Is faith (belief) enough?

RichardBurger · May 26, 2008

The words faith, trust, confidence, conviction, belief, assurance, reliance all mean the same thing. Check your Thesaurus.Since faith is the same thing as trust, then those that preach faith alone is just not enough, are also saying that trusting in God is just not enough.Yet the scriptures tell us that those that trust in the Lord will never be put to shame.So tell me why faith (trust) in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross is just not enough?You can't SEE any of these things.Jesus describes our work as being to place our faith in Him, to believe in Him, to have confidence in Him, to be assured in Him, and to be reliant on Him. Doing this is obeying Him.Mark 5:3636 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, He said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not be afraid; only believe."NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.Mark 9:2323 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes." NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.John 1:12-1312 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.John 3:3636 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.John 6:28-3828 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." 30 Therefore they said to Him,"What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always." 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.John 8:23-2423 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." NKJVThose that believe in the works theology will say this isn't enough. It is seen as being lazy.John 11:25-2725 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world." NKJVEither a person is saved by believing Jesus is the Son of God ALONE or these scriptures are not complete since they do not include the works of man.If a person wants to obey Jesus then believe in His work on the cross. His work on the cross is the only work that will save a person.A working faith in Jesus is a faith that knows only His work on the cross is acceptable to God.Richard

TallMan · May 26, 2008

(RichardBurger;50433)
. . .If a person wants to obey Jesus then believe in His work on the cross. His work on the cross is the only work that will save a person.
Calvary was to enable Pentecost.Jesus death and ascension was to allow his Life to be received:-"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . . .For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:4, 33, 39)Have you received that Richard, if so, why not preach it?Anyone who rejects the NEED for that rejects Jesus and makes his sacrifice of no effect."he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5-6)

Craig19 · May 26, 2008

Richard I think you are mis understanding what people are saying. You see the problem is a lot of people say they believe in Jesus, but the way they live does not show it. Lets look at examples I believe Jesus died for all my sins so no matter what I do I am going to heaven. I can sleep around steel drug ect. its all forgiven. Now the thing is people that do these things do not truly believe although they say they do.I do not think anyone is preaching faith is not enough. What they are trying to say is if you claim you have faith your works will be evidence of that.I think we as humans just mis the point here. Your works are basically proof of your belief no one is saying you get into heaven by works. But here comes the problem which causes the debate if works show your faith and my works are better than yours my faith is better. WRONG. You see this is why God tells us not to judge because He knew we would not be able to get it right. Luckely God sees our hearts.I just want to use myself as an example to explain better. When I grew up I knew about Jesus and believed, but I was a druggie a smoker I slept around I did everything. I was not going to heaven I thought I believed but I was lying to myself. Then God came into my life I gave up everything drinking smoking drugging sleeping around it all. Why because I really started to believe. Now I gave it all up but I still make mistakes a couple of times I smoked again I slept with a girl, but what was different in my heart I was trying to keep away from evil, God knew that and helps me to turn from these things everyday. Although people would have judged me and said according to your life your not a Christian I would know what was going on in my heart. What you do does not determine where you go but it does help you see in which way you are heading and whether you truly believe or not. But only God can judge that. You see without Jesus you make mistakes and do not care about it, with Him you still make mistakes but you feel guilty about it because you really believe and thus your actions or works change.I think what people are trying to say is not that works get you into heaven but works can be used to judge your faith which you need to get into heaven.

treeoflife · May 26, 2008

(TallMan;50435)
Calvary was to enable Pentecost.Jesus death and ascension was to allow his Life to be received:-"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . . .For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:4, 33, 39)Have you received that Richard, if so, why not preach it?Anyone who rejects the NEED for that rejects Jesus and makes his sacrifice of no effect."he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5-6)
What exactly are you saying is a NEED? We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we first believe.

treeoflife · May 26, 2008

Richard, the mistake many people make is that they want to earn their way to heaven, and when they see someone else not living a life worthy of the Gospel, they want to explain it away by works. They want to say, "Well, they aren't saved because they DO THIS, or DO THAT." In fact, the only thing Jesus said works WON'T do, is get you into heaven.

Matthew 7:22-24Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The power, the right to eternal life is in knowing Christ, period. Nothing else. No works required whatsoever. In fact, the only thing works will do is give one a FALSE SECURITY of salvation. Works are actually deceiving in that way, because rather than *being a fruit* of salvation (which they are), we mistakenly think that works are the ROOT of salvation (which they are not). Salvation is reserved for His Sheep... and He knows who His sheep are.

