WHAT THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS AND THE MEANING OF 666

Enoch111 said:

Yes. They were mistaken.

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They got it right The Antichrist had to have arisen among the Ten Horns of the fallen Roman Empire...that was all the way back in the 6th century, a fact that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurists seem to willfully ignore.

In the Reformed understanding of the history of redemption, therefore, there is no ultimate separation between Israel and the church.

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Of course there is separation. The Israelites had 70 Weeks to get their act together and they blew it. Now, the church is God's chosen herald to the world that the Savior has come, and they will proclaim it until Jesus comes in power and glory at His Second Coming, at which time the church will be "caught up" to Him.

biloqewu said:

Yes there is, the book of Revelation says "5 kings are fallen and one is", and the king that currently was in authority when Revelation was given to John were the Romans,

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I used to think that way too...that is until someone dropped these two 10 Megaton truth bombs:

1) WHAT ABOUT THE PHILISTINES?
Didn't they conquer and rule over Israel for a time, as well? The unwelcome fact is that your criteria for including Egypt and Assyria also applies to the Philistines, which means the only way to exclude the Philistines from the list of 5 kings is to do so subjectively. Well, what if I subjectively demand they be included? Can you see that the only way to win at the "subjectivity game" is simply not to play and just stick to the Biblically established timeline which begins with Babylon?

2) THE "ARE FALLEN" EXTEND INTO THE FUTURE
What John is being shown is the "Judgment of the Great Whore" which happens at the time of the end - the period just before the end of time. This demands that the compound verb "are fallen" applies to the condition of the world at that time, not the time that John is receiving Revelation of this Judgment. Thus, it is not necessary that the fifth king is fallen at the time of John's Revelation, Babylon may continue to be the starting point from which the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are reckoned, and this paves the way for an interpretation which best satisfies the many elements of Revelation 17 without the level of dogmatic rigidity for which you seem to have an affinity.
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I am fully acquainted with your ideas on Revelation 17 and once accepted the basis for them as truth.
You are not acquainted with what I now believe is the best explanation of Revelation 17.

Sherlock Holmes is credited with saying, "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data", so please take an hour or so to consider what might just shift your entire paradigm:

Phoneman777 said:

The Israelites had 70 Weeks to get their act together and they blew it.

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Only 69 weeks (483 years) were fulfilled. The 70th week will be fulfilled in the future. So there goes your theory,

Phoneman777 said:

The Israelites had 70 Weeks to get their act together and they blew it.

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It is my view that this portion of Phoneman777's post is factually correct. The 70 weeks of years for Israel and Jerusalem to repent of their sins and to stop continuing in their sins was completed at the beginning of the fifth age.

Enoch111 said:

Only 69 weeks (483 years) were fulfilled. The 70th week will be fulfilled in the future. So there goes your theory,

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It is my view that this post is fundamentally wrong. The Dan.9:25 prophecy has been fulfilled in full.

The one week of years of Dan. 9:27 is still a future distant event. Both the Dan. 9:25 prophecy and the Dan. 9:27 prophecy are independent prophecies that will unfold independently of each other.

Shalom

biloqewu said:

The reason the heads of the beast are "heads" are not only because they were kingdoms of great authority in their time, which were empires at that time, but they were also kingdoms where Satan dwelled and was enthroned in, who is the head of the nations in this current evil aeon. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Byzantium, and now the USE are all such kingdoms. The Philistines were no such kingdom to be considered a head. I perceive you are merely seeking to believe in anything else, as nonsensical as it may be, as to not believe the sound and logical truth I am telling you concerning the heads of the beast.

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What do you mean "the Philistines were no such kingdom to be considered a head"? They stole the Ark of the Covenant, constantly raided and harassed Israel, and are considered among "the most dangerous enemies of ancient Israel" by Israeli Deutoronomist sources...not to mention they served Dagon, which is Satan.

Egypt is little more than a third world nobody, Syria gets smacked around by the West like a red-headed stepchild, the economy of Greece is collapsing, Rome would be as irrelevant as it was in the days of Romulus and Remus without the Vatican there, Byzantium is...I don't even know what it is...isn't it overrun by Muslims??? and the "United States of Europe" has a little problem called "BREXIT", as well as other issues that make it about as "united" as a Van Halen reunion tour launched without DLR or Mike Anthony.

