Life’s Greatest Tragedy

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bigape

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Normally when you think of a tragedy, you think about some great disaster, like an earthquake or flood, that takes thousands of lives. Well there is an even greater disaster than this, that is effecting Billions of people. This disaster isn’t greater, because it hurts more people, but because of the duration, in which these people will be hurt. The tragedy, that I am referring to, is a Spiritual tragedy. And we can read about it in Matthew chapter 7. Matthew 7:21-23V.21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The tragedy talked about in this passage, is the tragedy of a religious person, thinking that they are saved, and on their way to heaven; Only to find out too late, that they weren’t really saved, at all. The Bible tells us here and many other places, that Billions of people, are going to be deceived in this way, and will have to spend an eternity in Hell, because of it. The most important thing in the world, for us to do, is to make 1000% sure, that we are truly born again, and not just religious (See 2 Corinthians 13:5). Faith in Jesus Christ alone, is the only way of true forgiveness and salvation. Making sure that we are doing things, “according to the Bible”, and not “according to man’s opinion”, is another good way, to make sure, that you are really saved. One of the best ways, to know if your are really saved, is how you react to messages like this. If this message, causes you to have any doubts about your relationship with God, this is a good sign, that you need to do some soul searching.
 

setfree

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One thing I notice about this verse is the....doing. If Jesus is Lord of your life, you will do his will. Is it that these people did these things because it is what they thought or what Jesus told them to do?
 

Wakka

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Amen. That honestly scares the heck out of me! There was a period of time in my life where that haunted me.
 

TallMan

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. . . The most important thing in the world, for us to do, is to make 1000% sure, that we are truly born again, and not just religious (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).
Couldn't agree more . . . do you agree that you are not born again until you receive the Holy Spirit, as the disciples did at Pentecost?they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance . . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . . . For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts 2:4, 33, 39)This accords perfectly with how Jesus describes the experience:-The wind blows (greek: the spirit breathes) where it listeth, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.(John 3:8)This is how God saves people:-he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour (Titus 3:5-6)
 

bigape

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Hi Setfree (Feels great to be here) Good question: The way I see it, is in V.23, when Jesus said,.....”depart from me, ye that work iniquity”; This tells us the mistake that they had made. i.e. They were doing these things, to try and work their way to heaven, without repentance and trust in Christ. Even if your doing something good, it can be “iniquity”, if your doing it for the wrong reason. See you later.
 

bigape

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Hi Wakka Thanks for the amen. It is good for all of us, to keep examining our hearts.
 

bigape

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Hi Tallman The quick answer to your question, is “yes”. This was the day, that the Church was actually born: because 120 individual people went into the upper room, and when they came down, they were all one body(all having the same Spirit). They all “received” the indwelling Holy Spirit, just as every believer does today, at the moment that they are saved. As for God’s grand purpose, for “filling them” with the Spirit on this occasion; It all started with Acts 1:8a “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you”. They received power, to preaching the Gospel on that particular day. As for the Supernatural ability to speak foreign languages, this was a fulfillment of prophecy. (See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22) Let me give you a quick test: Which of the 12 apostles, did not speak in tongues, on this day. Looking closely, we find, that is was Peter; Because in Acts 2:14, Peter said, “Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you”. He was speaking in his known language, to the people that lived right there. The picture that I see, when I study this passage, are all the 12 apostles, standing on a platform, and Peter delivering God’s message to the crowd, and the other 11 apostles translating his message, for all the people from out of town. Just like you might see today, if a preacher is preaching in a foreign land, he would have a translator on the platform with him. And you are right; We are saved, by the shed blood of Jesus, not by any amount of good works, that we might do. Thank you for your reply Tallman, I am loving this.
 

TallMan

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Let me give you a quick test: Which of the 12 apostles, did not speak in tongues, on this day. Looking closely, we find, that is was Peter; Because in Acts 2:14, Peter said, “Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you”. He was speaking in his known language, to the people that lived right there.
Hello bigape, scripture teaches that you failed your test:-"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues" (Acts 2:4)not "all except Peter"Also, after the gentiles speak in tongues Peter says"as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning" (Acts 11:15)The idea that Peter alone didn't speak in tongues is nonsense, it is a common salvation (same for all).What happened was that Peter stood up, (so he had been sitting beforehand) they all stopped speaking in tongues to allow Peter to speak to those that overheard but whe were all in doubt and confusion. (see vv12-14)(bigape;50233)
The picture that I see, when I study this passage, are all the 12 apostles, standing on a platform, and Peter delivering God’s message to the crowd, and the other 11 apostles translating his message,
No, the crowd were all bi-lingual Jews from different countries, they all spoke the common jewish language (aramaic) that Peter spoke. This needed no translation.(bigape;50233)
And you are right; We are saved, by the shed blood of Jesus, not by any amount of good works, that we might do.
Jesus said that we need to drink his blood and he was talking Spiritually (John 6:53, 63)We begin to do this when we are baptised in the Spirit who immediately causes all to speak in tongues (makes us to drink):-1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 

