Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

justbyfaith said:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Psalms 90:2.




That is an abject heresy in denial of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ; which doctrine is essential for salvation, John 8:24. Proven by John 8:58 and the response of the Pharisees in John 8:59 and John 10:31-33; for they understood that He was claiming to be the Lord God; because of Exodus 3:14 which He was alluding to in claiming to be the great I AM. Also Luke 1:35 implies that Jesus is the Son of God because the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary in the conception of Jesus. And therefore Jesus would be the Son of God from His very conception. See also Isaiah 9:6 in light of Psalms 90:2.



Be careful not to sound like a motorboat.



That is merely an argument that is demolished by the weapons of our warfare. Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4 shows clearly that the Holy Spirit is God.



He was preincarnate as the Father; of course He existed.



The answer to this is that God (the Father) descended to become a Man; thus forming the 2nd Person of the Trinity, who is the same Spirit, Lord, and God as the Father.

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The doctrine of the Trinity in scripture can be summed up as; There is one God. The Father is God. The Son is God. And the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is not the Father. If you violate any of this, you do not understand scripture on the matter.

mjrhealth said:

No it does not, how Could Jesus save them out of Egypt when He was not yet in existence.

Gods word was always in existence, Jesus is not God that is why God gave Him all things, are you so blind, how does God give Himself what He already has, or raise Himself above Himself.

So blind

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Scripture says he was in existence, always. Jesus Christ is the personal name of Yahweh in the New Covenant. You cannot understand scripture until you understand this.

mjrhealth said:

Scripture teaches no trinity as you are going on about it, for even the Spirit, can only sat what He has being told, if He was God He would not need to be told.

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The three persons of God have different roles but one common truth. If you think of God materialistically, you'll never understand the trinity.

Jane_Doe22 said:

When Christ called over the little children to bless them, He didn't start with "hey- stop, we need to make sure you pass this theology test first".
Likewise, when a little child today expresses their love of Christ and acceptance of Him, I don't see any people saying "stop right there- please explain homoousios to me before you can be saved."

Learning about God and gaining knowledge is a GOOD thing-- don't get me wrong about that. But it's not what our salvation comes from.

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GINOLJC, to all. HAPPY NEW YEAR.
First thanks for the response.

you hit it on the head, "CHILDREN". we as sons and daughters of God have a responsibility to walk/Live a certian way before our heavenly Father. and that is through growth. this is why we have a "GRACE" period.

Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 "Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Ephesians 4:20 "But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

"But ye have not so learned Christ".
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

"COME UNTO ME?" Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

LEARNING OF CHRIST IS TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS, HIS DOCTRINE, OTHER WORDS HIS "WAY"

supportive scripture,
Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little".


1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

the Child of God have a responsibility to GROW UP in CHRIST, and we don't do that in ignorance.

here's a hint about our salvation, "DEAD" Children, (sons and daughters) don't GROW, only ALIVE one GROW. a DEAD tree don't GROW, nor produce "FRUIT". only a LIVE tree Grow and Produce Fruit. like wise a child of God, GROW in FAITH, they LEARN of God their Father. for only a LIVE son can inherit. DEAD sons don't inherit. I'm speaking spiritually and symbolic here.

to whom much is given much is required.

be blessed.

brakelite said:

The question that raises though is this....
Did the Father really send a literal Son to our planet in order to redeem man, or did one of the co-equal members of the trinity come and take on the title "Son", another member of the trinity taking on the title "Father"? So are they literal Father and Son, or merely metaphors offered by God in an effort to give us greater understanding?

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High, and thanks fro your quite probing inquiry! I believe the primary reason that the Son of God became a Son of man (of mankind) is to demonstrate the Father's (God's) love towards mankind, which would be meaningless if the Son He sent was not the Son He's had from everlasting; and the Father sending Him was a greater sacrifice than sending Himself, for what father would not desire to go in his son's stead?

Blessings!

