Jack Van Impe preaching=Jesus is about to Return!!

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Enoch111

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No natural reading of Daniel 9 would leave someone going "ah ha! there must be a gap there!"
No one should read Daniel 9 (or any part of Daniel) without consulting the New Testament prophecies (and narratives). And that is how a gap is found between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel.

When Christ mentioned the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24, He also told us "let the reader understand" ("whoso readeth let him understand"). Which meant that we have a duty to understand Daniel in the light of all NT revelations. But that does not generally happen.

What happened very early on (beginning with Augustine) is that many erroneous ideas about eschatology were introduced into Christendom, and now Christians follow these false interpretations and get confused. All the Reformed churches follows Roman Catholic eschatology and Replacement Theology. On top of that the Reformers identified the Pope as the Antichrist, which led to even more confusion.

We have one person right now who cannot distinguish between "Messiah the Prince" and "the prince that shall come" (Dan 9:25-27), even though they are plainly contrasted. Then we have Preterists telling us that "everlasting righteousness" (Dan 9:24) has already been established on earth when all that we see around us is increasing sin and evil.

Christians should have already seen a gap when they read Acts 1:6-8:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The apostles were going by the OT prophecies regarding the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. But they did not realize that many of the prophets spoke of the first and second coming of Christ as though they are all one and the same event. Obviously, they were not even aware of the Church Age, since the Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed to Paul.

So now Christ introduced the Church Age by telling the apostles to go and preach the Gospel throughout the world. But He did not tell them that His Kingdom would be established on earth AFTER the Church had been completed. That is what Paul revealed to us in Romans 11:25,26:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And after that we have 2 Thessalonians 2 and the entire book of Revelation to show us that the first half of the 70th week of Daniel will include the reign of the Antichrist, which will be for 3 1/2 years (42 months or 1260 days or a time, times, and half a time).

That will be followed by the Great Tribulation during the second half of that week of seven years, yet it will be cut short as Christ prophesied, and as is already revealed in Daniel 8 (when he speaks of 2300 days, and the SDA's make that into 2300 years! to add to the confusion).


Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan 8:13,14)

2300/360 = 6.39 years = 6 years + 4.7 months = 6 yrs + 4 months + 21 days. That reduces the last 3 1/2 years by 1 month and 9 days.
 
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Taken

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Phoneman777 ~ continued

QUOTE]which military/intelligence arm is the Jesuit Order.[/QUOTE]

So the Roman Catholics set up a "special Order of Priests"? And "those special Order of Priest have a particular MISSION" ?

Why do I care what the Roman Catholics did And particularly, according to you?

They were NOT a military unit.
The guy with the IDEA of proposal for a "special Order of Priests", himself, personally Was a Roman Catholic, with a military background. He did not propose a "military Order of Roman Catholics...to the Pope".

If one is so inclined to KNOW precisely what was proposed to the Pope, read the individuals proposal.

If one is so inclined to KNOW what the Pope agreed to, read THAT Popes own declaration of agreement.

If you have access to Neither, Read what this "special Group of Roman Priests" were called, and WHAT an "individual" Roman Catholic HAD TO DO, to become "recognized as a Jesuit Priest"...(it wasn't a simply declaration, and usually not obtained by the individual for YEARS, before a confirmation for one to have that title), and then Research what "INDIVIDUAL" Jesuit Priests DID....and what you WOULD FIND, is their PRIMARY WORK, was Establishing "missionaries, schools, colleges, universities, libraries".....SPECIFIC to Catholic Teachings....
And WHEN, SOME Jusuit Priests HAD NO OBJECTION, to "such established, colleges, universities, etc.) INCLUDING OTHER religious teachings......FUTURE elected/appointed Popes, DID OBJECT and CRITICIZED particular Jesuit Priests, for INCLUDING "other religious teachings", IN places "established" (colleges, universities, etc.) BY Jesuit Priests.

THE OBJECTION of the "newer Popes" CAUSED, "Certain Jesuit Priests" the Popes criticism....AND Caused PARTICULAR Nations, with Strict adherence TO THE POPE....to LIMIT "colleges and universities, etc"...TO EXPRESSLY Catholic Teaching..

SOME counties, Enforced the LIMITS...such as England, France Spain for example....However NOT ALL countries Enforced the LIMITS...such as the US.

Thus ANY institution of education, set up by a Jesuit Priest in the US, was NOT LIMITED to Roman Catholic Doctrine Only. And ANY person, Roman Catholic, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Islam, WHATEVER, could ENROLL and ATTENT "Jusiut Priest's" "Established" learning institutions...without BEING exclusively ROMAN CATHOLIC ADHERENTS.

Any STUDENT of such institution certainly would be introduced to some Catholic Doctrine, but DOES NOT MEAN, they had to, or did Become a Catholic.

...which military/intelligence arm is the Jesuit Order....
That would be naive to say no.

Naive to say no? You mean, native to not agree with you, because YOU say so?

