I think that has a lot to do with it, but instead of picking the right one, why not try to change the one we're in? That being said, I agree there are some churches that you're better off leaving. We had to.
How much ungodly behavior do you see in the church?
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I think more could be done by continually asking that question, "Where and how can I do better?" than a hundred incidences of concerning ourselves with the behavior of others.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes indeed partiality but also, coldness, shunning, cliques, backbiting...and yes, I do believe this is one of many reasons the Church lacks power. Lot's of legalism, lots of judgment and criticism.
I would say also that there are more pew warmers in Churches today than true Christians...I think it is a good thing to visit many local bodies with prayer before attending one. No church is perfect but, some have more of the Spirits presence...IMHO ♥
Nancy
Well-Known Member
The Pastor And The Glass Of Water
“A lady went to her Pastor and said ‘Pastor, I won’t be going to your church anymore.’
The Pastor responded ‘But why?’
The lady said ‘Ah! I saw a woman gossipping [sic] about another member; a man that is a hypocrite; the worship team living wrong; people looking at their phone during service; among so many other things wrong in your church.’
The Pastor replied ‘OK. But before you go, do me a favor: take a full glass of water and walk around the church three times without spilling a drop on the ground. Afterwards, leave the church if you desire.’
The lady thought: too easy! She walked three times around the church as the Pastor had asked. When she finished she told the Pastor she was ready to leave.
The Pastor said, ‘Before you leave I want to ask you one more question. When you were walking around the church, did you see anyone gossipping [sic]?’
The lady replied ‘No.’
‘Did you see any hypocrites?’
The lady said ‘No.’
‘Anyone looking at their phone?’
‘No.’
‘You know why?’
‘No.’
‘You were focused on the glass, to make sure you didn’t stumble and spill any water. It’s the same with our life. When we keep our eyes on Jesus, we don’t have time to see the mistakes of others. We will reach out a helping hand to them and concentrate on our own walk with the Lord.”
Woman Threatens To Leave Church But Then The Pastor Uses Cup Of Water To Set Her Straight
“A lady went to her Pastor and said ‘Pastor, I won’t be going to your church anymore.’
The Pastor responded ‘But why?’
The lady said ‘Ah! I saw a woman gossipping [sic] about another member; a man that is a hypocrite; the worship team living wrong; people looking at their phone during service; among so many other things wrong in your church.’
The Pastor replied ‘OK. But before you go, do me a favor: take a full glass of water and walk around the church three times without spilling a drop on the ground. Afterwards, leave the church if you desire.’
The lady thought: too easy! She walked three times around the church as the Pastor had asked. When she finished she told the Pastor she was ready to leave.
The Pastor said, ‘Before you leave I want to ask you one more question. When you were walking around the church, did you see anyone gossipping [sic]?’
The lady replied ‘No.’
‘Did you see any hypocrites?’
The lady said ‘No.’
‘Anyone looking at their phone?’
‘No.’
‘You know why?’
‘No.’
‘You were focused on the glass, to make sure you didn’t stumble and spill any water. It’s the same with our life. When we keep our eyes on Jesus, we don’t have time to see the mistakes of others. We will reach out a helping hand to them and concentrate on our own walk with the Lord.”
Woman Threatens To Leave Church But Then The Pastor Uses Cup Of Water To Set Her Straight
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
They who practice sin are slaves to sin. You will know them by their fruits. You can be certain that hypocrites have no place in God's Kingdom.
Consider how well most of the prophets in the OT were received by the natural Israelites. Not well at all. Moses himself even when he accepted the assignment and led the people was continuously under attack by those people he led. The Levites attacked him. His own sister and brother, Miriam and Aaron, attacked him. When Moses complained to God, God assured him that it was not Moses being rejected, but God Himself.
As for visions, we all must have a vision if we are not to die or to remain in death. Will we ever to see that vision better than as through a glass darkly?
"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
God will accomplish His plan, His purpose. If you or I or anyone else does not reap the good results of that plan, whose fault is that?
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11
There was never more than there is now, because there was always God. If churches have failed in their purposes or goals, has it not been because someone was not looking to God first? Was not because someone had their own purposes or goals in first place rather than God's?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
If we are putting first things first what will be added? All that is needed to accomplish God's plan. All we have to do is keep our own priorities straight. We cannot fix other people's problems. God cannot fix people's problems if the people won't allow it. That is the negative side of free will. We have the authority while we have time, to reject God's help... even though without it, we are lost.
Don't jump too fast into the driver's seat unless you know for sure that God has called you to be the driver.
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called," Eph 4:1
What is your calling? What is your vocation for God? God knows and if you ask of Him He will certainly tell you and lead you.
Truth
Well-Known Member
I will have to do some research to pull up some Scripture to support what I will have to say, so be ready to defend the Modern Church of today, or be willing to hear the Faith that was first delivered to Disciples. be back as soon as I can!
How many people seek to live a crucified life....a life surrendered to God in simplicity? I think the focus has shifted to people and their wants, needs and aspirations,...as opposed to Christ and the will of God.
Yes, this what I see in most people and therefore in their churches.