One compelling bit of evidence for me is 1 John 5:7,8 known as the Comma Johannine. Or Comma Johannuem.

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
1 John 5:6-9 NKJV

The red portion simply does not exist in most modern translations. That portion is what is referred to as the Comma Johannine. Yet as the pro-Comma Johannine source points out "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater", of verse 9 makes much less sense without it. But even without it, John seems to clearly equate the witness of the Spirit as the witness of God. Do non-personal energy forces "witness"??

Anti-Sources, CARM.org and gotquestions.org. Both of which I generally highly respect.
What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?
1 John 5:7-8 and King James Onlyism | CARM.org

Pro-Source. Which I find most compelling on this issue.
The Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7-8: Added or Removed? - Berean Patriot

101G said:

this is an interesting statement you made. not for an argument, ok, but consider this,
James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

you said, "because the Father is God". in James 1:27 is God here this the SAME Person the Father".

the thing I'm concern with is the conjunction "and" that separate the two, "God" and "Father".

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Hi and appreciate your input with your reply! The conjunction "and" has two primary senses. One is copulative and the other is cumulative. The copulative or copula has the sense of description. The cumulative has the sense of an additional noun, and not descriptive. Thus "God and our Father here is "God, even (who is) the Father," e.g. Isa 35:4.

Greek 'kai'; Can mean "also" or "even"; Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

101G said:

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

here the first is "WITH" the last. is this one person or two.

but wait, one more,
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".

here, the First is "ALSO" the Last, is this two person or one person, because "I" is a single designation.

what you think?. one person or two?

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To me, this is describing He is first cause of creation and also the cause in last or end of it. I believe none of the three Deities ever takes the place of the Other in anything, but all Three act together in everything, and that the Father works all things via the Life of Christ through the Holy Spirit!

justbyfaith said:

Also, I do not think that I am in disagreement with @Dave L for the most part. For I believe in the Trinity. it is Tritheism that I have an issue with; and it is one of my missions to show forth a more accurate understanding of the Trinity that refutes that heresy: because many who say that they believe in the Trinity actually have a concept of God that is more in line with Tritheism than the true Trinity.

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Well thank you for that...I learned something today.
I had never seen that word before , so I had to look it up.
And I agree with you...I didn't know the difference view had a name.

I see them 'as one' with different expressions where we are concerned. ONE God, showing us three different facets of Himself.
Just as all his different Hebrew names show different facets of His nature.
Healer, Nurturer , Provider, etc etc

justbyfaith said:

The doctrine of the Trinity states that the members of the Godhead are distinct, not separate. Have you considered that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 14:7-11)? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24), even the Spirit of Jesus (understand Ephesians 4:4 in the light)

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Hi JBF, and appreciate your point, but since distinct means separate, you might be describing another issue. They are three Individuals representing the Godhead. "These three are one" (1Jhn 5:7). One, meaning "in agreement" in everything (Definition of ONE).

Blessings!

@justbyfaith @Dave L @Netchaplain @mjrhealth
@101G @Blueberry

Yet I STILL do not believe for a moment that "Trying" to understand the Godhead is a vital need for salvation!!!

A person gets saved...he/she does NOT understand the Godhead.
Yet they are truly saved. So, why make such a big deal over it?
Isn't the heart of the person of much more interest to God than if they knew or understood the depth of the Godhead?

It seems to me by reading Romans 11 that it cannot be understood anyway!
33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. "

"ByGrace" said:

@justbyfaith @Dave L @Netchaplain @mjrhealth
@101G @Blueberry

Yet I STILL do not believe for a moment that "Trying" to understand the Godhead is a vital need for salvation!!!

A person gets saved...he/she does NOT understand the Godhead.
Yet they are truly saved. So, why make such a big deal over it?
Isn't the heart of the person of much more interest to God than if they knew or understood the depth of the Godhead?

It seems to me by reading Romans 11 that it cannot be understood anyway!
33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. "

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The problem is in rejecting the truth when you hear it. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And God sends strong delusion to those who do not receive a love of the truth (Jesus), so that they believe lies instead.