Provide the FACTS, that every Jesuit Priest, was a military personal and their mission was to establish "out posts", or place of some sort to train others in military knowledge, on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church.

(But his "proof" texts simply are no proof at all).

Jack's Educational Background "proves" nothing revealing he attended or was trained in Jesuit Priests teachings, military, or otherwise.

Why are you concerned about defending Jack?

Well, that's the thing. The ONLY thing that makes this whole conversation about Jack, is his name appearing in the OP. And some people's ideas to "proclaim" Jacks teaching "COMES from him being subjected to others' teaching and him adopting the others teaching."

Personally, I do not care WHO the individual person is...(here on this post it just happens to be Jack)...

And there happens to be a COUPLE of People MAKING CLAIMS "FOR JACK", that NONE of the People making those claims, can PROVIDE ONE IOTA of JACK himself making those claims, ABOUT himself.

FOR Example....you, me, another person could CLAIM for themselves..."belief that Jesus was a Prophet"....

And when another third party comes along and say....ooooh, aahaaa...y'all must be MUSLIMS, or Islamic adherents, or on the level with Muslims, or in tight with the Muslims.........because that is what THEY PREACH. For sure, for sure, y'all MUST have gotten your Belief from Muslims, because THEY have taught that for a LONG time.

Ya, Well, I would STAND UP AGAINST those third party claimants also.

You call it a DEFENCE. I call it standing up against what is NOT RIGHT.

How about you concern yourself with contending for "the faith once delivered to the saints"

How about noticing, I do STAND UP for what IS RIGHT IN CHRIST.....

I can not MAKE you notice. But I can challenge you for claiming THAT IS WHAT I NEED TO DO....when it is already been revealed, that IS WHAT I DO.

which was Protestant Historicism, not Jesuit Futurism.

WAIT...Your favor is NAME TAGS....not my favorite thing. You are dictating, whom I should stand for and whom I should stand against.

Jesus' Preaching...THAT I choose to stand WITH....is that I stand in Agreement WITH, and IN God, and IN Christ Jesus...and stand with ISRAEL.
Jesus mentioned nothing to me ABOUT, Protestants or Catholics or Jesuits.
And I do not search out Protestants or Catholics or Jesuits TO FOLLOW, or TO BE my teachers.

Some names serve an important purpose.

Sure "names" serve a purpose....DIVISION.

I call Bread of Life "Dead Bread"

That is your perrogrative. However the TERM "Bread of Life", Specifically refers to Christ Jesus.

John 6
[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
[48] I am that bread of life.

Thus, I would Disagree with you.

because I want everyone to be constantly reminded that there is absolutely no power whatsoever in the "Eucharist", though the church turned millions over to the state for execution because they refused to acknowledge the catholic church's claim that it had such power.

Again, I would disagree with your "BeCAUSE of reasoning", not being in agreement with Scripture.
Nor would i agree with what the "state" did.

And there you can refer back to the particular states (nations) that also rejected Jesuit Priests, and anyone else, who disagree with the Pope....who was WITHIN those particular states (nations) jurisdiction, for them to ACT according to "their states laws", to kill people who would NOT yield to the states position of religious doctrine.

Clarified in another post that I don't mean he's Jesuit, but that he preaches a Jesuit doctrine.

Jack claims to PREACH BIBLICAL DOCTRINE...
Why are not his own claims sufficient? Why associate him with Jesuit Priests?

Would you want others to associate you with Muslims or the Qur'an, as your source, your agreement, Because both you and a muslim can agree Jesus was a Prophet?

Would it really be necessary or truthful to associate you with "THEM", because you have a common point of agreement?

Do mean to tell me that as a fan of Impe,

First of all, Why are YOU declaring me a "FAN" of Jack's? Did I say that? No.
So why are YOU saying that FOR ME?

you've never heard his "proof" texts for his Jesuit doctrine? Good gravy, his "proof" for a future 7 year tribulation is to transport the last Week of Daniel's 70 to the end of time...that's textbook Jesuit Francisco Ribera!

I have heard Jack's preaching on occasion.
I've watched Golf, fishing, Baptists, Catholics, Cooking, on occasion too...doesn't make me a FAN of any of those things.

IF Jack were "using PROOF TEXTS" of Jesuit Doctrinal Texts.......I would EXPECT Jack to MENTION a Jesuit's Doctrinal Texts....but, Truthfully, I have ONLY Heard Jack mention, Biblical Doctrinal Texts as his Sources.

It is comical to me...that people decide hey, the ONLY ones to have this revelation to a Seven Year Tribulation....was Jesuit Priests...
And ANYONE who believes in a Seven Year Tribulation Period....surely must have learned that or be somehow connected to Jesuit Priests.....

To heck with the individual person claiming "their" source is Biblical Scripture...

Personally I believe there WILL Be a Great Tribulation Period of TIME, that has not been, So great, since the great flood. I also believe, the time of the great flood, and times of its length was revealed in Scripture. I also believe there SHALL be a Specific Great Tribulation and it's TIME length revealed....
According to Biblical Scripture....regardless if others believed the same and taught it and have a "special" title attached to their "identity"! It doesn't make them, my source, or them my teachers.

