Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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justbyfaith

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When Jesus died on the Cross, His soul and Spirit were separated from His human body. He commended His Spirit into the hands of the Father immediately before He died.

That is how death is defined: separation. The human Jesus (who was fully God in His humanity) became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him; when the Holy Spirit left Him and the Father turned His face away.
 

101G

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My Trinity doctrine (as it is presented in posts #1-#4...shortcut: Trinity II) does not conflict with the scriptures; and is also compatible with Oneness doctrine to show that the true Trinity is indeed faithful and sound doctrine for those who have been baptized in Jesus' Name.
Just like me, I was not responding to you... I was responding back to Dave and any trinity believers.

but while we're speaking about oneness, as you know I'm a "diversified" oneness, and not a Oneness as the Incorporated Pentecostal teach.
 

Taken

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correct, listen,
1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow".

see taken the Spirit was IN, IN, IN, them, the holy prophet who prophesied of the grace that should cme unto us.

see, the Spirit of, of, of, Christ is Christ. in the OT he was without flesh without bone and without blood.

the same Spirit who is Christ.

got it now?. read 1 Peter 10 & 11 again.

PICJAG.

You do understand WAS, as in past, as in the context of OT...eh?

You are speaking of NT disciples.

You are telling me things I already know, have already said...then asking me if I get it....

Weird.
 

Taken

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You are correct, that the indivisible concept of Trinity is vital to the doctrine. Which is why I disagree with it.

Okay...but hold on ...

If the Son did not fully die, then there was no full propitiation.

Can you explain what you mean "FULLY die" ?

All we have is a human sacrifice...

Jesus didn't come to BE A HUMAN SACRIFICE....Jesus came to BE A SACRIFICE "FOR" HUMANS.


And a part of that someone remaining alive as part of the Trinity. So the Father sacrificed nothing. He didn't really give His Son at all. The wages of sin, death, that is full and complete separation from God which is the sinners destiny, was not experienced by Christ at all. We are still in our sins.

I would like to get back to this comment...could you answer my question first, so I know exactly what you mean?

Thanks,
God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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1Jo 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


Act 4:10

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act 4:11

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Act 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Uh huh...None of those things have anything to do with my disagreement with you.

You claimed Jesus was created.
I still disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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Uh huh...None of those things have anything to do with my disagreement with you.

You claimed Jesus was created.
I still disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken
In His humanity.

In His Deity He is God Almighty, self-existent and uncreated.
 

justbyfaith

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Also, it wasn't my claim, but the claim of holy scripture:

[Rom 1:3 KJV] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

[Isa 45:11 KJV] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
 
B

brakelite

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Okay...but hold on ...



Can you explain what you mean "FULLY die" ?



Jesus didn't come to BE A HUMAN SACRIFICE....Jesus came to BE A SACRIFICE "FOR" HUMANS.




I would like to get back to this comment...could you answer my question first, so I know exactly what you mean?

Thanks,
God Bless,
Taken
What I am saying is that if Christ had sinned, in the most minutest particular in thought or action, Christ and the church would have had no hope. Christ, if He had sinned, would never have been resurrected. Heaven itself would have suffered eternal loss. Such was the risk...such was the love....such was the sacrifice both Father and Son took in carrying out the mission of saving mankind. Christ has to go through the same temptations such as we do...with the same risk of succumbing...taking upon Himself the same second death (eternal death) that we would be subject to had Christ not taken upon Himself our condemnation. I appreciate that the indivisibility factor of the trinity forbids such a concept of the possibility of Christ sinning and being thus separated from the Godhead.
In taking upon Himself the death we deserved, if there was a part of Christ still inseparably bount to the trinity, He didn't fully die, thus our death is still our own.
 