"ByGrace" said:

@justbyfaith @Dave L @Netchaplain @mjrhealth
@101G @Blueberry

Yet I STILL do not believe for a moment that "Trying" to understand the Godhead is a vital need for salvation!!!

A person gets saved...he/she does NOT understand the Godhead.
Yet they are truly saved. So, why make such a big deal over it?
Isn't the heart of the person of much more interest to God than if they knew or understood the depth of the Godhead?

It seems to me by reading Romans 11 that it cannot be understood anyway!
33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. "

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Most churches and most Christians would quickly inform a new convert that y they must believe in the trinity in order to be saved. But which Trinity? This thread alone has revealed that not two people on this entire forum actually agree on what the Godhead looks like. None can describe it in any way that makes sense, and all of them add their own assumptions to what the Bible offers. If it were true that one must believe in the trinity, then none here are saved except one. But which one?
The Bible however says no such thing. The Bible says we must know the Father and the Son. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. A real literal Father and Son. Not a metaphor. Not an indivisible union with a third party.
KJV 1 John 1
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

brakelite said:

Most churches and most Christians would quickly inform a new convert that y they must believe in the trinity in order to be saved. But which Trinity? This thread alone has revealed that not two people on this entire forum actually agree on what the Godhead looks like. None can describe it in any way that makes sense, and all of them add their own assumptions to what the Bible offers. If it were true that one must believe in the trinity, then none here are saved except one. But which one?
The Bible however says no such thing. The Bible says we must know the Father and the Son. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. A real literal Father and Son. Not a metaphor. Not an indivisible union with a third party.
KJV 1 John 1
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

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Willful ignorance is not as excusable as you make it out to be. Anyone can clearly see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each called God in scripture, present at Jesus' baptism. And then the rest of scripture lines up with this.

justbyfaith said:

That may be the accepted theology; but it is flawed to a certain extent. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is the Father; and the Son is the Father. You'll get what I am saying eventually if you think about all of it. It is based on the understanding that there is one God: one and only one; but that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. Because God is outside of time, we cannot accurately say, the Son was the Father; because while this is true, the Father still exists in eternity as a distinct individual from the Son. And the Son also did not cease to be the Father when He descended to become the Son. I am saying that it was not 1/3 of God that descended to become a Man, nor a second God, but God Himself. And when I say God, I mean the Father. There is one Father (Malachi 2:10), and Jesus is it (Isaiah 9:6).



No, actually distinct is something slightly less of a delineation than separate. If the members of the Godhead are separate individuals, then you actually have three Gods. But if you call them distinct, it allows for them to still be one.



No, you're right, that, in particular, is not an essential.

However, the thing that would exclude a person from salvation would be if they reject the doctrine of the Deity of Christ (John 8:24 and accompanying verses).

Also, if someone rejects the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, saying that they did so because they could not understand the Trinity is not going to fly on the day of judgment.

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You follow a different Christ than revealed in the bible. Scripture proves any of your points that stray from the historic trinity doctrine indefensible.

Blueberry said:

One compelling bit of evidence for me is 1 John 5:7,8 known as the Comma Johannine. Or Comma Johannuem.

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
1 John 5:6-9 NKJV

The red portion simply does not exist in most modern translations. That portion is what is referred to as the Comma Johannine. Yet as the pro-Comma Johannine source points out "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater", of verse 9 makes much less sense without it. But even without it, John seems to clearly equate the witness of the Spirit as the witness of God. Do non-personal energy forces "witness"??