To IMPLY otherwise is fraud, which is the same fraud being perpetuated upon Jack.

I do not care, WHO the person is....I do not agree with Fraud being perpetuated upon anyone...friend or foe.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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I admit I got lost your post after the third line and stopped reading. How about you just stick to defending your claim that I'm wrong about Jack preaching Jesuit Futurism ("Futurism" if that suits you better).

Jack is not on this forum.

You are free to accuse and slander and associate him with whomever you please.

And if you convince others your words are sufficient, maybe they will join you in accusation, slander and association, and reject Jacks teaching, and BE like you.

Until you provide Jacks own claims, with his own words claiming for himself, what YOU claim FOR HIM, I will stick with you are wrong.

Then YOU can carry the burden of proving, YOUR claims ABOUT HIM, are true, based on his own claims he has made ABOUT himself.

Tell me if you would, where does Jack stand on the Little Horn, the 70 Weeks, the Two Witnesses, the time of the arrival of Antichrist, etc.??????

Why? I already have. But a 5 minute read is too much for you. That is also how I view an Atheist. "Just give me the "short" version, geesh, who needs all those facts that lead up to why."

Tell me if you would, where does Jack stand

With Biblical Scripture.


the Little Horn, the 70 Weeks, the Two Witnesses, the time of the arrival of Antichrist, etc.??????

With Biblical Scripture AND Gods understanding....

Which....hint, hint....Biblical Scripture is a very lengthy read...and Gods understanding only comes from God to an individual committed To God, through Christ Jesus.

Might be too long of a read to capture your attention.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Phoneman777

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No one should read Daniel 9 (or any part of Daniel) without consulting the New Testament prophecies (and narratives). And that is how a gap is found between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel. When Christ mentioned the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24, He also told us "let the reader understand" ("whoso readeth let him understand"). Which meant that we have a duty to understand Daniel in the light of all NT revelations. But that does not generally happen.

What happened very early on (beginning with Augustine) is that many erroneous ideas about eschatology were introduced into Christendom, and now Christians follow these false interpretations and get confused. All the Reformed churches follows Roman Catholic eschatology and Replacement Theology. On top of that the Reformers identified the Pope as the Antichrist, which led to even more confusion.

We have one person right now who cannot distinguish between "Messiah the Prince" and "the prince that shall come" (Dan 9:25-27), even though they are plainly contrasted. Then we have Preterists telling us that "everlasting righteousness" (Dan 9:24) has already been established on earth when all that we see around us is increasing sin and evil.

Christians should have already seen a gap when they read Acts 1:6-8:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The apostles were going by the OT prophecies regarding the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. But they did not realize that many of the prophets spoke of the first and second coming of Christ as though they are all one and the same event. Obviously, they were not even aware of the Church Age, since the Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed to Paul.

So now Christ introduced the Church Age by telling the apostles to go and preach the Gospel throughout the world. But He did not tell them that His Kingdom would be established on earth AFTER the Church had been completed. That is what Paul revealed to us in Romans 11:25,26:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And after that we have 2 Thessalonians 2 and the entire book of Revelation to show us that the first half of the 70th week of Daniel will include the reign of the Antichrist, which will be for 3 1/2 years (42 months or 1260 days or a time, times, and half a time).

That will be followed by the Great Tribulation during the second half of that week of seven years, yet it will be cut short as Christ prophesied, and as is already revealed in Daniel 8 (when he speaks of 2300 days, and the SDA's make that into 2300 years! to add to the confusion).


Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan 8:13,14)

2300/360 = 6.39 years = 6 years + 4.7 months = 6 yrs + 4 months + 21 days. That reduces the last 3 1/2 years by 1 month and 9 days.
There isn't a single instance in all of Scripture where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy inserts a "gap" in the numeric timeline. Common sense tells us why...because doing so would make the numerically specific duration LONGER than what is numerically specified! God would have called it the "70 Weeks plus 2,000 years of Daniel" prophecy. He didn't. He called it the "70 Weeks", period.

It's like telling the wife, "I'll meet you back here at Bed, Bath, and Beyond A Man's Ability To Remain Sane store in 60 minutes", a nice numerically specific period of time, right? Then you show up 2 hours later...

"Where in the name of all that is candle and satin goodness have you been for the last hour??!!" and you reply, "Oh, I forgot to tell you, between the 59th and 60th minute there was a "one hour gap". Ludicrous, but that supposed to be considered "Biblical hermeneutics"?
 

Phoneman777

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Jack is not on this forum.
Uh, Jack Van Impe is in the title...but let's review:

You posted a thread singing the praises of JVE.
I, and others, pointed out that JVE is a bit off in his interpretations with me saying he preaches Jesuit Futurist ideas.
You said I was wrong...

OK, can we pick it up from here?
 