Luke 22:33-34 But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

What if Peter were to have died after the very moment he denied Jesus the third time? Would Peter be doomed? No, he wouldn't be doomed. That is because the truth is... regardless of what Peter's life was displaying, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, Peter did know Jesus... and that's the truth. Jesus said that Peter would deny that he KNEW Him, three times. Jesus, knew this is advance before Peter ever did it, yet Jesus still called Peter His disciple. The truth is, Peter did know Jesus, didn't he? Peter knew Jesus, yet Jesus said that Peter would deny it. Nevertheless, in fact, reality, and truth, Peter knew Him.Peter did know Jesus... and Jesus knew Peter. That is all that matters. Works are inconsequential. The truth is that Jesus knew Peter, and Peter knew Jesus... and Jesus will lose none of them that His Father gives Him. [url="http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+6%3A28-40&version1=9]NONE, EVER.[/url]

bigape · May 26, 2008

Well put, Craig19 When you said.....“When I grew up I knew about Jesus and believed, but I was a druggie a smoker I slept around I did everything. I was not going to heaven I thought I believed but I was lying to myself.” The way that I put this statement, is “You would have missed heaven, by 18 inches”. (The distance from your head to your heart

You just had a “head knowledge”, not a “heart knowledge”!

sosthenes · May 26, 2008

(RichardBurger;50433)
Since faith is the same thing as trust, then those that preach faith alone is just not enough, are also saying that trusting in God is just not enough.
John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5 is a verse that includes the definition of being an overcomer and souls have to die (John 12:24) to bring forth fruit and you really have to die in the flesh before you "soma" (body) can be made alive in the spirit (1 Peter 3:18). Works alone cannot achieve this

sa 127:1 [[A Song of degrees for Solomon.]] Except the LORD build the house, they labour (work) in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh [but] in vain.There is a switch somewhere in Hebrews 11 where people didn't receive the promises and it switches between what people did and didn't receive to what God does through faith. I don't have the patience to draw it out but receiving not the promises before men doesn't show people anything but it is only what God does that makes a difference in people's lives.And unless our grains die to the will of God, our works may "abide alone" unless they are in the will of God.John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

RichardBurger · May 26, 2008

(TallMan;50435)
Calvary was to enable Pentecost.Jesus death and ascension was to allow his Life to be received:-"they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . . .For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:4, 33, 39)Have you received that Richard, if so, why not preach it?Anyone who rejects the NEED for that rejects Jesus and makes his sacrifice of no effect."he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5-6)
You said "Have you received that Richard, if so, why not preach it?"What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that I have to believe as you do and preach what is acceptable to you. Don't get all arrogant on me and do not make me the subject of your replies by addressing your remarks directly at me and in doing it, make it personal.Richard :naughty:

RichardBurger · May 26, 2008

(Craig19;50440)
Richard I think you are mis understanding what people are saying. You see the problem is a lot of people say they believe in Jesus, but the way they live does not show it. Lets look at examples I believe Jesus died for all my sins so no matter what I do I am going to heaven. I can sleep around steel drug ect. its all forgiven. Now the thing is people that do these things do not truly believe although they say they do.I do not think anyone is preaching faith is not enough. What they are trying to say is if you claim you have faith your works will be evidence of that.I think we as humans just mis the point here. Your works are basically proof of your belief no one is saying you get into heaven by works. But here comes the problem which causes the debate if works show your faith and my works are better than yours my faith is better. WRONG. You see this is why God tells us not to judge because He knew we would not be able to get it right. Luckely God sees our hearts.I just want to use myself as an example to explain better. When I grew up I knew about Jesus and believed, but I was a druggie a smoker I slept around I did everything. I was not going to heaven I thought I believed but I was lying to myself. Then God came into my life I gave up everything drinking smoking drugging sleeping around it all. Why because I really started to believe. Now I gave it all up but I still make mistakes a couple of times I smoked again I slept with a girl, but what was different in my heart I was trying to keep away from evil, God knew that and helps me to turn from these things everyday. Although people would have judged me and said according to your life your not a Christian I would know what was going on in my heart. What you do does not determine where you go but it does help you see in which way you are heading and whether you truly believe or not. But only God can judge that. You see without Jesus you make mistakes and do not care about it, with Him you still make mistakes but you feel guilty about it because you really believe and thus your actions or works change.I think what people are trying to say is not that works get you into heaven but works can be used to judge your faith which you need to get into heaven.
You said; “I do not think anyone is preaching faith is not enough. What they are trying to say is if you claim you have faith your works will be evidence of that.”****No they aren’t. They are plainly saying that a person “MUST” and “HAS TO HAVE” works in order to be a saved person. The problem with all this garbage is that NO ONE has to prove anything to other men and God certainly knows whether a person has faith in Him.Religious Christianity has used James’ statement as a whip to teach works and I will not buy it. In all the religious books I read the writer starts out with lip service that faith, not works, saves and then spends the rest of the book saying a child of God “MUST HAVE” or “HAS TO HAVE” works. In doing so he is placing them under the law of works.If the writers used the words “WANT TO” to or “SHOULD” I could buy it. But that is not the words they use and I know the reason why. There certainly is a “religious works theology” and it has, and will, send many to hell.If faith in the work of Jesus on the cross is not enough then no one will be saved. Why? Because God has already said that man’s works are as filthy as dirty rags.I really get tired of people saying their works prove their faith and then they never show those works to prove their faith. They won’t even list them. The truth is that they are not doing anymore than anyone else. They just want to make a show of it.Richard