Enoch111 said:

Only 69 weeks (483 years) were fulfilled. The 70th week will be fulfilled in the future. So there goes your theory,

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You cannot point to a single other numerically specific time prophecy in Scripture which inserts a "gap" nor can you explain how a "70 Weeks" prophecy can still be referred to as "70 Weeks" when you claim that a "2,000 year gap" has been inserted.

I challenge you to go to work and tell your boss that the reason why you got back from your 12:00 noon to 1:00 lunch break an hour late is because "there was a 60 minute "gap" between 12:59 and 1:00 and see how that goes over for you.

Phoneman777 said:

You cannot point to a single other numerically specific time prophecy in Scripture which inserts a "gap" nor can you explain how a "70 Weeks" prophecy can still be referred to as "70 Weeks" when you claim that a "2,000 year gap" has been inserted.

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It is not I who is claiming this. Scripture makes it perfectly clear (for those who have eyes to see).

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom 11:25,26)

Jay Ross said:

It is my view that this post is fundamentally wrong. The Dan.9:25 prophecy has been fulfilled in full.

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If that is correct how is it that everlasting righteousness and peace have not as yet been established on earth?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:7)

You just have to look around you and see that this is yet future.

Enoch111 said:

If that is correct how is it that everlasting righteousness and peace have not as yet been established on earth?

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Would you not confess to being saved yet look around, are you in heaven? These things are established upon what you and others call the finished work of Christ on the cross...they are promised to those who believe. As for the government and the kingdom...that has been placed in the hands of Christ all He needs do is return to claim what is already rightfully and legally His.
The timeline Enoch is undeniable. 69 weeks to the baptism (Messiah the Prince...His anointing) the last week spent confirming His covenant with Israel (the first 3 1/2 years in person, the second through the disciples having been instructed to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel until the stoning of Stephen which began the first of Christian persecutions which prompted the gospel to go to the Gentiles) in the midst of which (week) He was cut off, but not for Himself. He even referred to this covenant at the Passover meal with HIs disciples.
Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham

2Matt 26:8 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Enoch111 said:

It is not I who is claiming this. Scripture makes it perfectly clear (for those who have eyes to see).

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom 11:25,26)

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"If ye be Christ's (CHRISTIANS), then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." It is impossible to correctly understand who New Testament Israel is - and who New Testament Gentiles are - if we insist on ignoring that Old Testament Israel is no longer favored by God as "His people", but now there is "neither Jew nor Gentile" but we are all one in Christ Jesus"...

and that "Israel" simply means "overcomers in Christ who belong to Christ" and "Gentile" means "slaves to sin which are out of Christ" - the "time of the Gentiles" refers to the papal apostasy of those who "say they are Jews and are not, but do lie".

Enoch111 said:

If that is correct how is it that everlasting righteousness and peace have not as yet been established on earth?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:7)

You just have to look around you and see that this is yet future.

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Where does it say "on Earth"? "Everlasting righteousness and peace to His people through His blood" can just as easily be the case. You talk about "everlasting peace and righteousness on Earth" and I'll show you condemned Christians so at peace in the righteousness of Christ that they lifted up their voices in song and praise while being burned alive during the reign of the papal Antichrist.

But even if you disagree Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled, you refuse to acknowledge the plausible deniability that the six objectives of verse 24 must be fulfilled before the end of the 70 Weeks - because the text never says they must. It simply lists those six objectives as the reason for why the 70 Weeks have been cut off - it is only by subjective interpretation that one can demand they must be fulfilled before the expiration of them.

Finally, you are stubbornly and cowardly ignoring this example previously given you, but here it is again: If I say to you, "70 Weeks are determined to get my medical degree":

• Does that mean for an absolute certainty I'll be walking across the stage in cap and gown at the end of those weeks?
• Would you schedule vacation, book a flight and hotel, and fly in to attend a graduation ceremony without first clarifying if I am in fact graduating then?
• After finding out that upon completion of those 70 Weeks, I've still got a ton of clinicals and labs before I actually get that degree, would that detract in the least from my original statement?

You insist on applying your own rigid subjective interpretation to prophecy and by it attempt to invalidate the Historicist view of the Reformers, while we Historicists need apply no such subjectivity to expose your flawed beliefs as nothing more than Jesuit Futurist nonsense that the church rejected for over 300 years before ignorant non-catholics recently began promoting them as "truth".