setfree

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I will have to agree with Tallman on this one too! Because I see only Peter preaching...I could never figure out how he preached and everyone heard in there own language, How do you know he spoke Aramaic, Tallman?I do believe they all were able to speak in tongues. But that day Peter preached and at least 3000 understood.Another comment about the first post, I believe the devil puts false doubt in our mind about our salvation. So just because you doubt does not mean there is something wrong with your salvation....Just a thought!
 

TallMan

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I will have to agree with Tallman on this one too! Because I see only Peter preaching...I could never figure out how he preached and everyone heard in there own language, How do you know he spoke Aramaic, Tallman?
Do a bit of reasearch - They had been in captivity to the Assyrians and Babylonians who spoke aramaic, as did other surrounding nations. The New tetsament was written in koine (common) greek because that was the international language (a left-over from the Greek empire). Religious scholars would have learned hedrew and latin was spoken among Roman soldiers.(setfree;50245)
I do believe they all were able to speak in tongues. But that day Peter preached and at least 3000 understood.
Peter was in "the upper room". Maybe a few hundred gathered below, once they had understood and gone to be baptised and prayed with to receive the Spirit by the rest of the 120 disciples, hundreds more could have been spoken to, by Peter, John, James etc.
 

bigape

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Hi again, TallMan & Setfree Let me apologize, for getting off on the wrong foot. I could kind of tell, where you were coming from with your question:(Pentecostal background), so I shouldn’t have started things off, with an argument about “speaking in tongues”. As you can tell, I don’t come from that background. But regardless of our backgrounds, we are brothers in Christ, if we are born again. Since you have probably already heard, all the anti-tongues arguments, then I won’t boar you with them. Just so you know, when I look at (Acts 2:4), I see it a little like, (Mark 16:16)-------------------------------------------------- -Let me explain- Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” i.e. As we all know, that water baptism, isn’t necessary for salvation; So the proper way to look at this verse is, He that believeth is saved, and then gets baptized, because he is saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Now, you know, that I am not changing Scripture: This is just the way this verse should be understood, in light of what the rest of the Bible says about the true way of salvation! (This is rightly dividing the word of truth!)-------------------------------------------------- Now here, in this response, I started to show you, the way that I read Acts 2:4, but stopped myself, because being brothers in Christ, we should seek common ground. Enough said. I do have one comment although: and that is the statement you made about, having a “common salvation”, you said...... “it is a common salvation (same for all).” Sure enough, we were all saved the same way, but as I see it, “speaking in tongues”, has nothing to do with salvation. I happen to be walking in the Spirit, and right now I am filled with the Spirit, but I have never spoken in tongues. Like I said before, we come from different backgrounds, but we are still brothers in Christ. I am sorry, if I offended you my brother.
 

