Why isn't the shroud of turin in the bible

Marymog said:

You make (quote) some very good points.

Thomas, one of the Apostles, did not believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. It was the MIRACLE of Jesus being alive after being crucified that made Thomas believe. Once again, it took a MIRACLE for him to believe....not that he just started believing because he saw Jesus. So John 20:29 re-affirms what I have said.

Basically it comes down to this: If He hadn't performed the miracles then no one would have believed Him. Without those miracles, and the continuation of miracles to this day, YOU wouldn't have even believed what was written in Scripture because they never would have believed Him. Our entire belief on Him being the Son of God rest on the TESTIMONY of the miracles. Scripture makes it clear: No miracles, no belief.

Mary

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amadeus said:

But that at best is just at the start up. Did anyone ever start with God without a miracle perceived by the physical senses? In any case, once we have started our walk we cannot always be dependent on miracles perceivable by the five physical senses in order to grow. The growth I believe comes through the increase of our faith:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17
And without faith where are we?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

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Marymog said:

Hi Amadeus,

I generally agree with you. We do believe by faith. How did we obtain that "faith" that Jesus was the Son of God?

Short answer: The testimony put forth in Scripture about what the Apostles saw that made them believe. The Apostles needed signs to help them believe and the first of his signs (in Cana of Galilee) revealed his glory and his disciples believed in him (John 2:11).

Paul even acknowledged that what Christ has accomplished through him to win the obedience from the Gentiles was by the power of signs and wonders (Romans 15:18).

I think the words of Jesus in John 10:37-38 summarizes it all: If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

So @Andrew Kind @Nancy @Acolyte @ByGrace @Willie T you can rest assured that there is nothing wrong with looking for an answer from men, like what the writers of Scripture have given us and possibly even the men who studied The Shroud. There is nothing wrong with picking up a book on miracles and using all those miracles attested to by men (and women) throughout the last 2,000 years to affirm your faith. The people who walked and talked with Christ needed miracles to believe so there is nothing wrong with us needing them also. The Shroud of Turin may just be one of those things that you need to help re-affirm your faith in Him.

Mary

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Nancy said:

Ah yes, but then "blessed is he who believes without seeing..."
I read many books, I have my fave authors and I will tell you that as much as I have learned from them, there is always something I might NOT agree on with them...nor do I always agree biblically with my own Pastor! I am most definitely Sola Scriptura but, that does not mean we cannot learn from one another and...NOT just the scholars.
Be Blessed!

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Marymog said:

Thank you.....You make some very good points.

Without the miracles would you have faith Jesus was who he said he was?

If so, on what basis?

Mary

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amadeus said:

I was a follower of God and Jesus as a young Catholic believer before I knew anything else. My first recalled experience with God was at the age of 6 years [ 1949] when I was baptized in water at the Old Catholic Mission Church in San Juan Bautista, CA. God was there with me and I knew it. From that point in time I never completely left God... although I admit trying more than once.

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Marymog said:

Thank you.

You became "a follower of God and Jesus" because your parents raised you that way. That means you didn't really choose, they chose for you.

God was there with you at your baptism. Now, as an adult, you obviously still believe God is with you. Why do you continue to follow Jesus? What evidence did he provide to compel you to follow and BELIEVE in him?

Without the miracles He performed, would you still follow him?

Mary

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Marymog said:

Thank you Nancy.

Without the miracles He performed would you have faith Jesus was who he said he was?

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amadeus said:

You ask some deep questions. I may know the answers but expressing them in words is quite another thing. I follow Jesus for the same reason that Peter chose to follow him as expressed in John 6:68. There is no place really to go. There is no one else to follow. Everything else and every other place is, or leads to, death. Jesus is Life. As to the evidence, my whole life as a man of flesh is a long string of testimonies from that baptism in 1949 until now. With those testimonies are many miracles, some of them that any man, even an unbeliever, viewing them honestly, would consider remarkable.

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Good answer John! If you remember, I too come from a Catholic background. Italian/Irish Lol. First Communion, Confirmation, Religious Instruction every Tuesday after school...St. Joseph tables galore, lol...and food??!!!??? Oh yes...yum. I never learned much except for Jesus died for our sins. Back then I did not understand a thing said in Mass and there was no real teaching. My mom and dad decided to attend a Lutheran Church when I was around 13 or 14. I was shocked when I went for the 1st time as I thought every church was like the CC. I did eventually leave this Luthern Church and started to attend an Assemblies of God Church for about 4 years. Moved from that area and started with another and am with them today, love, love, love it there and, always think about their messages...of which I mostly agree ♥

amadeus said:

You ask some deep questions. I may know the answers but expressing them in words is quite another thing. I follow Jesus for the same reason that Peter chose to follow him as expressed in John 6:68. There is no place really to go. There is no one else to follow. Everything else and every other place is, or leads to, death. Jesus is Life. As to the evidence, my whole life as a man of flesh is a long string of testimonies from that baptism in 1949 until now. With those testimonies are many miracles, some of them that any man, even an unbeliever, viewing them honestly, would consider remarkable.

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Nancy said:

Well, since I was not there to see His miracles, and I DO have faith in what is written that He did but, it was much more than His miracles that brought me to faith in Him. The Bible alone witnesses Jesus is Lord many times so, my own life is a huge indicator of my faith/belief. And, then there is the historical aspect of the Word too. JMPO

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Marymog said:

Thank you. Wouldn't it be great to have a time machine and go back to that time? That would be amazing...