Jay Ross said:

It is my view that this portion of Phoneman777's post is factually correct. The 70 weeks of years for Israel and Jerusalem to repent of their sins and to stop continuing in their sins was completed at the beginning of the fifth age.

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Amen, it is the probationary period given Israel to get their act together and announce the arrival of the Messiah, but they not only failed to do so, but had Him executed.

It is my view that this post is fundamentally wrong. The Dan.9:25 prophecy has been fulfilled in full.

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I agree they have been fulfilled as well, and each of the six objectives of verse 24 can be shown as such - "...to anoint the Most Holy" can refer to Jesus' baptism; "make and end of sin" can refer to ending the dominion of sin in the lives of those who believe (Romans 6:14 KJV); etc.

The one week of years of Dan. 9:27 is still a future distant event.

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The Historicist view - which was the only view held among Protestants for centuries until Jesuit lies began taking hold just in the last 150 years - teaches Jesus fulfilled the 70th week, because prophecy is Christ centered, not Antichrist centered. You might be surprised to learn that according to the Historicist view of Daniel 9:24-27:

"In the midst of the (70th) week Messiah shall be cut off" - The 70th week can't be transported down to the end of time because the first half of it is historically nailed to the ground at the foot of the Cross. That is why some adjust the "7 years of tribulation" to "3 1/2 years", neither of which is found in Scripture.

"And the people of the prince that shall come" refers to either "messiah the prince" - Jesus - and His rebellious people who destroyed their own city and temple by driving the protecting hand of God from their midst...or..."prince Titus" and the Roman army which destroyed Jerusalem. No where in this verse is "Antichrist" found.

"And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."

• Jesus is "...the messenger of the Covenant" (Malachi 3:1)
• Jesus is "...a Covenant of the people, for a light to the Gentiles." (Isaiah 42:6)
• Jesus' blood is "the New (Covenant) which is shed for many..." (Matthew 26:28) - the same exact word in Daniel's prophecy.
• The Bible implies that "Leviathan" - Satan "animalified" - never makes covenants with God's people (Job 41:4); those who make deals with the devil do so consciously, and are not among the righteous, but are "children of pride" over which Leviathan is "king".

...Daniel, Malachi, and Isaiah are talking about Jesus Christ, not Antichrist.

• Jesus came "to confirm" God's Covenant promises to the fathers (Romans 15:8) of which New Covenant Christians alone are heirs (Galatians 3:29)
• Jesus confirmed the covenant of "salvation" for 7 years, first in Person for 3 1/2 years and then through His disciples for 3 1/2 years (Hebrews 2:3)

"...and in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifices and oblation to cease." At Jesus' death, God ripped the veil in the temple from top to bottom and abolished forever the earthly temple sacrificial economy. No more would any sacrifice or offerings be of any consequence in His sight now that the supreme sacrifice has been made. Any subsequent sacrifices are nothing more than a blasphemous BBQ, such as that which Jesuit Futurists await in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, which they erroneously call "the temple of God", which temple God will NEVER call as such, seeing that the resumption of such sacrifices will be an official, global announcement to all heaven and earth, "Here's what we think of Your so called "Lamb of God".

Antichrist sits in the "temple of God" - the church - today, showing himself that he is God, and his Jesuits have successfully duped many Protestants into accepting sensationalism over substance.

Enoch111 said:

If that is correct how is it that everlasting righteousness and peace have not as yet been established on earth?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa 9:7)

You just have to look around you and see that this is yet future.

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Others have already given my defence already against your justification rebuttal of what I have posted.

If I am Christ's, then I already have everlasting righteous and because of this I can claim that Everlasting righteousness has been brought into my life.

If I am Christ's, then I am already living in peace with God and because of this I can claim that peace has been established on the earth, however, its terms require us, humanity to complete the circular process of establishing peace by our appropriate response in accepting God's terms of peace.

The availability of receiving everlasting righteousness and peace is in your domain of responsibility, just as it is in my domain of responsibility, to put ourselves in a position to be able to receive God's gift of His Grace towards us each individually.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

The one week of years of Dan. 9:27 is still a future distant event.