setfree

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Hi again, TallMan & Setfree Let me apologize, for getting off on the wrong foot. I could kind of tell, where you were coming from with your question:(Pentecostal background), so I shouldn’t have started things off, with an argument about “speaking in tongues”. As you can tell, I don’t come from that background. But regardless of our backgrounds, we are brothers in Christ, if we are born again. Since you have probably already heard, all the anti-tongues arguments, then I won’t boar you with them. Just so you know, when I look at (Acts 2:4), I see it a little like, (Mark 16:16)-------------------------------------------------- -Let me explain- Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” i.e. As we all know, that water baptism, isn’t necessary for salvation; So the proper way to look at this verse is, He that believeth is saved, and then gets baptized, because he is saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Now, you know, that I am not changing Scripture: This is just the way this verse should be understood, in light of what the rest of the Bible says about the true way of salvation! (This is rightly dividing the word of truth!)-------------------------------------------------- Now here, in this response, I started to show you, the way that I read Acts 2:4, but stopped myself, because being brothers in Christ, we should seek common ground. Enough said. I do have one comment although: and that is the statement you made about, having a “common salvation”, you said...... “it is a common salvation (same for all).” Sure enough, we were all saved the same way, but as I see it, “speaking in tongues”, has nothing to do with salvation. I happen to be walking in the Spirit, and right now I am filled with the Spirit, but I have never spoken in tongues. Like I said before, we come from different backgrounds, but we are still brothers in Christ. I am sorry, if I offended you my brother.
No offense taken! But just to set the record straight I do not come from Penecostal background...never set foot in a fellowship of Penecost. I do not have anything against anyone of any denomination. I might not agree on how they interpret scripture, but that does not mean they are not a brother in Christ.I have learned something from everyone in this forum. It makes me dig deeper and get on solid ground. I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved....but I do believe it is available to all. I knew Christ as my Savior for a long time before I spoke in tongues. (mostly because I was taught against it, my background is Baptist)Back to your post, as I am still trying to re learn the Bible by the Holy Spirit....I have a long way to go.
 

RaddSpencer

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No offense taken! But just to set the record straight I do not come from Penecostal background...never set foot in a fellowship of Penecost. I do not have anything against anyone of any denomination. I might not agree on how they interpret scripture, but that does not mean they are not a brother in Christ.I have learned something from everyone in this forum. It makes me dig deeper and get on solid ground. I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved....but I do believe it is available to all. I knew Christ as my Savior for a long time before I spoke in tongues. (mostly because I was taught against it, my background is Baptist)Back to your post, as I am still trying to re learn the Bible by the Holy Spirit....I have a long way to go.
I've been in baptist, methodist, and pentecostal churches, among others. I've learned that the Holy Spirit will give what the church desires. If she wants to speak in tongues -- He'll do it. If she only wants a 25 minute message with a 15 minute praise session, He will give that as well.The Holy Spirit is not some sort of cosmic supercomputer. He is not some sort of machine that only responds to certain types of commands whilst ignoring all others. the Holy Spirit is a Person -- a Person who wants to KNOW us.And to be honest, if the church desires to worship Him in some way, He will gladly accept it.If a church wants the entire spiritual buffet, the Lord is willing to provide. If the church only wants a small spiritual plate of vegetables, the Lord will also provide.Romans 14:1-4 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.And yea, speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation.
 

TallMan

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. . .But regardless of our backgrounds, we are brothers in Christ, if we are born again.
Yes, are you born again?If you think you are, may I ask why?(bigape;50317)
i.e. As we all know, that water baptism, isn’t necessary for salvation;
So why does Jesus say: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" And at Pentecost, when the convicted Jews asked Peter "what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)Peter replied:-"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."If baptism isn't needed, why does he command it?(bigape;50317)
So the proper way to look at this verse is, He that believeth is saved, and then gets baptized, because he is saved;
Do you believe that a person needs to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved?"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5)Do you believe the Samarians who got baptised had previously received the Holy Spirit?"when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 9:14-16)
 

Christina

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The problem is not with what you say Tallmen its with your conception that the holy spirit is Babble it does not exist in the Word. The Tongues of Pentecost was evidenced by speaking and understanding natural languages of men to spread the Gospel around the World. The word Tongue simply means the natural languages down to the very dialectof known languages of the nations of men.
 

RaddSpencer

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i.e. As we all know, that water baptism, isn’t necessary for salvation;
I attended a Church of Christ denomination once, and those brothers believe that without baptism, there is no salvation --- period. However, even if it is not "technically" required for salvation, it is mentioned in the new testament every time someone is saved. It seems vital, and frankly, we should err on the side of caution and baptize people as soon as they repent of their sins and accept Christ.However, if someone accepts Christ and dies before they can be baptized (like in a war situation), I think God will still accept them.
 