Enoch111

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There isn't a single instance in all of Scripture where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy inserts a "gap" in the numeric timeline.
Well in the case of the 70th week of Daniel there is a gap.

If there was no gap then we would see everlasting righteousness all around us. Which means that this would be the New Earth *wherein dwelleth righteousness*. No sin, no sinners, no evil, no evildoers, no death, no enmity between animals, perfect peace, and perfect righteousness, perfect holiness.

You would be hard pressed to fantasize that scenario today.
 

Taken

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Uh, Jack Van Impe is in the title...but let's review:

You posted a thread singing the praises of JVE.

I did not post ONE mention of singing or praising JVE.

You do not even get "the POINT."

I, and others, pointed out that JVE is a bit off in his interpretations

That is CORRECT. It is called you and a few others have expressed Disagreement with "WHAT" JVI preaches.

So? Who cares? I don't. I don't care who you or anyone else Agrees with or doesn't.

with me saying he preaches Jesuit Futurist ideas.

Now ... the SAME who expresses DISAGREEMENT with JVI....MAKE their disagreement HOW?

Calling him names? Yep
Declaring his allegiance with other religious fractions? Yep

HOW do I know this? By reading what others HAVE SAID.

You said I was wrong...

Absolutely. As well as others.

Calling another names, simply shows one to be a name-caller. It does not, reveal ANY indication of WHY they Disagree with JVI.

"OTHERS" Associating JVI's NAME with OTHERS, is for what?

IOW, what is the POINT, of "you or others" associating JVI's NAME....with Catholics, with Baptists, with Jesuit Priests ?

Is that, SUPPOSED to "reveal" yours or anyone else's DISAGREEMENT with JVI?

How so would that be?

IF a person DISAGREES with JVI's teaching, why talk about everything else, but PRECISELY what JVI has said, and what PRECISELY what the other person Disagrees with?

Why the name calling and going off on a tangent of what OTHER people have taught?

So far, Dave apparently does not AGREE with Baptists and Catholics and SO, simply "associated JVI with them"... and THAT becomes Dave's reasoning for not agreeing with Jack...

LAME, and VOID of any proof, Jack is in "allegience" with Baptists or Catholics.

And you, apparently do not AGREE with Jesuit Priests Teaching and SO, you "simply associated JVI with them"....and THAT becomes Your reasoning for not agreeing with Jack...

GET IT? Who cares what Baptists, Catholics or Jesuit Preists Taught or Teach?

IF YOU can not refrain from "INCLUDING" other religious sects in association WITH Jack, then FIRST PROVE there is an "allegience" between Jack, and whomever you INCLUDE.

IF you DISAGREE with JVI's TEACHING...
THEN QUOTE HIM, and voice your disagreement and Why....

Because telling what "other" groups have taught, have NOTHING to do with Jack, IF HE HIMSELF is not "in allegience" with the other group.....and IMPLYING by association, that he IS in allegience with THEM...IS WRONG.


OK, can we pick it up from here?

Sure, as soon as you provide ANY proof that Jack has revealed He preaches from Jesuit Doctrine.

IOW, YOU connected Jack to the Jesuits...
Reveal any proof Jack connected himself to the Jesuits.

Or leave your disagreement with Jesuit Priests out of the conversation, and get on with the Point of your disagreement with something JVI himself has said.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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There isn't a single instance in all of Scripture where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy inserts a "gap" in the numeric timeline. Common sense tells us why...because doing so would make the numerically specific duration LONGER than what is numerically specified! God would have called it the "70 Weeks plus 2,000 years of Daniel" prophecy. He didn't. He called it the "70 Weeks", period.

Gap, is a Scriptural word, denoting a time of separating WHAT SHOULD be holy, from what is not holy....and Gods Reaction.

Ezek.13
[1] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
[3] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
[4] O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
[5] Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
[6] They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
[7] Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
[8] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Several times there HAVE BEEN "GAPS" whereby "JEWS" were being brought back INTO obedience to God, and then AGAIN wandered off.....WHICH IS A GAP....
A significant portion of TIME, a majority of the JEWS, deflect from God. AND GOD?
Drags them back? No, God leaves them to their own ways, and allows them to be subject to the persecution of Gentiles....
And then Again after the Jews (at large) again begin calling on God....GOD AGAIN comes to them in Spirit, in Protection, in Prosperity, etc.

Before Jesus arrived, the Jews were exiled out of Israel....and then gradually returned to Israel....AND? Built a Temple. And follow the history....
Priests caring for the Temple?
Jews treating their wives in a holy fashion?
Jews tithing, making offerings to the Temple?
Jews marrying only Jews?
Jews adopting Greek customs?
Jews Temple desecrated?

Finally, Jews being under the Romans?
Descendants of Esau, become the Jews, Overseers, Politically and Spiritually....whereas Remember...God has appointed Moses line politically and Arron's line spiritually over Gods People?

THAT was a GAP, where men were allow to rule over the Jews...and the Temple desecrated by Gentiles...That was also when the Sanhedrin and Pharisees and Synogogs were put into place.

