Can Jesus and Paul be reconciled on the LAW?

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bbyrd009

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I do not believe Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit but a totally different spirit. The biblical scenario clearly shows a dubious account when checked against John and Jesus.
Ha, I remember. Sorry I came so late, would love to hear one of those Qs again? But basically it's two valid povs from the two diff perspectives imo
 

Stranger

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And there you go again....
You are still no further from answering for Paul' false testimony (the event all of your Paulinist sophistry hangs upon).
You cannot and will not answer for that key point in this debate, so you have to point the gun instead of go far off ahead galloping to Peter. You consistantly miss the point of John making Peters choice of friends known through Jesus.

Why not just say "you believe" or "I have faith in" Pauls account, but you assume Paul to be correct due to Luke who paid Peter to pay Paul.
Your whole argument has no foundation, none. Zero.

You are simply still blinded by Pauls angel of light and deaf to Gods commands, Jesus' teaching of proper witness testimony (and the Prophets and apostolic warnings).

You have simply failed to answer to a basic method given in scripture to test ALL those who come in his name!

Failed.

...." what books of the bible ..

What atoms of air do you breath by discounting all the rest of air around you type argument...

You failed.

I believe and have faith that the whole Bible is Scripture, the inspired Word of God.

Again, What books of the Bible do you consider to be Scripture and the inspired Word of God?

Stranger
 
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bbyrd009

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I believe and have faith that the whole Bible is Scripture, the inspired Word of God.

Again, What books of the Bible do you consider to be Scripture and the inspired Word of God?

Stranger
So you can arbitrate the choice, Stranger? Or I mean what would be the point? Don't you ignore the Scriptures that don't suit you too? Are you sure? What will you say when I bring some Word that you cannot hear? What then?
 

Danube

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I believe and have faith that the whole Bible is Scripture, the inspired Word of God.
I called you out as a liar because you already denied from the outset, that you do not recognise Jesus as a teacher.
Jesus taught that you MUST HAVE the witness testimony of two or more people to have a case. Anything else is FALSE WITNESS testimony and breaks the commandment.
Jesus is the Teacher, not you.

You can have the last word.
 
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Episkopos

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This seems to be the one area that I cannot seem to reconcile with people I meet in Christian circles either at Church or lately online. Salvation by grace is a bit alien to me when it is explained in the context of my own conscientious reminders of Jesus' words that I read and pray to in the NT. Not willing to become a Paul basher for bashing sake I obviously continue to be wary of Paul. One Church I visited in the past just preached Corinthians with a sprinkle of Jesus and it made me think.
Does Jesus have more authority in his father's kingdom, than Paul? Of course he does, but without being sucked into the grace vs works debate ....the differences between Jesus and Paul are for me personally, growing exponentially since I came to Jesus for help, guidance and to know his teaching. What are peoples thoughts on what seem like (using a child like comprehension) glaringly obvious contradictions between the two on the subject of Law (Torah observance)?

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus sets out his fold for whoever wants to see or reach the kingdom, so why do so many people rely on Paul who preached grace!??
Also there are an increasingly growing number of websites that are staunchly against Paul but also give very compelling arguements and list all the contradictions which when seen together makes it virtually impossible to defend Paul. I consider myself a quick learner but even I am at a loss here.

The problem lies in our modern understanding of grace. Grace is the power from God to fulfill the law of God. To further confuse matters Paul is not being specific when he says "the law" on which law he is referring to. So there is a lot to confuse us. The works of the law include religious observances circumcision and sabbath keeping which the flesh can take up to justify itself. The law of God is to love as Jesus loved.

You can quickly tell who understands grace by how much love they exhibit. Grace allows us to enter into the 4th dimension which is love, joy and peace in the holy Spirit. YES, the kingdom of God.
 

Stranger

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I called you out as a liar because you already denied from the outset, that you do not recognise Jesus as a teacher.
Jesus taught that you MUST HAVE the witness testimony of two or more people to have a case. Anything else is FALSE WITNESS testimony and breaks the commandment.
Jesus is the Teacher, not you.

You can have the last word.

I recognize Jesus Christ as the Lord and Saviour.

Really? Did Jesus teach that? Where? Is that Scripture and inspired by God?

What books of the Bible do you consider Scripture and the inspired Word of God? If it is not the inspired Word of God, it carries no authority.

Anything else is false witness.

Stranger
 

Ac28

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Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ, on the Damascus Road. Then, he was trained by Jesus Christ through the many special revelations only he received directly from Christ, during and after Acts. Every Word Paul wrote or uttered was God-breathed, inspired, directly from Jesus Christ. Paul is the ONLY Apostle available TO us Gentiles. Without Paul, you have nothing.

I've watched the guy in the video in #389 before. I even argued with him before in his heretical comments. His ignorance knows no limits. There is ZERO TRUTH in this guy. He is the King of the Heretics and the Prince of the Blasphemers. He threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Where you DON'T find anything TO or ABOUT anyone living today is in the Gospels. Christ's earthly ministry was ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel - Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:5, Romans 15:8, John 1:31. The few Gentiles are incidentals.

Things directly involving you or me or anyone else living today, are found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles.
 
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Danube

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Why would you need Paul if you already have Jesus?
 

mjrhealth

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Why would you need Paul if you already have Jesus?
No one says you need Paul, that is not the discussion here, what is in contention is the fact that the Gospel He preached is salvation by faith through grace, and that is the part that you seem to deny. It isnt Pauls gospel it is Christs, and as He says

Luk_10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

one cannot claim to be saved yet deny the very gospel that saved them...

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

and suffer He did, an example for us. He was the first sent to teh gentiles, us.
 