I believe you are saying that since you were not there you have faith that what was written is true. That the men who wrote those words did not lie. I think that is a fair statement.

If we remove all the miracles that Jesus performed do you think that those men would have written all those letters (the Bible) about their experience with Jesus?

Would you believe Jesus was the Son of God without those miracles?

What is the "historical aspect of the Word"? I don't understand that statement....

Mary

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He had me at the resurrection, lol.

"What is the "historical aspect of the Word"? I don't understand that statement...."
Apologetics, mostly. Like Jesus life death and mostly, His resurrection.

Marymog said:

Thank you.

You referenced In John 6:68 to make your point. How about we put it in a little bit more context? John 6:69 says "We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." How did they come to believe this Amadeus? Just because he said he was the Holy One of God? Or did he do something (like miracles) to prove it to them?

Why do you believe Jesus is life? If we take away His miracles wouldn't he be like Buddha?

Jesus performed many signs in the presence of his disciples and they are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. (John 20:30)

His greatest miracle, raising from the dead, validated His words and secured their belief in him. This miracle was so great that Peter would no longer deny him; even though he did just several days before His crucifixion.

Is it fair to say that if the miracle of the Resurrection did not occur and Jesus didn't perform all of the miracles he would have just been a madman by saying He was the Son of God?

Mary

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Nancy said:

"Wouldn't it be great to have a time machine and go back to that time? "
I would be thrilled just to visit the Holy Land, lol.

"If we remove all the miracles that Jesus performed do you think that those men would have written all those letters (the Bible) about their experience with Jesus?"
Well, I think of what a coward Peter was before Jesus died, and then see his behavior/demeanor change into a strong, courageous man of the Gospel after Jesus rises and sends His Spirit to them. Also, Paul didn't, as far as I know, "witness" Jesus miracles yet he believed. Yes, he had the Damascus Rd. thing but...did not actually see Him do miracles. After all of that, I suppose I would have to say, I don't know if they would have written anything.

"Would you believe Jesus .was the Son of God without those miracles?"
He had me at the resurrection, lol.

"What is the "historical aspect of the Word"? I don't understand that statement...."
Apologetics, mostly. Like Jesus life death and mostly, His resurrection.

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Nancy said:

"Why do you believe Jesus is life? If we take away His miracles wouldn't he be like Buddha? "
Not even close. First off, I bet Buddha is still in his resting place on this earth, and Buddha does not fill a single biblical prophecy concerning Jesus future coming.

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Marymog said:

Peter's behavior/demeanor changed AFTER the resurrection because he witnessed the miracle of Jesus risen body. If Jesus hadn't risen and appeared to them he would have still been a coward.

Paul experienced the MIRACLE of going blind and seeing/speaking to Jesus. He also witnessed the miracles that the Apostles performed in the name of Jesus. If that/those hadn't happened he would have continued his rampage against Christians.
The resurrection.....A MIRACLE???

Thank you.

Mary

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Marymog said:

In general, Buddha (and others) said a lot of philosophical, inspiring words to live by just like Jesus did. It was His miracles that separated Him from the rest.

It was prophesized that Jesus would perform miracles. That was ONE of the ways we would know he is the Lord. If we take away his miracles he would not have fulfilled the prophecy. He would just be another wise man.

Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing. Isaiah 35:5-6

Mary

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You seem to think I am like, downplaying Jesus miracles? And, that is also a part of fulfilled prophecy among many other Messianic prophecies
and it's how I know that Buddha and others like him are false Gods. I am still unsure where you are going with this but, please do not put words in my mouth...NOWHERE did I mention that miracles should be taken away, or are not important! (If we take away his miracles...) Many saw His miracles and still did not believe, many were illiterate yet, they believed because of His miracles and resurrection
Anyway, what does any of this have to do with The Shroud of Turin??

Marymog said:

Thank you. That would be cool (un-ice the Ark). My family and I went to The Ark Encounter in Kentucky. Have you been?

Do you totally disregard the STURP conclusion or do you believe some parts of it? Have you found a study done by someone else that I am not aware of that is irrefutable in showing The Turin is NOT a burial clothe of a man?

Mary

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Nancy said:

"Peter's behavior/demeanor changed AFTER the resurrection because he witnessed the miracle of Jesus risen body. If Jesus hadn't risen and appeared to them he would have still been a coward."
I could be wrong here but, I do believe Peters change was due to the giving of the Holy Spirit...after Pentecost.

"If that/those hadn't happened he would have continued his rampage against Christians.
Yes, most likely but God made sure that it did happen and he no longer rampaged against Christians.

The resurrection.....A MIRACLE???" <---Um, yes, of course, the resurrection was a miracle, the biggest one!
I thought your original question was about the NT writers and if they would have "believed Jesus was the Son of God, and would they have written the NT without personally seeing Jesus miracles.

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Nancy said:

You seem to think I am like, downplaying Jesus miracles? And, that is also a part of fulfilled prophecy among many other Messianic prophecies
and it's how I know that Buddha and others like him are false Gods. I am still unsure where you are going with this but, please do not put words in my mouth...NOWHERE did I mention that miracles should be taken away, or are not important! (If we take away his miracles...) Many saw His miracles and still did not believe, many were illiterate yet, they believed because of His miracles and resurrection
Anyway, what does any of this have to do with The Shroud of Turin??

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