550 ed was the primary one for the KJV), and to the printed Hebrew Rabbinic Bible Mikraot Gedolot (based upon the Masoretic Text, the traditional Hebrew text).

It is the Catholics who promoted Codex Vaticanus, (located in the Vatican) which became the foundation of the modern bible versions (along with Codex Sinaiticus). But the Reformers did not resort to these corrupt manuscripts. And that is also why the Lord's Prayer has been corrupted in modern bibles. They have all blatantly made several unacceptable changes to it.

Also, all Protestant Reformers recognized that the Apocrypha was not Scripture, but it was included in the early Protestant Bibles while being separated from the Old Testament (in contrast to the Catholic Bibles, which showed the apocryphal books as a part of the OT).

This may be a digression from the topic at hand, but you have repeated this lie over and over again, and that is totally unacceptable. Either get your facts straight, or plead ignorance.

charity said:

Actually @Nancy, I have never understood the reason for those. Do you know?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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It has been a very long time since I claimed Catholicism but, here is a snippet from a Catholic site: A rosary is divided into five sections, known as "decades," which consist of 10 beads each, and the idea is to pray your way around the entire strand. There are basically three steps to completing a decade: To begin, recite an Our Father prayer. Then, for each of the 10 beads, recite one Hail Mary. Once you finish all 10, conclude the decade with a Glory Be.
How Do Rosaries Actually Work?

Enoch111 said:

It is about time you stopped repeating this BLATANT LIE. Either study this matter properly, thoroughly, and carefully, or just remain silent.

All Protestant Bibles were created IN OPPOSITION TO Roman Catholic Bibles. Read The Translators to the Reader (preface to the KJV). The King James translators went directly to the printed Greek Textus Receptus (which was present in several editions at that time, although that of Stephanus 1550 ed was the primary one for the KJV), and to the printed Hebrew Rabbinic Bible Mikraot Gedolot (based upon the Masoretic Text, the traditional Hebrew text).

It is the Catholics who promoted Codex Vaticanus, (located in the Vatican) which became the foundation of the modern bible versions (along with Codex Sinaiticus). But the Reformers did not resort to these corrupt manuscripts. And that is also why the Lord's Prayer has been corrupted in modern bibles. They have all blatantly made several unacceptable changes to it.

Also, all Protestant Reformers recognized that the Apocrypha was not Scripture, but it was included in the early Protestant Bibles while being separated from the Old Testament (in contrast to the Catholic Bibles, which showed the apocryphal books as a part of the OT).

This may be a digression from the topic at hand, but you have repeated this lie over and over again, and that is totally unacceptable. Either get your facts straight, or plead ignorance.

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Does not change the fact that the KJV includes Easter which did not exist at the time and is a creation of Catholicism.

We live today, not in 1611.

We speak the English of today, not the archaic 1611 English.

And it is long proven the KJV includes versus and more that were never in the originals. But were added by the Catholics.

Yet you condemn such as the NIV and NASB using the KJV and the falsely named textus receptus as proof.

You do realize I hope textus receptus didn't exist until the 1500s.

Acts 12:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four a]">[a]squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.

Acts 12:4 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 a]">[a]And when he had caught him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to be kept, intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people.

Acts 12:4 Darby Translation (DARBY)
4 whom having seized he put in prison, having delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep, purposing after the passover to bring him out to the people.

Acts 12 - Coverdale Miles 1535 Bible

4. Now whan he had taken him, he put him in preson, and delyuered him vnto foure quaternions of soudyers, to kepe him: and thought after Easter to bringe him forth to the people.

Also based on the Textus Receptus.

I will kick in the Lord's prayer was instruction to the apostles on how to pray to the father since they could not pray to him while he was living.

We do not pray to the father.

Willie T said:

Anyone want to tackle the question of WHICH Lord's prayer is the one to follow? This one skips the "power & glory" ending.

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None!

It is the spiritual essence and 'manner' of what Jesus said...it was never intended to be a manual to follow.
Nothing is the bible is expected to be a ritual.
Ritual ends up as a dead religion...
5 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. " 2 Tim 3:5

But, I have a sneaky feeling that your post was 'tongue in cheek' and you knew that anyway.

Like most everything in Catholicism, the Rosary has pagan roots

https://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/sect54.htm

We knew that.

The true Lord's prayer is the entire chapter of John 17.

The popular one in Mt and Lk involves the all-Israel earthly kingdom, which has absolutely nothing to do with today's Gentiles

charity said:

* The prayer of Luke 11:1-4, lays out a format for prayer, it was not intended to be recited over and over and over, as it has been: either by those who believe in God and in the person and work of His precious Son; or by those who do not acknowledge the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ but go through the motions of religious rite for forms sake.