"Between" the time of Malachi and the coming of the Messiah, several prophecies were fulfilled...but some were not.
The Jews had not come back into compliance with the God, that THEY would be Prepared for the Coming APPEARENCE of the Messiah.

One prophecy of Daniel was FULFILLED...
the 2,300 days of desecration between 171 and 165 B.C. (Daniel 8:14).

So Jesus comes on Scene....and WHAT?
A handful of Jews can even believe in the Concept their Messiah has Arrived to SAVE them.

Of the MANY Jews that were taught by Jesus' disciples and DID Believe, found it TOO HARD, to live in Faith in Jesus, and be daily living in the same communities with Gentiles, especially Gentiles with Power, who did not Believe in Jesus.

So today, what DO MOST OF THE JEWS still in and around the Middle East Believe? OT Scripture. And daily have Gentiles coming Against them. "THERE IS STILL A GAP" for the majority of Jews, in effect for 2,000 + years, they NOT YET by the majority having obeyed God and Believed in Christ Jesus.
(Not to ignore some Messanic Jews who have accepted Christ Jesus as their Messiah and Savior)...

God expressly revealed...
Prophecy concering Faithful OT men.
AND
Heb 1:[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...

Well, IF someone is NOT LISTENING and Believing and DOING....THEY ARE in a "GAP", distanced from Gods Son.

TWO things you should know by observance, and belief in Christ Jesus and God.

1) God will NOT Leave the Jews who BELIEVE IN God behind.
2) The Jews are NOT majority in belief IN Jesus being the Christ Messiah.
3) God has already revealed HIS plan of When and How and Why the Jews will be in Agreement with Christ Jesus being the Messiah.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Naomi25

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No one should read Daniel 9 (or any part of Daniel) without consulting the New Testament prophecies (and narratives). And that is how a gap is found between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel.

When Christ mentioned the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24, He also told us "let the reader understand" ("whoso readeth let him understand"). Which meant that we have a duty to understand Daniel in the light of all NT revelations. But that does not generally happen.

What happened very early on (beginning with Augustine) is that many erroneous ideas about eschatology were introduced into Christendom, and now Christians follow these false interpretations and get confused. All the Reformed churches follows Roman Catholic eschatology and Replacement Theology. On top of that the Reformers identified the Pope as the Antichrist, which led to even more confusion.

Well...let's just hang on a moment here. Theoretically, what you say is great, and I fully agree. But the problem is...those of us who hold to covenant theology, rather than dispensationalism, do that. We read the OT in light of the NT, and that's the very thing that gets us "in trouble" with you lot, and leads to accusations of "replacement theology" and of being in step with the RCC and such.

Because when we consider the OT in light of the NT, then we have to consider the passages that say this:


Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”...
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. -Matthew 21:37–41, 43



Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. -Matthew 22:4–10

These string of parables clearly show Christ judging Israel and rejecting those that reject him. The language is harsh and absolute. But then we see something in Romans that suggests all is not lost of the Jewish people:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. -Romans 11:17–20

Some were broken off because of unbelief, but we were grafted in because of belief. Belief in what? In Christ Jesus. This is unequivocally saying that Gentiles are bound to Christ with the elect Jews...true Israel, and the Jews who do not believe are cut off. But we can find more proof that just because one was Jewish, does not make them automatically "chosen".

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

Paul is so very clearly here putting all of the Abrahamic promises on Jesus here. Jewish people found in Christ may expect to recieve these promises, just as we can, who are also found in him. But if, like you said, we are reading the OT through the NT...as Paul is here, we must reorient even the covenantal promises. They shift from Israel the Nation to Christ the Head, the root of Israel:

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.-2 Corinthians 1:20

So...I suppose you could call me a little confuses that you would point out the importance of such a hermeneutical stance, and yet by and large dispensationalists flat out object when we do just that about Israel and the covenant promises, even though it's all right there, clear as a bell.


We have one person right now who cannot distinguish between "Messiah the Prince" and "the prince that shall come" (Dan 9:25-27), even though they are plainly contrasted. Then we have Preterists telling us that "everlasting righteousness" (Dan 9:24) has already been established on earth when all that we see around us is increasing sin and evil.

Actually, It's quite a feasible suggestion, and I've heard the passage exegeted quite soundly that way. Christ did, rather resoundingly, make both a covenant with many...in his blood, and also put a stop to sacrificies. God's judgement upon Israel and Jerusalem in 70AD, while carried out by Rome, is still recognized by most biblical scholars to have been a judgement. And it did put an end to sacrifices...no temple, no sacrifices.

Christians should have already seen a gap when they read Acts 1:6-8:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The apostles were going by the OT prophecies regarding the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. But they did not realize that many of the prophets spoke of the first and second coming of Christ as though they are all one and the same event. Obviously, they were not even aware of the Church Age, since the Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed to Paul.
Okay...I'm trying to get a good grasp on what you are saying here. So...basically, your saying that according to Daniel, if there was no gaps, then Christ should have "restored the Kingdom" then? But the fact that he doesn't, the fact that he goes back to heaven and time stretches on into the Church age...that's what you are saying is very clearly a gap?