Christina · May 26, 2008

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.Works is something a truly saved person should desire to do they are not required nor do they save anyone. Are we rewared for our works? Yes, our works are our garments we wear during the millieuim. One can be saved but caught naked without works. But one can not have works alone and be saved.

treeoflife · May 26, 2008

(RichardBurger;50476)
You said; “I do not think anyone is preaching faith is not enough. What they are trying to say is if you claim you have faith your works will be evidence of that.”****No they aren’t. They are plainly saying that a person “MUST” and “HAS TO HAVE” works in order to be a saved person. The problem with all this garbage is that NO ONE has to prove anything to other men and God certainly knows whether a person has faith in Him.Religious Christianity has used James’ statement as a whip to teach works and I will not buy it. In all the religious books I read the writer starts out with lip service that faith, not works, saves and then spends the rest of the book saying a child of God “MUST HAVE” or “HAS TO HAVE” works. In doing so he is placing them under the law of works.If the writers used the words “WANT TO” to or “SHOULD” I could buy it. But that is not the words they use and I know the reason why. There certainly is a “religious works theology” and it has, and will, send many to hell.If faith in the work of Jesus on the cross is not enough then no one will be saved. Why? Because God has already said that man’s works are as filthy as dirty rags.I really get tired of people saying their works prove their faith and then they never show those works to prove their faith. They won’t even list them. The truth is that they are not doing anymore than anyone else. They just want to make a show of it.Richard

I agree with Richard (and Kriss). It cannot be works and faith, otherwise Jesus came in vain. Which, if you think about it for awhile... we can be amazed by His grace, that He would only come to die if He were to require no works on our behalf. Think about it... why else would He do it, unless He indend to do what we could not? He can save the most wicked of sinners, or the slightest of sinners all with one action -- His death and resurrection. No matter where a sinner is, Christ has freed us from all unrighteousness. From Hitler, to Billy Graham. The only sin we can commit is refusing to at any time believe on Him who saved us.We don't have to figure out what works are so great they are good enough for salvation, or so evil they are bad enough for damnation... none of it matters. Jesus died for all sins and every sin. He did the work for us.We like to think we are righteous sometimes, and we want to point to other people and say, "NO WAY that person can get into heaven... look how they live." Indeed, they may be living a sinful life and they may need rebuked, taught, corrected, or left to their ways so that someday they will return our Father... but nevertheless, evil deeds does not turn salvation that was once perfected *in the Spirit* now required to be perfected in the flesh.Paul wrote to the Galatians correcting them of this. Thinking that salvation, which they recieved in spirit, by faith... could now be perfected... or truly understood only by performing works.Paul says, "Oh foolish Galatians!"It is by Grace alone! Praise the Lord x infinity. Now, lets inspire, correct, and encourage eachother into good works. Lets live a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ.

Should we continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.

treeoflife · May 26, 2008

(kriss;50479)
Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.Works is something a truly saved person should desire to do they are not required nor do they save anyone. Are we rewared for our works? Yes, our works are our garments we wear during the millieuim. One can be saved but caught naked without works. But one can not have works alone and be saved.
Amen. It is important for us to see works as an oppertunity to bless our Father, to bless others, and lastly to bless ourselves. Works are an oppertunity to place mounds of treasure in heaven... by loving our Father's will above all else.But, works do not save, by any means at all. I will be happy to see the poor, penniless soul who failed to place His spiritual treasure in heaven, the most lazy of all saved individuals (I do not get into specifics), but who is richly blessed with in the Kingdom of God with salvation due to Christ's work on the cross, apart from his or her works. Along side the man or woman who is also in heaven who has piles and piles of treasure because of his or her works that were done in the name of Christ

Then... sadly... there are those who were cast out, who said, "Lord Lord" and said they did many works in His name... but Jesus says, "I never knew you..."Truly, the only thing that saves. To know Him.My avatar of "forgiven" is my favorite painting/drawing... it shows a man who is fainting from agony of trying to judge (having a gaval in his hand), but is Jesus who holds him up the whole time. This was much like myself when God finally got through to me, and that I didn't have to work for my salvation any longer. He carries us all.