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Phoneman777 said:

The Historicist view - which was the only view held among Protestants for centuries until Jesuit lies began taking hold just in the last 150 years - teaches Jesus fulfilled the 70th week, because prophecy is Christ centered, not Antichrist centered.

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The first thing is that not all prophecy is Christ centred as you claim.

In Dan. 9:26b the prince who is to come with an army we are informed in Daniel 8 is the little horn.


Now the little horn is also a wicked fallen demonic heavenly host, and as is made perfectly clear in Dan. 8, the little horn is given an army to oppose the daily sacrifices. The little horn is also responsible for leading the armies over the years that have trampled the sanctuary of God since around 250 BC and will continue to do so up to the time of the judgement of the kings of the earth at Armageddon.

Now my understanding of Daniel 9:27 is slightly different to what is the traditional translations which have been sort of based on the Historicist views in that, if I was to paraphrase this verse, I would instead write: -


Which then points towards Satan as the insolent wicked fallen demonic heavenly host as the entity who enters into a solemn covenant with the peoples of the earth in our distant future after Satan is released from the bottomless pit.

It is interesting that the timespan of the Dan. 9:26b prophecy is for a period of time until the wars in heaven are over and Satan and his cohorts are thrown out of heaven down to the earth to be imprisoned in the locked Bottomless pit. As such, the time gap between Daniel 9:26a and 9:27 is for a period approaching around three ages. This can be confirmed with a close examination of scripture for those who look diligently.

Shalom

Jay Ross said:

The first thing is that not all prophecy is Christ centred as you claim.

In Dan. 9:26b the prince who is to come with an army we are informed in Daniel 8 is the little horn.

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The fact is that there are only TWO ways of looking at "the people of the prince that shall come" to destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D. - "Messiah the Prince", Whose people destroyed themselves through driving away God's hand of protection...or..."prince Titus" of pagan Rome, whose army destroyed Jerusalem.

There is simply no mention of Antichrist in the verse at all, and interpreting it as such is based purely on subjective thinking, not the Scriptures. The two options I provided are totally Scriptural.

The Little Horn of Daniel 8 represents two things: the horizontally attacking empire of Pagan Rome (verse 9) which arose on the heels of the Greek "he goat", followed by the vertically attacking Papal Roman Antichrist system (verse 10) which attacked the throne of God.

Phoneman777 said:

There is simply no mention of Antichrist in the verse at all, and interpreting it as such is based purely on subjective thinking, not the Scriptures.

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That is incorrect. It is you who is not taking all the Scriptures into account. So please note that everything in Daniel should be properly connect.:

...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate...

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days...

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate...

And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people...

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain...

So what do we have here. There is no question that Messiah the Prince is the Lord Jesus Christ. But *the prince that shall come* is His enemy, the Antichrist. What do we learn about the Antichrist from just these few passages (and I have not even touched on *the little horn*):

1. His ultimate goal is to destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary
2. His judgment will bring desolations -- devastating calamities -- upon the earth
3. These desolations will come like a flood -- destructive and unstoppable
4. He will stop the oblations and sacrifices within the temple at Jerusalem
6. He will make a deceitful, deceptive and false covenant with the Jews for seven years (one week) and then violate that covenant after 3 1/2 years.
7. He will set up the Abomination of desolation after reigning for 3 1/2 years + a month.
8. He shall be a vile person who will come into power with a false peace and with flatteries
9. He will be a wiful king who will exalt himself above God and every god
10. He will be a vile blasphemer
11. He will worship a strange god -- in fact Satan -- called the god of forces or the god of fortresses
12. He will divide the land of Israel for gain.

Phoneman777 said:

The fact is that there are only TWO ways of looking at "the people of the prince that shall come" to destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D. - "Messiah the Prince", Whose people destroyed themselves through driving away God's hand of protection...or..."prince Titus" of pagan Rome, whose army destroyed Jerusalem.

There is simply no mention of Antichrist in the verse at all, and interpreting it as such is based purely on subjective thinking, not the Scriptures. The two options I provided are totally Scriptural.

The Little Horn of Daniel 8 represents two things: the horizontally attacking empire of Pagan Rome (verse 9) which arose on the heels of the Greek "he goat", followed by the vertically attacking Papal Roman Antichrist system (verse 10) which attacked the throne of God.

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It seems to me that you need to improve on your diligence in studying the scriptures.

Shalom