Danube

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Yes, I see what your saying only you first need to convieniently deny that Jesus did not ask the apostles to preach unto the gentiles. Which then makes Paul's validity hang purely on his Damascus momment which itself is lacking the witness testimony Jesus gives his believers to apply to people who say (but fail to prove) they have been instructed by Jesus.

So again once you have Jesus, why would you need Paul to learn what Jesus taught??

Paul spent alot of time writing to convince people that Jesus changed his mind or could of just allowed people to read the gospels without the running commentary or intermediary?
 
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mjrhealth

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Yes, I see what your saying only you first need to convieniently deny that Jesus did not ask the apostles to preach unto the gentiles. Which then makes Paul's validity hang purely on his Damascus momment which itself is lacking the witness testimony Jesus gives his believers to apply to people who say (but fail to prove) they have been instructed by Jesus.

So again once you have Jesus, why would you need Paul to learn what Jesus taught??

Paul spent alot of time writing to convince people that Jesus changed his mind or could of just allowed people to read the gospels without the running commentary or intermediary?
Paul never said any such thing, but what you fail to realise is
1. God will use who,m He will use and could give a stuff wheter you like them or not.
2. If you reject those that Christ sent than you reject Him because Paul was sent in His name, you deny Paul you deny Christ, for you are telling Jesus, that He has no idea what He is doing.
3. Seems Luke wrote Acts, so if you are calling Paul a liar you are also calling Him a liar, as He wrote and recorded Pauls story and accepted Him as one of them, as did all the disciples, so are they all lying as well...

such a sad state of affairs
 
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Stranger

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Yes, I see what your saying only you first need to convieniently deny that Jesus did not ask the apostles to preach unto the gentiles. Which then makes Paul's validity hang purely on his Damascus momment which itself is lacking the witness testimony Jesus gives his believers to apply to people who say (but fail to prove) they have been instructed by Jesus.

So again once you have Jesus, why would you need Paul to learn what Jesus taught??

Paul spent alot of time writing to convince people that Jesus changed his mind or could of just allowed people to read the gospels without the running commentary or intermediary?

(Matt. 28:19) "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

I guess the book of (Matthew) is not inspired and Scripture either...is it?

Paul's validity is based on the authority he had from Jesus Christ. Peter is clear that Paul's writings are the Word of God. (2 Peter 3:15-16) I guess that is another book that is not Scripture, or books as Peter wrote two.

Paul was necessary because further revelation was necessary concerning the Church. Much of what Christ preached was to Israel and their place in the Kingdom. Further revelation is not a change of mind. It is revelation concerning something new, the Church.

So, what writings in the Bible do you consider inspired by God and Scripture?

Stranger
 
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Danube

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(Matt. 28:19) "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

I guess the book of (Matthew) is not inspired and Scripture either...is it?

Paul's validity is based on the authority he had from Jesus Christ. Peter is clear that Paul's writings are the Word of God. (2 Peter 3:15-16) I guess that is another book that is not Scripture, or books as Peter wrote two.

Paul was necessary because further revelation was necessary concerning the Church. Much of what Christ preached was to Israel and their place in the Kingdom. Further revelation is not a change of mind. It is revelation concerning something new, the Church.

So, what writings in the Bible do you consider inspired by God and Scripture?

Stranger

So basically you interpret Matthew to mean "everyone" (all nations)
Or how did Paul turn a Goat into a Sheep?
Are "all nations" the lost sheep?
Or ..are the lost sheep to be found in "all nations" (ie scattered amongst...)?

Also Paul never met Jesus.
Only Paul "says" he met Jesus, not the other way around.
I see no validity of Pauls credentials coming from Jesus, none whatsoever.
 
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Stranger

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So basically you interpret Matthew to mean "everyone" (all nations)
?

It says 'all nations'. Those are Gentile nations. So, is the book of (Matthew) inspired by God? Is the writings of Peter? Just what writings in the Bible do you consider as inspired by God and Scripture? Scared to answer aren't you?

Stranger
 

Danube

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I've watched the guy in the video in #389 before. I even argued with him before in his heretical comments. His ignorance knows no limits. There is ZERO TRUTH in this guy. He is the King of the Heretics and the Prince of the Blasphemers. He threw out the baby with the bathwater.
Ok so you dislike the individual.
Yet you haven't once stated why or given any detail. Typical Paulanist adhominem attack.
Can you explain where he is incorrect on a single point I could refference or give some examples please.
 

Danube

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It says 'all nations'. Those are Gentile nations. So, is the book of (Matthew) inspired by God? Is the writings of Peter? Just what writings in the Bible do you consider as inspired by God and Scripture? Scared to answer aren't you?

Stranger

None of what your quoting is really making any sense. I have to assume then until you correct me otherwise ...
So basically what your saying is Jesus will come back for the lost Sheep of ISRAEL and Paul must bring the lost Goats from the gentiles CHURCHES aka "all nations"?

When will Jesus be coming back for the lost Goats of the gentiles?

Is this mission reserved for Paul who is the "Jesus" for the lost Goats from the gentiles CHURCH?
 
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Stranger

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None of what your quoting is really making any sense. I have to assume then until you correct me otherwise ...
So basically what your saying is Jesus will come back for the lost Sheep of ISRAEL and Paul must bring the lost Goats from the gentiles CHURCHES aka "all nations"?

When will Jesus be coming back for the lost Goats of the gentiles?

Is this mission reserved for Paul who is the "Jesus" for the lost Goats from the gentiles CHURCH?

I just did correct you. Jesus in the book of (Matthew) told his disciples to go to all nations and preach. And you said He didn't. Which shows you don't know what you are talking about...again.

So, again, what books of the Bible do you consider inspired and Scripture? Why do you wear the Christian label? Why are you posting in a 'Christians only' area?

Let me lift that rock a little higher.

Stranger
 
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