justbyfaith

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What I am saying is that if Christ had sinned, in the most minutest particular in thought or action, Christ and the church would have had no hope. Christ, if He had sinned, would never have been resurrected. Heaven itself would have suffered eternal loss. Such was the risk...such was the love....such was the sacrifice both Father and Son took in carrying out the mission of saving mankind. Christ has to go through the same temptations such as we do...with the same risk of succumbing...taking upon Himself the same second death (eternal death) that we would be subject to had Christ not taken upon Himself our condemnation. I appreciate that the indivisibility factor of the trinity forbids such a concept of the possibility of Christ sinning and being thus separated from the Godhead.
In taking upon Himself the death we deserved, if there was a part of Christ still inseparably bount to the trinity, He didn't fully die, thus our death is still our own.
Most certainly there is a distinction between the members; and in the death of Jesus on the Cross there is even separation.

Now that He is risen from the dead however, that separation no longer exists.
 
D

Dave L

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You have bought into the Catholic lie. Those who were persecuted, such as the Waldenses, we the ones preserving the truth in the face of Antichrist's heresies.
And you have only the word of the Antichrist that Arius taught error because all his writings were destroyed or likely altered to suit the church.
If you study OT Israel, God used the wicked State to kill off heretics as he did throughout church history. Eventually the heretics took over and killed off the saints, in both cases. But we received purity of doctrine up front, followed by the trials of our faith through martyrdom, which we are also appointed to.
 
D

Dave L

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Where do I admit having not done this. I have studied the doctrines as they exist in the holy scriptures; and I am also aware of what is written in the creeds on the subject.

You appear to want to bear false witness as to my testimony.
You are attacking teachers God placed in the church that you are willfully ignorant of, judging them in the same way you will be judged, if scripture holds true.
 
D

Dave L

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Really, are you sure? I find that there are churches and churches even within trinitarian mainline churches that would fit the profile of those that are rejected. Each individual gathering of the Church needs to be evaluated before a blanket statement can be made as you have done.
Mainline Trinitarian churches are not Charismatic, as Jesus describes. Moreover, Oneness Pentecostals broke away from trinitarian Christianity and are more like Islam in their reckoning of God. Who do you think best fits the profile of the false professors Jesus will reject on Judgement day?
 

Taken

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What I am saying is that if Christ had sinned, in the most minutest particular in thought or action, Christ and the church would have had no hope.
Christ, if He had sinned, would never have been resurrected. Heaven itself would have suffered eternal loss.
Such was the risk...such was the love....such was the sacrifice both Father and Son took in carrying out the mission of saving mankind.

Your IF, is imaginary.
There was no risk.
The Father and Son are One God.
God can not stand against Himself.

Christ has to go through the same temptations such as we do...with the same risk of succumbing...taking upon Himself the same second death (eternal death) that we would be subject to had Christ not taken upon Himself our condemnation.

When Scripture says Jesus was "tempted"...
It is NOT about Jesus being weak and considering what Satan was "suggesting".

Satan IS a "TEMPTer". A TemptER: brings up his own IDEA, and TRIES to get "another" to "Consider his IDEA", and "hopefully DO what the TemptER suggests".

Satan IS the Example AGAINST God.
Satan IS the Example FOR mankind to follow, to ALSO Be AGAINST God.
Satan IS the TEMPTer, with HIS OWN LIES,
to CONVINCE people to BE AGAINST God.

Jesus IS the Example FOR God.
Jesus IS the EXAMPLE FOR mankind to follow to ALSO Be FOR God.
Jesus IS the TEACHER, with HIS OWN TRUTH,
To CONVINCE people to BE FOR God.

I appreciate that the indivisibility factor of the trinity forbids such a concept of the possibility of Christ sinning and being thus separated from the Godhead.

What you are promoting is that...
Jesus..........COULD HAVE........SINNED.

Jesus was ON EARTH...some 33 years.
Instead of promoting, "Jesus could have sinned"....

How about, INSTEAD, you reveal ONE FACT, that remotely "suggests", your theory, has merit?