So now Christ introduced the Church Age by telling the apostles to go and preach the Gospel throughout the world. But He did not tell them that His Kingdom would be established on earth AFTER the Church had been completed. That is what Paul revealed to us in Romans 11:25,26:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And after that we have 2 Thessalonians 2 and the entire book of Revelation to show us that the first half of the 70th week of Daniel will include the reign of the Antichrist, which will be for 3 1/2 years (42 months or 1260 days or a time, times, and half a time).

That will be followed by the Great Tribulation during the second half of that week of seven years, yet it will be cut short as Christ prophesied, and as is already revealed in Daniel 8 (when he speaks of 2300 days, and the SDA's make that into 2300 years! to add to the confusion).


Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan 8:13,14)

2300/360 = 6.39 years = 6 years + 4.7 months = 6 yrs + 4 months + 21 days. That reduces the last 3 1/2 years by 1 month and 9 days.
Wow...that seems...very complicated.
May I ask a question? When Jesus told his disciples that they were to forgive 70 times 7...what did he mean?
 

farouk

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Well...let's just hang on a moment here. Theoretically, what you say is great, and I fully agree. But the problem is...those of us who hold to covenant theology, rather than dispensationalism, do that. We read the OT in light of the NT, and that's the very thing that gets us "in trouble" with you lot, and leads to accusations of "replacement theology" and of being in step with the RCC and such.

Because when we consider the OT in light of the NT, then we have to consider the passages that say this:


Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”...
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. -Matthew 21:37–41, 43



Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. -Matthew 22:4–10

These string of parables clearly show Christ judging Israel and rejecting those that reject him. The language is harsh and absolute. But then we see something in Romans that suggests all is not lost of the Jewish people:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. -Romans 11:17–20

Some were broken off because of unbelief, but we were grafted in because of belief. Belief in what? In Christ Jesus. This is unequivocally saying that Gentiles are bound to Christ with the elect Jews...true Israel, and the Jews who do not believe are cut off. But we can find more proof that just because one was Jewish, does not make them automatically "chosen".

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

Paul is so very clearly here putting all of the Abrahamic promises on Jesus here. Jewish people found in Christ may expect to recieve these promises, just as we can, who are also found in him. But if, like you said, we are reading the OT through the NT...as Paul is here, we must reorient even the covenantal promises. They shift from Israel the Nation to Christ the Head, the root of Israel:

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.-2 Corinthians 1:20

So...I suppose you could call me a little confuses that you would point out the importance of such a hermeneutical stance, and yet by and large dispensationalists flat out object when we do just that about Israel and the covenant promises, even though it's all right there, clear as a bell.




Actually, It's quite a feasible suggestion, and I've heard the passage exegeted quite soundly that way. Christ did, rather resoundingly, make both a covenant with many...in his blood, and also put a stop to sacrificies. God's judgement upon Israel and Jerusalem in 70AD, while carried out by Rome, is still recognized by most biblical scholars to have been a judgement. And it did put an end to sacrifices...no temple, no sacrifices.


Okay...I'm trying to get a good grasp on what you are saying here. So...basically, your saying that according to Daniel, if there was no gaps, then Christ should have "restored the Kingdom" then? But the fact that he doesn't, the fact that he goes back to heaven and time stretches on into the Church age...that's what you are saying is very clearly a gap?



Wow...that seems...very complicated.
May I ask a question? When Jesus told his disciples that they were to forgive 70 times 7...what did he mean?
I don't see the church in the Old Testament at all...
 

Marymog

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Jack Van Impe preaching=Jesus is about to Return!!
Google=="" Jack Van Impe Presents — December 22, 2018 ""
Jack is sooooo old he was talked about in scripture.

1 John 4:1-6
1 John 4:1
Matthew 7:15
2 Peter 2:1
Matthew 24:24
Romans 16:18
Mark 7:6-9

Mary
 

Enoch111

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But the problem is...those of us who hold to covenant theology, rather than dispensationalism, do that.
Naomi,
If you wish to obtain clarity in this matter, let's just set aside the various theologies, and stick with Scripture.

1. Let's deal with Israel first. As far as Christ and the apostles were concerned, Israel was never confused with *the nations* (the Gentiles) or the Church, and was always seen as the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev 7 and the prophecy of Ezekiel).

2. Unbelieving Israel was severely judged by God after the crucifixion of Christ, as you have already noted. Those were the branches which were broken off from the *good olive tree* of believing Israel.