There are exceptional individuals, but they are exceptional. I have one friend who visits me periodically who is one of those exceptions. He came to the USA from Mexico many years ago. God brought us together a bit more than 30 years ago and although there is a physical distance between us now, we still meet for a sandwich or coffee and the Lord once in a while.
Online there are a few like yourself I have encountered but in the flesh, when I really get to know people I soon become a heretic or a lost soul in their eyes when they begin to see what I really believe. I am on the Lord's side even if I do stumble now and again. I keep on asking God to help me get back up and make a go at again. Now that my pastor has no church home [building and physical gathering place] any more, neither do I. We will see what God has for me next. I'm 75, but Moses was 80 when he was called to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. Am I too old? God knows!
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
SG, there have been God's mouthpieces here but they are mostly ignored or maligned. It is no different to Israel of old who were sent God's mouthpieces only to reject them, yet in their own eyes these mouthpieces were deemed unworthy and trouble makers.
Any statement that is prefaced with 'what some people think' or similar, has in it the hallmarks of self righteousness.
How though? Do you have any suggestions for pastors as a whole?
I knew a counselor who told me that she worked with a local college and handed out an anonymous survey to students there, asking them if they'd ever been sexually assaulted. She was shocked to learn that more than half the class stated that they were. That's not a good sign in our culture - I think it shows an abhorrent decline in morals that I don't know if we can recover from. America has become an unhealthy society. One of my family members runs a business and said that the people he deals with are so corrupt and he constantly has to be on guard.
That's why I think it's good to get your finger on the pulse of churches to see how we're doing as a whole. I don't think we're doing so good. I'm going to give any suggestions to several pastors to see if it can possibly spread beyond them. My pastor routinely meets with other pastors. We have to have vision. I don't think we should sit back and shake our heads - we should try to change things. There are people who are hurt by the world and then go to church and are hurt worse. I think the wounding in the church is worse because you expect better.
We personally have been in three separate churches where we were hurt. One was a strict Presbyterian church where there was an overt "caste" system. I'll never forget the time we sat in a pew reserved for certain members by accident. I turned around and the look of absolute HATE was on the face of an usher. He marched over to us and DEMANDED that we get up and move. He looked ready to blow a gasket. The pastor would preen the feathers of certain members publicly. It was so obvious what he was doing. They fed pride in that church. I recall everyone backbiting a member because he took his kids to McDonalds on a Sunday and that was forbidden because you're making someone else work on a Sunday. My husband said it was legalistic and we left. The pastor's wife heartbreakingly committed suicide. I didn't blame her - I would not want to be stuck with those uppity, snooty, people.
The next church my husband got us to go to was a disaster. It was the exact opposite. Loosey-goosey. Our daughter took one of her friends to church and sat at a different table than us for bible study. She said that a woman came up to them and told them they had to move because this was where the Sullivans sat. My daughter was independent and said that there were other empty tables. The woman became irate and shouted "This is where the Sullivans sit now you and your fat little friend get up and MOVE!" - in church. The family that owned the church were corrupt. They hurt me deeply by something corrupt they did. They had hoodwinked my husband and I couldn't convince him what they were until he found out for himself - but not before costing us a lot of money. They were later shamed nationwide for something corrupt.
The next church gave me a bad feeling from the start. I wish I had listened to my instincts. The hoity-toity pastors were partial and said that we had to "submit" to them because God put them in the positions they were in. They turned one of my children off so badly that she refuses to go to an independent bible church today. I asked the opinions of 11 other pastors online and every single one agreed with me. I gave the pastors a copy of the responses and the head pastor said I "told them what I wanted them to hear." I was an open book. I told him to email each of the pastors telling the story from HIS side - he refused. He didn't want the light of others who were in the same position as him to shine on his behavior and the behavior of his cronies. He super-spiritualized his sin and the sin of his crony pastors.
One of the elders who they held in high esteem used to want to give me a "Christian hug" a lot. A woman knows when something isn't a "Christian hug." I knew he had cheated on his wife and he was on the hunt. The wife puffed herself up because she was in some position. I would have liked to tell her what her husband was up to. She probably would have dismissed it or tried to spiritualize it or blame me for her husband's sinful behavior. Deep down, I think she knew at some level - she just didn't want to face it. She built her little house of cards in the little kingdom they built where they were the kings and queens. We left and later learned that the prideful main pastor left. After pulling their prideful acts on members of the church, I guess they turned their guns on each other.
This is just an overview - the specifics are actually worse. I just wonder how many people are wounded in churches and write them off? How many people forego fellowship and iron-sharpening-iron because of sinful pride, or other sinful behavior of church members?
In each of the above cases, it looked like God dealt with at least some of them. I've been reading a book title "Into Battle" by Arthur Wallace. He said that churches are anemic today because Christians don't face that we're in a battle. I wonder how much Satan is at work in these churches and Christians don't realize it. We already know sinful flesh is in this type of behavior. I just wonder if it's something that Christians should bring up to their individual church leadership. If we did this, the church would probably hold a lot more power than it does. I see a lackadaisical way in people - they claim that things are going to get worse and accept it. I think this is the time for Christians to get stronger.