Anti-Sources, CARM.org and gotquestions.org. Both of which I generally highly respect.
What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?
1 John 5:7-8 and King James Onlyism | CARM.org

Pro-Source. Which I find most compelling on this issue.
The Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7-8: Added or Removed? - Berean Patriot

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Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this.
First Earthly. spirit, water, and blood are IDENTIFERS for a man. who is made up of 90% water, who have a spirit, and have blood. other words a person. question is water a person?, is blood a person?, and are they separate?. spirit, water, blood is a PERSON, man here on earth.


now heavenly, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one".
the first clue here is "These" three are ONE. why the scriptures NOT say "They" three are ONE?, "THEY" would Indicate persons. no, "These" indicate titles of the same ONE person.

hope that helped.

101G said:

GINOLJC, to all. HAPPY NEW YEAR.
First thanks for the response.

you hit it on the head, "CHILDREN". we as sons and daughters of God have a responsibility to walk/Live a certian way before our heavenly Father. and that is through growth. this is why we have a "GRACE" period.

Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Ephesians 4:15 "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 4:16 "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 "Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Ephesians 4:20 "But ye have not so learned Christ;
Ephesians 4:21 "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

"But ye have not so learned Christ".
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

"COME UNTO ME?" Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

LEARNING OF CHRIST IS TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS, HIS DOCTRINE, OTHER WORDS HIS "WAY"

supportive scripture,
Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little".


1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

the Child of God have a responsibility to GROW UP in CHRIST, and we don't do that in ignorance.

here's a hint about our salvation, "DEAD" Children, (sons and daughters) don't GROW, only ALIVE one GROW. a DEAD tree don't GROW, nor produce "FRUIT". only a LIVE tree Grow and Produce Fruit. like wise a child of God, GROW in FAITH, they LEARN of God their Father. for only a LIVE son can inherit. DEAD sons don't inherit. I'm speaking spiritually and symbolic here.

to whom much is given much is required.

be blessed.

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Again, I'm not saying that learning is a bad thing-- in fact I have said repeatedly that it is a GOOD thing. Just that salvation is not dependent on a person being able to pass a theology test. Again, I don't see Christ saying "stop right there- please explain homoousios to me before you can be saved." Salvation is about Christ moving in our heart, not about our brain's knowledge.

justbyfaith said:

I worship the Lord Jesus Christ above all else, and do not "worship" a translation at all. I do hold the kjv to be the inerrant, inspired word of God however. For He has magnified His word above all His name, Psalms 138:2.

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So according to your logic God has only magnified His word in one particular translation, the King James Version?

Thus the transcribers of the original King James Version were the only transcribers amoungst all the other transcribers who transcribed the original text, who were guided by the Holy Spirit in their work.

Netchaplain said:

Hi and appreciate your input with your reply! The conjunction "and" has two primary senses. One is copulative and the other is cumulative. The copulative or copula has the sense of description. The cumulative has the sense of an additional noun, and not descriptive. Thus "God and our Father here is "God, even (who is) the Father," e.g. Isa 35:4.

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I'm glad you brought that out. what do you say to this verse,
Titus 2:10 "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things".

would not God here is the The copulative of "our Saviour", where as "our Saviour" is the predicate to the subject "God", yes or no?.

and if so then God in Isa 35:4 is then the "Father" as you states, would not JESUS who is "our Saviour" is actually the "Father" yes or no?.

#2. in Reference to
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".

here, the First is "ALSO" the Last, is this two person or one person, because "I" is a single designation.
YOU SAID,

Netchaplain said:

To me, this is describing He is first cause of creation and also the cause in last or end of it

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Good, becase JESUS IS CALLED THE "last" Adam who is God according to Isaiah 35:4. he is the END of the NATURAL MAN, correct.

knowing this, then JESUS who is God, the Father, (depending on your answer in #1.), is the First, GOD, who is Spirit, and now, as you said, "To me, this is describing He is first cause of creation and also the cause in last or end of it", meaning the First and the Last is the "SAME" PERSON.

and if they are the same PERSOM, then they cannot be separate PERSON, is this assessment correct.

Remember, we're not arguing, discussing, for as I said, you made some interesting comments which I take as good.

I'm looking for your assessment or oponion of what I posted here. if need be re-read and follow what I have said.

thanks in advance.