3. However that did not nullify the Abrahamic Covenant, and here is where you are confused (as I already pointed out in another thread). When you quote Galatians 3:16, you should also quote Romans 11:26-32:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


This passage by itself REFUTES REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

But in order to understand what Paul is saying you will need to go back to Genesis and study all the passages related to the Abrahamic Covenant. what you will discover is that the *seed* or *seeds* has THREE applications: (1) Christ, (2) all believers who are justified by grace through faith (just like Abraham), and (3) the twelve tribes of redeemed and restored Israel in *greater Israel* (stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates). Most Christians have been taught to ignore the last application but Paul refutes that in Rom 11:26-32.
Wow...that seems...very complicated.
There is nothing complicated when you fit all the pieces together. But if you start off with false premises, you will end up with false conclusions. Unless you are prepared to deal honestly with the fact that EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS has not been established on earth as yet, you will never understand the meaning of Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. And unless you fit both the Christ and Antichrist into that prophecy (taking all relevant prophecies into account) you will continue to be confused and find this complicated.
May I ask a question? When Jesus told his disciples that they were to forgive 70 times 7...what did he mean?
Exactly what He said. And the teaching applied to the "brother" of that person.
 

Phoneman777

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Gap, is a Scriptural word, denoting a time of separating WHAT SHOULD be holy, from what is not holy....and Gods Reaction.
There isn't a single instance in all of Scripture where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy inserts a "gap" in the numeric timeline. Common sense tells us why...because doing so would make the numerically specific duration LONGER than what is numerically specified! God would have called it the "70 Weeks plus 2,000 years of Daniel" prophecy. He didn't. He called it the "70 Weeks", period.
 
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Enoch111

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Common sense tells us why...
When we replace common sense with spiritual sense, it all comes together.

Do you know what the key is to unlocking this prophecy?

Dan 9:24, and most of which will be fulfilled in the future.

1. Seventy weeks are determined = 490 years

2. upon thy people = the Jews

3.and upon thy holy city = Jerusalem

4. to finish the transgression = terminate the desecration of Jerusalem and the temple

5. and to make an end of sins = terminate sinfulness within Israel, through its redemption and restoration

6. and to make reconciliation for iniquity = to unify the kingdoms of Judah and Israel as one Millennial kingdom under David and Christ

7. and to bring in everlasting righteousness = upon earth through the New Heavens and the New Earth after the Millennium

8. and to seal up the vision and prophecy = to fulfill all the prophecies in Scripture regarding Christ and the Kingdom of God

9. and to anoint the most Holy = to establish a pure and holy eternal temple in Jerusalem
 

Naomi25

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Naomi,
If you wish to obtain clarity in this matter, let's just set aside the various theologies, and stick with Scripture.

1. Let's deal with Israel first. As far as Christ and the apostles were concerned, Israel was never confused with *the nations* (the Gentiles) or the Church, and was always seen as the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev 7 and the prophecy of Ezekiel).
Well...it was you who sort of brought up the differing theologies, but sure, okay, I'm all for sticking to scripture!

I'm not sure when I intimated that Christ or the apostles confused Israel with the Gentiles, but I agree...for all that they argue for combining the elect into one, there still seems to be, for the sake of argument in Paul's letters, for instance, a deliniation between "Israel" and "Gentile".
However, I'm not sure I can agree that when you start using phrases like "the Church" that you can make similar claims. After all, the Church began as mostly Jewish. It was the elect Jewish believers who went out from Jerusalem and gathered in Gentile believers into the Church. Here the line blurs and they become one in Christ...the elect.
But what then of the distinction between Jew and Gentile? We look at that more in your points 2 and 3...

2. Unbelieving Israel was severely judged by God after the crucifixion of Christ, as you have already noted. Those were the branches which were broken off from the *good olive tree* of believing Israel.
Yes. And there had to have been some consequence of this "breaking off". What did it mean to be cut off from the root? To not be "elect"? You touch on it in your question 3..


3. However that did not nullify the Abrahamic Covenant, and here is where you are confused (as I already pointed out in another thread). When you quote Galatians 3:16, you should also quote Romans 11:26-32:


This passage by itself REFUTES REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

No one says the Abrahamic covenant has been nullified, least of all that passage. If you read that passage and the Galatians passage, you understand the consequences of being removed from the root, and what the blessings of being grafted onto it are.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace...
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.” -Romans 11:1-5; 7–8


But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

It's simple: The Abrahamic promises were, in point of fact, made to Christ. So says Paul in Galatians 3:16. He is very clear.
And then he tells us in Romans 9:6-8 that not all Jews are true 'children of the promise', but only those who are, essentially, those who are in Christ...the elect.
So when we come to passages like Romans 11:1-8 we understand that the consequences for 'national Israel'...those Jews who do not believe in Jesus, those who have been "cut off", is that they are no longer heirs to the Abrahamic promises. In the OT, they had a claim because of their blood. But when Christ came, as the true heir, the rightful heir, and made that claim justly by dying and raising to life, anyone hoping to share that claim must be in him. Else you are removed from his root.
The initial promise, however, is not 'nullified'...there are many Jews who are "in Christ", sharing that promise, so, as Paul says "it is not as if God's word had failed" (Rom 9:6), and it is perfectly fulfilled in Christ himself, who is also a Jew.
And we can also see in Romans 11 that God is not yet done with the rest of the Jewish people, who he hardened for a time, for a specific purpose...the grace and acceptance of the Gentiles into the circle of the elect...into the "children of promise", is to move the Jewish people to jealousy, and thus bring them back to God!