In taking upon Himself the death we deserved, if there was a part of Christ still inseparably bount to the trinity, He didn't fully die, thus our death is still our own.

You still did not Explain what you mean...
By the expression..... FULLY DIE.

What do you mean?

Glory To God,
Taken
 

101G

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No what?

And no kidding God is Spirit...
Who said otherwise...?
I didn't!
this is what you said, and the reason why I answered no,
God IS;
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
again I say NO. God is a Spirit, not a father, a son, and a Holy Spirit, he is only the "HOLY SPIRIT".

see this is the problem, God is the Holy Spirit who holds the titles "Father" and "Son" and not a Person called the Father and a person called the Son. Father and son are his titles in and out of flesh.


UNDERSTAND me. the term God is HOLY SPIRIT only. listen,

God, the HOLY SPIRIT, holds the Title "Father" because he created and made everything. no flesh, no bone, and no blood, only Spirit.

God, the HOLY SPIRIT, Holds the Title "Son" because he redeemed and save all things that he created and made. he did this by coming in flesh with bone and with blood. this is the "diversity" the sharing, or the ANOTHER of himself, as G243 points and proves out. "THE SPIRIT", Manifested in this World as his own "ARM".

understand me Taken. I have only one person in the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. and this one Person shared himself in the form of his own image that was to come...... man. and as a man he holds the title "son". and as Spirit he holds the title "Father". same person, only shared in or out of flesh.

so in diversified Oneness there is only ONE PERSON, who shared himself in flesh and that's the Holy Spirit. this is confirmed in the Definition of G243 Allos, which means a "numerical difference", and of the same "SORT", meaning the same person in flesh. the share, not a share, but "the" share, meaning the SAME PERSON.

One Person, two titles.

PICJAG
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all

first thanks for the reply, second, if your definition of the Godhead is this, what you posted in #4, you said this,
When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).
note you say Jesus is YHWH, our saviour. if he's YHWH how do you make your doctrine the true Trinity? here, you have JESUS who is YHWH and the the one who is really the Father, the Holy Spirit, as the same one person. because you said this,
Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.
Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

ok, if the Father is Lord, and JESUS is YHWH who is the Father, the Spirit, per John 4:24a, then the Lord is one person. and you claim that the Holy Spirit is another separate person, that's only two, no trinity. listen to what you said,
Now, the Holy Ghost.

There is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And He is the Father:
STOP, he, the Holy GHOST is FATHER? (which is right), meaning by your definition that he's the Father also who is JESUS, and that means it's only one "Father". then you compound it with this,
The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):
released his Spirit back to the "FATHER?". now you're saying that the Spirit and the Father is not the same person in which you establish he is in the first place. THAT'S CONFUSION.

he is the Father, and now he's not the Father, but again he is. NO, that's confusion, that's not even the trinity, nor Oneness.

if you will, may I suggest this to you. there is ONE Lord, the Father, (the Holy Spirit), but he's "ANOTHER" of himself in shared flesh. as Spirit, he, the Father, alway "Which is", was, and Which is to come", without flesh, per Genesis 1:1 and comfirmed in Isaiah 9:6

as son, (the Holy Spirit), in flesh, "THE ANOTHER" of himself, he's the ONE Lord who always "Which is, "Which was", "which is to Come, in the likeness of men, Per John 1:1 comfirmed in Isaiah 9:6

this ONE Lord who rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit, who is the title Holder of "Son" and "Father" for it was he, the "Lord" JESUS who raised himself from the DEAD, see, Acts 2:24, which was made known in (John 2:10), yes, the God who raised up that body was JESUS, the Father. who always, "Which is, "Which was", "which is to Come". Per Revelation 1:1 comfirmed in Isaiah 9:6.

there you have it, the ONE "Lord", "Which is, "Which was", and "which is to Come"

Listen carefully, "Which is, "Which was", and "which is to Come", is the revelation of Jesus the christ.
Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

"HIM" here is ONE PERSON.