Christina

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Baptism is required just not water baptism there is only one baptism, one God and one religion and that is Christ If you accept Christ repent of your sins you are baptised in the Holy spirit that is what Christianity is belief and repentance in his name. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. There is no other baptism of holy spirit/or ghost only one
 

TallMan

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The problem is not with what you say Tallmen its with your conception that the holy spirit is Babble it does not exist in the Word.
Yes it does, that's why there MUST be interpretation whenever tongues is used in a normal christian meeting,1Co:14:11: Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto meAnd :14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. . .so, the speaker doesn't understand what he/she is saying, and neither will any that over-hear unless they happen to know that language, and even then they are not being spoken to.It's like if I'm walking down the Champs Elyses in Paris and I over-hear 2 american tourists talking, I will recognise the words and may even know that they are talking about lunch or a film they saw, but, I would be wrong and foolish to assume they were talking to me.At Pentecost, bi-lingual Jews overheard the disciples speaking to God in tongues and they recognised they were talking about the things of God, but they were all left in doubt and confusion because they were not a part of those things and they were not being spoken to.Ac:2:12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?1Co:14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.(kriss;50367)
The Tongues of Pentecost was evidenced by speaking and understanding natural languages of men to spread the Gospel around the World.
Nonsense!As previously stated, none of those that over-heard tongues understood the gospel as a result!Peter stood up, they all stopped speaking in tongues and Peter spoke to the crowd in the common learned language, then they understood the gospel, obeyed it by being baptised and receiving the same . . then they returned home so the gospel spread without anyone needing a new language to speak to men in.
 

Christina

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Yes it does:-1Co:14:14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.So, the speaker doesn't understand what he/she is saying, and neither will any that over-hear unless they happen to know that language, and even then they are not being spoken to.It's like if I'm walking down the Champs Elyses in Paris and I over-hear 2 american tourists talking, I will recognise the words and may even know that they are talking about lunch or a film they saw, but, I would be wrong and foolish to assume they were talking to me.At Pentecost, bi-lingual Jews overheard the disciples speaking to God in tongues and they recognised they were talking about the things of God, but they were all left in doubt and confusion because they were not a part of those things and they were not being spoken to.Ac:2:12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?1Co:14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.Nonsense!None of those that over-heard tongues understood the gospel as a result!Peter stood up, they all stopped speaking in tongues and Peter spoke to the crowd in the common learned language, then they understood the gospel, obeyed it by being baptised and receiving the same . . then they returned home so the gospel spread without anyone needing a new language to speak to men in.
And as I have showed you before the Word UNKOWN was added by men its not in the manuscripts.Penecost was God speaking through men teaching his Word , 1 Cor. is men teaching men the Word of God in their natural languages to spread the Gospel around the World as commanded thats it no babble no new baptism. One baptism one God one religion all teaching and spreading the Word of God. Speaking in Tongues After the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Ac. 2:4). When the apostles are filled with the Holy Spirit they become the Spirit’s mouthpiece by speaking in tongues (i.e., spoken foreign languages) to a large assembly of foreign Jews. Because the gift of tongues is greatly misunderstood in our day (primarily by Charismatics) it is important that we carefully define the biblical phenomenon of tongues. What are the biblical tongues? (1) The term tongues (in Greek glossa, plural glossais) when used of human speech always refers to the speaking of actual human languages.59 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) the word glossa occurs thirty times and always refers to real human languages.60 In the book of Acts where we are introduced to the supernatural phenomenon of tongues speaking, Luke emphasizes the fact the that apostles were speaking real, known, human languages. “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, ‘Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?’” (Acts 2:5-8). That the disciples were speaking real human languages is evident in the following observations. (a) The tongues were immediately understood by the hearers from several different Roman provinces and lands without any need for interpretation. This fact can only mean that the apostles were speaking real, normal languages. Remember the miracle or sign was in the speaking; not in the hearing. The hearers at this point were not even believers. “What this speaking ‘with different tongues’ means is stated in v. 6: ‘everyone heard them speaking in his own language;’ and in v. 11: ‘we are hearing them telling with our own tongue the great things of God.’ The disciples spoke in foreign languages that were hitherto unknown to them, in the very languages of the natives of the foreign lands who were presently assembled before them.”61 As if to emphasize that the disciples were speaking real languages and not gibberish, Luke even lists the peoples which heard their native tongues: “Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs–we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:9-11). (
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In Acts 2, glossais is used by Luke interchangeably with dialektos which the eminent lexicographer J. H. Thayer defines as “the tongue or language peculiar to any people.”62 Obviously, if Luke uses tongues (glossais) and languages (dialektos) in a parallel or synonymous manner, tongues speaking cannot refer to gibberish. “The equation of ‘tongue’ and dialektos in verse 8 shows that speech in different languages is meant.”63 The languages are listed in verses 9 and 11.We are not going to argue tongues again there are at least 50 threads doing so there is no babble in the Word of God it is a religious belief not scripture you want to practice it thats one's own choice but it is not written as any act of any aspostel.
 
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