So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! -Romans 11:11–12

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. -Romans 11:23

This mystery is so wondrous, that Paul breaks into praise!

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. -Romans 11:33–36


But in order to understand what Paul is saying you will need to go back to Genesis and study all the passages related to the Abrahamic Covenant. what you will discover is that the *seed* or *seeds* has THREE applications: (1) Christ, (2) all believers who are justified by grace through faith (just like Abraham), and (3) the twelve tribes of redeemed and restored Israel in *greater Israel* (stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates). Most Christians have been taught to ignore the last application but Paul refutes that in Rom 11:26-32.
See, here's the problem with number 3. You say that the OT must be read through the NT, and yet when you get to your number 3, you don't do that, you jettison everything the NT has taught in favour of keeping what you think the OT has said about Israel and what she is owed. Your points 1 and 2 and the scriptures that support them, don't lead us to believe that number 3 must have a literal fulfillment. Where is the NT scripture saying it? You say Rom 11:26-32, but what Paul is saying here is just more of what he is saying in Romans 11 full stop. That should the rest of the Jewish nation come to Jesus Christ, they will be saved. There is nothing...nothing that says that they will be welcomed back to God by reinstating old covenant practices or a different covenant than the other Christ believers. No...Paul's clear point is that the ONLY way for men to be saved, is through Christ Jesus. Through being grafted back onto the root. Which means becoming a part of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ...the elect...the Church.
There is a strong case to be made from Romans 11 that large numbers of Jewish people will do just that. But to make a case for what the Dispensationalists say will happen to the Jewish nation? Different plan, different place, different everything? That actually goes against Galatians 3:16 and Romans 9:6-8 and every other verse that talks about Christ being the only way to God and also the verses that talk about those in Christ becoming one.

There is nothing complicated when you fit all the pieces together. But if you start off with false premises, you will end up with false conclusions. Unless you are prepared to deal honestly with the fact that EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS has not been established on earth as yet, you will never understand the meaning of Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. And unless you fit both the Christ and Antichrist into that prophecy (taking all relevant prophecies into account) you will continue to be confused and find this complicated.
I'm not aware of saying that everlasting righteousness had been established on earth already.
And I'm not finding the prophecy complicated, only the Dispensationalists explinations of it.

Exactly what He said. And the teaching applied to the "brother" of that person.

My point is this: Jesus clearly is using numbers symbolically here.
 

Taken

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There isn't a single instance in all of Scripture where a Numerically Specific Time Prophecy inserts a "gap" in the numeric timeline.

Common sense tells us why...because doing so would make the numerically specific duration LONGER than what is numerically specified! God would have called it the "70 Weeks plus 2,000 years of Daniel" prophecy. He didn't. He called it the "70 Weeks", period.

Wait...

Sounds like you are defining GAP as a number of missing years?

Is that correct?

If not, could you define what GAP means to you?

Happy New Year,
Glory to God,
Taken
 

07-07-07

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How is it that people can't recognize the signs of the times!??? Everything that Jesus talked about is unfolding before our eyes! Repent of your unbelief!
 
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07-07-07

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Jack says Jesus will return in the clouds any day now. Along with the rapture,then the years of the great tribulation and anti-christ rule followed by the return of Jesus (with the raptured believers)to earth to defeat all evil and set up His kingdom
Jesus is indeed at the door. Whether or not the Rapture will be before or during the tribulation, is unclear. Nevertheless, people need to get the wrinkles, spots and blemishes out of their garments to be accounted worthy to escape what is coming; Jesus is coming for a holy and glorious Bride. Jesus is not going to marry a whore.

Ephesians 5
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 

Taken

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When we replace common sense with spiritual sense, it all comes together.

Do you know what the key is to unlocking this prophecy?

Dan 9:24, and most of which will be fulfilled in the future.

1. Seventy weeks are determined = 490 years

2. upon thy people = the Jews

3.and upon thy holy city = Jerusalem

4. to finish the transgression = terminate the desecration of Jerusalem and the temple

5. and to make an end of sins = terminate sinfulness within Israel, through its redemption and restoration

6. and to make reconciliation for iniquity = to unify the kingdoms of Judah and Israel as one Millennial kingdom under David and Christ

7. and to bring in everlasting righteousness = upon earth through the New Heavens and the New Earth after the Millennium

8. and to seal up the vision and prophecy = to fulfill all the prophecies in Scripture regarding Christ and the Kingdom of God

9. and to anoint the most Holy = to establish a pure and holy eternal temple in Jerusalem

Good post!!

Happy New Year,
God Bless,
Taken
 

VictoryinJesus

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Jesus is indeed at the door. Whether or not the Rapture will be before or during the tribulation, is unclear.

Revelation 3:20
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.