I see the country getting worse and my family is in it, and I have concern for these next generations. We all seem to accept that it's going to get worse but the church isn't being the restraining power that it should be. Does anyone else feel this?
I've had that too - when it comes to money you encounter the law of fang and claw. We hired a company to install windows and were happy we dealt with a "Christian" - what an ordeal. He flubbed the order then tried forcing us to keep the window that he got wrong. I refused because I didn't want that size window. We just dealt with a "Christian" lawyer who stole money from my father's estate. When it comes to money, people aren't Christians anymore.
I understand - I recall some of the prophets were stoned.
What do you mean by "what some people think"?
Nancy
Well-Known Member
I wonder if Q.T. is talking about one who "thinks" they know the thoughts of another?? Not sure. ♥
Yikes! I've been in close proximity to some of what you describe. But I wonder how much $$$ in church overhead has to do with pastors saying just enough to remain Christian and not enough to drive contributors away? The result being if people leave thinking shallow positive thoughts, and feeling good about themselves, they did their job.
My personal solution, not for most, is to drop out and worship and study at home. And then visit churches, not making any commitments. If dropping money in the offering plate bothers my conscience, that's where I draw the line and move on. But I've learned a lot from many denominations doing this. But never buying their whole ticket. When my daughter was young we had daily bible studies to supplement the church's endeavors. We called it "home churching" as opposed to home schooling. We even learned the Greek Alphabet together along with phonics. This along with studying theology over the years.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Yes, Soverign Grace, this is part of why the church lacks power. It's because respect of persons leads to resentments, and this in turn leads to divisions, which then leads to the quenching of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:26-32, 1 Thessalonians 5:15-24).
What you have to understand here is that there IS no holiness without power of the Holy Spirit. None. And while churches should be ablaze with the Holy Spirit, what we instead have are dying embers at best. While there should be a downpour, what we instead have is the slightest little drizzle if anything at all. Irresponsible teaching is mostly to blame. Most are just fine with this situation so they bring no attention to the problem, and don't implore their congregations to seek God in fasting and prayer for a return to Christianity the way it was practiced during New Testament times. What you end up with is churches just putting on an act. They play church rather give themselves to incessant prayer every night for years if necessary until they again see the Holy Spirit poured out in power to heal the sick, raise the dead, and prophesy by the Spirit of God. And because most are satisfied, this is where they will stay until something changes.
As for the point about the prophets being hated, say these things to most churches today and you will not be well-received. It shines the light on both their spiritual immaturity and their sin. But doing so with those who have ears to hear is necessary if we are ever going to see things turn around. I strongly believe we will eventually, but not anytime soon. The church - especially in the West - is going to have go through Hell first, until she wakes up from her spiritual lethargy and finally gets it together, and that's taking a long time to get here. Too long.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
Btw, I've seen more partially from pastors and leaders than from anyone else.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
When I read through the various posts often there is reference talking in the third person. In other words, not about you personally or about themselves but about 'what other people think'. It's a way of making them sound authoritative in their own view, of cleverly pointing the finger but also of not taking responsibility for their own limited understanding. It is usually accompanied by many words.
The same principle surfaces in several short prefaces said in slightly different ways.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I've heard of Christians turning to home groups. The place I do most of my growing is in personal bible study. I still like being with other believers and we go to bible study when I'm able.
I think it's a shame though that churches are failing their members this way. I learned a lot through all those experiences and I know exactly what you mean by "pastors saying just enough to remain Christian." One thing I do have control over is whether or not I financially support a church, and I couldn't, in good conscience, put money into a plate at the above churches.
I've seen pastors willing to sell out Christ worse than Judas Iscariot. There are a lot of Judas' in the world. The one loose-goosey church we went to were so corrupt that the pastor left. All the doubts I had about them, the pastor confirmed when he invited my husband & I over his house. It was too late though - they had already cheated us. I learned to trust my instincts, but my husband didn't trust my instincts and we were badly burned. The corrupt family replaced the pastor and I emailed him. His wife I believe, is who answered me and kept asking what I wanted. She screened his emails I suppose. Finally I sent the message through her and asked her to pass on the message. I told her that Sullivan's cheated us and I wanted to know how the Word of God came out of that Pastor's mouth.
She never responded.
They knew the family who owned the church was corrupt and cheated and hurt a lot of people, but the pastor was willing to sell his soul for 30 pieces of silver.
So I learned how even Pastors sell out biblical precepts when it comes to money. I had my suspicions, but that family worshipped money, and didn't care if they had to cheat others to get it. I think they were stealing from the donations. When my mother died we had her funeral there and in lieu of flowers they asked for church donations. I had a handful of cash and handed it over to one of the family members. She snatched that cash from my hand like a dog snapping for a bone. Looking back, I wished I had never agreed to donations for that corrupt church.
The only thing I can do now is warn others about that "church" - the way I was warned early on, but my husband refused to listen. I agree that you need to find out for yourself, but if someone else warns you, I think you should be on guard. - I guess the bitterness still comes out now and then and I try to forgive, but it's hard.
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