Now let's put it all together

Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Revelation 1:4 reveals that JESUS is YHWH
I AM = Which is, Spirit, Genesis 1:1, "is" Spirit, no flesh, no bones, and no blood.
THAT = "Which WAS", John 1:1 "was" a man, with flesh, with bone, and with blood.
I AM = "Which is to Come", Revelation 1:1 "is" spirit, with flesh, with bome, but no BLOOD. the new CREATION, the REVELATION of Jesus Christ as God almighty as a man, per Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".

conclusion, the one Lord is the one PERSON, who is the one God.
I AM THAT I AM is the "which is/FATHER, and which was/SON, and which is to come/Holy Spirit.

these are the THREE dispensatation of God . scripture,
1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

notice verse 6, "the same God", God is a Spirit, per John 4:24a so it would read, "the same Spirit". .... :p

Spirit = "I AM", "Which is",
Lord = "THAT", "Which was"
spirit/God = "I AM, "Which is to come".
I AM THAT IA AM, which is, which was, which is to come. GOD, the Holy Spirit.

ps,
this is where the unitarians try to say, JESUS is the "EVERLASTING FATHER" to come. well they are a dollar short and a day late, because he always is, was, and is to come, the Father/Holy Spirit. :eek:

are not the scriptures beautiful, God reveals himself in, CREATION/Father, without a body. and with a body of flesh he's the SAVIOUR/Son. now in a body that is glorified with the Spirit, the COMFORTER/Holy Spirit. and he did it al lby "diversifying" himself in flesh, better known as the "OFFSPRING"... (smile).

what a mighty God we serve.

Justby faith I suggest you re-read this post for clarity. if you have any questions, just ask.

PICJAG
 

Taken

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this is what you said, and the reason why I answered no,

again I say NO. God is a Spirit, not a father, a son, and a Holy Spirit, he is only the "HOLY SPIRIT".

see this is the problem, God is the Holy Spirit who holds the titles "Father" and "Son" and not a Person called the Father and a person called the Son. Father and son are his titles in and out of flesh.


UNDERSTAND me. the term God is HOLY SPIRIT only. listen,

God, the HOLY SPIRIT, holds the Title "Father" because he created and made everything. no flesh, no bone, and no blood, only Spirit.

God, the HOLY SPIRIT, Holds the Title "Son" because he redeemed and save all things that he created and made. he did this by coming in flesh with bone and with blood. this is the "diversity" the sharing, or the ANOTHER of himself, as G243 points and proves out. "THE SPIRIT", Manifested in this World as his own "ARM".

understand me Taken. I have only one person in the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. and this one Person shared himself in the form of his own image that was to come...... man. and as a man he holds the title "son". and as Spirit he holds the title "Father". same person, only shared in or out of flesh.

so in diversified Oneness there is only ONE PERSON, who shared himself in flesh and that's the Holy Spirit. this is confirmed in the Definition of G243 Allos, which means a "numerical difference", and of the same "SORT", meaning the same person in flesh. the share, not a share, but "the" share, meaning the SAME PERSON.

One Person, two titles.

PICJAG

In short, you have revealed your understanding is to separate;
God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I disagree. God...called by whatever name or title is the SAME One God.

Not much different than you, Man...called by whatever name or title are the SAME one man.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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101G

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In short, you have revealed your understanding is to separate;
God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I disagree. God...called by whatever name or title is the SAME One God.

Not much different than you, Man...called by whatever name or title are the SAME one man.

Glory to God,
Taken
ERROR again, not separate, but the "share" of the same one.

"share" VS "Seperation"

God the Spirit "shared himself in flesh. the same one only, just a numerical difference
 

Taken

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ERROR again, not separate, but the "share" of the same one.

Disagree. Not separate. Not sharing amongst God, but rather all IS God.

"share" VS "Seperation"

God the Spirit "shared himself in flesh. the same one only, just a numerical difference

I disagree with your attempts to make God Separate from Himself.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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