Craig19 · May 27, 2008

Tanks kriss what you said is what I was trying to explain by an example. I am not sure my attempt was very good, but luckely you came along.I agree totally with what has been said if someone preaches works can save you they are wrong. But I have heard a couple of teachings about James and although sometimes you might think people are saying you need works to be saved I have found that if you just look deeper into what they are trying to communicate you might see you actually agree with them. If someone says something wrong do not immediatly disregard everything they say as a lie they may have simply made a mistake or you might of misunderstood and then disregarding them might mean you mis valuable information.

RichardBurger · May 27, 2008

I think people that teach the works theology should remember what God told Peter in a vision.Acts 10:1515 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." NKJV

goldy · May 27, 2008

(treeoflife;50488)
I agree with Richard (and Kriss). It cannot be works and faith, otherwise Jesus came in vain. Which, if you think about it for awhile... we can be amazed by His grace, that He would only come to die if He were to require no works on our behalf. Think about it... why else would He do it, unless He indend to do what we could not? He can save the most wicked of sinners, or the slightest of sinners all with one action -- His death and resurrection. No matter where a sinner is, Christ has freed us from all unrighteousness. From Hitler, to Billy Graham. The only sin we can commit is refusing to at any time believe on Him who saved us.We don't have to figure out what works are so great they are good enough for salvation, or so evil they are bad enough for damnation... none of it matters. Jesus died for all sins and every sin. He did the work for us.We like to think we are righteous sometimes, and we want to point to other people and say, "NO WAY that person can get into heaven... look how they live." Indeed, they may be living a sinful life and they may need rebuked, taught, corrected, or left to their ways so that someday they will return our Father... but nevertheless, evil deeds does not turn salvation that was once perfected *in the Spirit* now required to be perfected in the flesh.Paul wrote to the Galatians correcting them of this. Thinking that salvation, which they recieved in spirit, by faith... could now be perfected... or truly understood only by performing works.Paul says, "Oh foolish Galatians!"It is by Grace alone! Praise the Lord x infinity. Now, lets inspire, correct, and encourage eachother into good works. Lets live a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ.

Should we continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
So I'm sealed in Christ, right? Nothing can take that away from me? WOOOOHOOO!! This just opened the door for everything!! I know I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm going to go out tonight and get really drunk, maybe even hook up with a few prostitutes. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to 38th Street and buy some crack and smoke that stuff up too. I probably shouldn't do that stuff, but I'm sealed in Christ, right? And I do love Him and have accepted Him into my heart. Now don't give me that business of, "You weren't truly saved" I love Jesus, I'm just a little weak, you know?This will be awesome. I've been wanting to drive a BMW for awhile. Maybe I'll go to the dealership and steal me one of them....hopefully the cops won't catch me.

Jordan · May 27, 2008

(goldy;50586)
(treeoflife;50488)
I agree with Richard (and Kriss). It cannot be works and faith, otherwise Jesus came in vain. Which, if you think about it for awhile... we can be amazed by His grace, that He would only come to die if He were to require no works on our behalf. Think about it... why else would He do it, unless He indend to do what we could not? He can save the most wicked of sinners, or the slightest of sinners all with one action -- His death and resurrection. No matter where a sinner is, Christ has freed us from all unrighteousness. From Hitler, to Billy Graham. The only sin we can commit is refusing to at any time believe on Him who saved us.We don't have to figure out what works are so great they are good enough for salvation, or so evil they are bad enough for damnation... none of it matters. Jesus died for all sins and every sin. He did the work for us.We like to think we are righteous sometimes, and we want to point to other people and say, "NO WAY that person can get into heaven... look how they live." Indeed, they may be living a sinful life and they may need rebuked, taught, corrected, or left to their ways so that someday they will return our Father... but nevertheless, evil deeds does not turn salvation that was once perfected *in the Spirit* now required to be perfected in the flesh.Paul wrote to the Galatians correcting them of this. Thinking that salvation, which they recieved in spirit, by faith... could now be perfected... or truly understood only by performing works.Paul says, "Oh foolish Galatians!"It is by Grace alone! Praise the Lord x infinity. Now, lets inspire, correct, and encourage eachother into good works. Lets live a life worthy of the Gospel of Christ. Should we continue to sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
So I'm sealed in Christ, right? Nothing can take that away from me? WOOOOHOOO!! This just opened the door for everything!! I know I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm going to go out tonight and get really drunk, maybe even hook up with a few prostitutes. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to 38th Street and buy some crack and smoke that stuff up too. I probably shouldn't do that stuff, but I'm sealed in Christ, right? And I do love Him and have accepted Him into my heart. Now don't give me that business of, "You weren't truly saved" I love Jesus, I'm just a little weak, you know?This will be awesome. I've been wanting to drive a BMW for awhile. Maybe I'll go to the dealership and steal me one of them....hopefully the cops won't catch me.What you said Goldy is in vain...it doesn't work that way. It is not about what God can do for you. It is about what we can do for God.