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Question:
WHO told you it wasn't supposed to be recited as a prayer?

CoreIssue said:

And yes the Bible says not to do repetitive prayers, etc, such as the Catholics do.

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WHERE does the Bible say NOT to pray repetitive prayers??

BreadOfLife said:

WHERE does the Bible say NOT to pray repetitive prayers??

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The repetitive prayers of the Catholics are the same said for decades. They do not come from the heart but from preprinted books.


Matthew 6:7-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

CoreIssue said:

The repetitive prayers of the Catholics are the same said for decades. They do not come from the heart but from preprinted books.


Matthew 6:7-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

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I figured you would say something as stupid and ignorant as this.
It's no WONDER your online forum died and you had to come here.
Time for a little Bible lesson . . .

“And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7).

Despite your Scriptural ignorance - the Bible does NOT speak out against repetitious prayers to God. What YOU fail to understand is that when Jesus made this statement in Matt. 6:7, he was speaking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods – not the sincere prayers of the faithful. We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances

- In Matt. 26:44, our Lord himself prayed the exact SAME prayer THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:-87, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

- In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This was pleasing to God.

- We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the SAME prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

- Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact SAME prayer, “God's love endures forever”.

- Similarly, in Dan. 3:56-88 we read the exact SAME prayer for 32 VERSES, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is far more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary.

Could ANY of these examples be considered the "vain repetitions" that Jesus spoke against? Get real.

When reading the Old Testament Scriptures, Jesus himself recited these prayers in repetition. Rom. 1:9, Rom. 12:12 and 1 Thess. 5:17 all command us to pray without ceasing.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

BreadOfLife said:

I figured you would say something as stupid and ignorant as this.
It's no WONDER your online forum died and you had to come here.
Time for a little Bible lesson . . .

“And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7).

Despite your Scriptural ignorance - the Bible does NOT speak out against repetitious prayers to God. What YOU fail to understand is that when Jesus made this statement in Matt. 6:7, he was speaking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods – not the sincere prayers of the faithful. We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances

- In Matt. 26:44, our Lord himself prayed the exact SAME prayer THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:-87, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

- In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” This was pleasing to God.

- We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the SAME prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

- Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact SAME prayer, “God's love endures forever”.

- Similarly, in Dan. 3:56-88 we read the exact SAME prayer for 32 VERSES, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is far more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary.

Could ANY of these examples be considered the "vain repetitions" that Jesus spoke against? Get real.

When reading the Old Testament Scriptures, Jesus himself recited these prayers in repetition. Rom. 1:9, Rom. 12:12 and 1 Thess. 5:17 all command us to pray without ceasing.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

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Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty Is not a prayer.

Constant praying is not the same thing as praying the same prayer over and over.

CoreIssue said:

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty Is not a prayer.

Constant praying is not the same thing as praying the same prayer over and over.

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It is WORSHIP, which is PRAYER.
Your rationalizations are duly noted.

Jesus prayed the EXACT SAME PRAYER - three times in the Garden.
Was this "vain repetition" or "paganism"??

BreadOfLife said:

It is WORSHIP, which is PRAYER.
Your rationalizations are duly noted.

Jesus prayed the EXACT SAME PRAYER - three times in the Garden.
Was this "vain repetition" or "paganism"??

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To pray means to talk to God. It can be worship, thanks, a request or whatever else.

Christ praying in the garden was a plea, not worship.

And it wasn't scripted like your Catholic prayers are.

CoreIssue said:

To pray means to talk to God. It can be worship, thanks, a request or whatever else.

Christ praying in the garden was a plea, not worship.

And it wasn't scripted like your Catholic prayers are.

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Whereas, prayer is NOT always worship - worship is ALWAYS prayer.

As for Christ's repetitious prayer in the Garden - the initial objection in this thread was NOT about written prayer - but about REPETITIOUS prayer. YOU are changing the rules because you got schooled by the Bible on the subject.

Now - I gave you SEVERAL Scriptural examples of repetitious prayer to show you the Protestant fallacy that Christ "condemns" repetitious prayer.
He does NOT. He condemned the repetitive babbling that the PAGANS did to their gods.

charity said:

'But when ye pray,
use not vain repetitions,
as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard
for their much speaking.'
(Mat 6:7)

It is interesting that the prayer in Matthew 6:9 is prefaced by the words above, which speaks against, 'vain repetitions', which is what is done with the Lord's prayer.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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HOW is reciting the Lord's Prayer a "vain" repetition??

WHO told you it wasn't supposed to be recited as a prayer?