treeoflife · May 27, 2008

(goldy;50586)
So I'm sealed in Christ, right? Nothing can take that away from me? WOOOOHOOO!! This just opened the door for everything!! I know I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm going to go out tonight and get really drunk, maybe even hook up with a few prostitutes. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to 38th Street and buy some crack and smoke that stuff up too. I probably shouldn't do that stuff, but I'm sealed in Christ, right? And I do love Him and have accepted Him into my heart. Now don't give me that business of, "You weren't truly saved" I love Jesus, I'm just a little weak, you know?This will be awesome. I've been wanting to drive a BMW for awhile. Maybe I'll go to the dealership and steal me one of them....hopefully the cops won't catch me.
Amen, you can do all those things and be secure in salvation. Your sin is not a matter of salvation, because salvation is not by works.However, I cannot say amen to the lifestyle. It is very foolish. You will waste the life God has given you--don't count on God using you to bring anyone into His kingdom. Perhaps you can serve as an example of how not to live. Furthermore, you may very well suffer great physical consequences (punishment from others in the world, perhaps jail, or other physical/health problems) for these choices in this life, and you will have to own up for it in heaven when we all go before Christ to give an account. We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done. It isn't a matter of salvation, but Jesus says to put our treasure in heaven... and I recommend you do that instead. If you want to be a waste on earth, and a popper in heaven (though saved by His grace)... by all means. But it's a dumb choice.

Letsgofishing · May 27, 2008

(kriss;50479)
Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?" This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things? The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26). Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works. Works is something a truly saved person should desire to do they are not required nor do they save anyone. Are we rewared for our works? Yes, our works are our garments we wear during the millieuim. One can be saved but caught naked without works.But one can not have works alone and be saved.
Its funny Kriss, you have just explained the catholic belief of salvation by faith and works.

We are saved by faith alone "but if the person claims to be a believer but has no good works in his life,he is likely to not have a genuine faith in Christ"-Kriss you either have faith and works. If you have only works you are not saved, and if you have only faith, you are not living your faith. good to hear you agree with us catholics for once

.

Christina · May 27, 2008

(goldy;50586)
So I'm sealed in Christ, right? Nothing can take that away from me? WOOOOHOOO!! This just opened the door for everything!! I know I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm going to go out tonight and get really drunk, maybe even hook up with a few prostitutes. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to 38th Street and buy some crack and smoke that stuff up too. I probably shouldn't do that stuff, but I'm sealed in Christ, right? And I do love Him and have accepted Him into my heart. Now don't give me that business of, "You weren't truly saved" I love Jesus, I'm just a little weak, you know?This will be awesome. I've been wanting to drive a BMW for awhile. Maybe I'll go to the dealership and steal me one of them....hopefully the cops won't catch me.
What does that have to do with anything how is it you aquiant going out and getting drunk with works? Sis are sins has nothing to do with works. If you want to go sin then we have a little thing in Christianity called repentance of sins. You are arguing this point from your catholic point of veiw not from scripture. And it was the reason for the split in the church so the fact you are on the other side is understandable but it doesnt change the Word of God.

Letsgofishing · May 27, 2008

(kriss;50595)
What does that have to do with anything how is it you aquiant going out and getting drunk with works? Sis are sins has nothing to do with works. If you want to go sin then we have a little thing in Christianity called repentance of sins. You are arguing this point from your catholic point of veiw not from scripture. And it was the reason for the split in the church so the fact you are on the other side is understandable but it doesnt change the Word of God.
Just asking Kriss, but what exactly is repentance. wouldn't that be considered work??

Is faith (belief) enough?

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