No support for water baptism in two places

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RichardBurger

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Two places in the Bible that I do not feel support baptismal regeneration (water baptism necessary for salvation) are as follows.1 Pet 3:18-2218 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,21 and this water """symbolizes""" baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand-- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.(NIV)Verse 21 in the NKJV reads:21 There is also an “””antitype””” which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,(NKJ)At the end of verse 20, we read that, eight souls, were saved ""through" water. It is not that they were saved "by" water; they were saved "through" the water. Water was not the savior, but the judgment through which God brought them. If the people in the Ark, left the Ark, they would have drowned in the water. Therefore it is obvious that the water was not salvation.To properly understand this statement in verse 20 and the verse that follows, we must see the typical meaning of the Ark and the flood. The Ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The Ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are "in Christ" (Romans 8:1-2, 2 Cor. 1:21-22, 2 Cor. 5:17) are as saved as God Himself can make them. Those on the outside could not be more lost.The water was not the means of salvation, for all who were in the water drowned. The Ark was the place of refuge and the only means of salvation. The Ark went ""through"" the water of judgment; it took the full brunt of the storm. Not a drop of water reached those inside the Ark. So Christ bore the fury of God's judgment against our sins. For those who are "in Him" there is no judgment (John 5:24).Actually, there is a baptism which saves us --- not our baptism in water, but a baptism which took place at Calvary almost 2000 years ago; Christ's death was a baptism (see Mark 10:38). He was baptized in the waters of judgment. This is what He meant when He said, "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished" (Luke 12:50). The psalmist described this baptism in the words, "Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls; all Your waves and billows have gone over me" (Psalms 42:7). In His death, Christ was baptized in the waves and billows of God's wrath, and it is this baptism that is the basis for our salvation; Christ's baptism unto death on the cross. Today the Holy Spirit baptizes us into His baptism on the cross. That is what it means to be buried with Him. Our water baptism "represents" our identification with Him in only. It does not save us.Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?**** ScriptureJohn 3:1-6 .. (NIV)1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.**** end scripture It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God.It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.Context is everything. Nowhere in the conversation has water baptism been mentioned. In John 3, verse 6 we see the words "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. " There is absolutely no mention of water baptism. Only two things are under discussion, being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit.Richard
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SealedEternal

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The word "baptism" (Greek baptizo) simply mans for something to be immersed into something else. Water baptism was done by John to symbolize the immersion to come which is with God's Spirit. It is God's Spirit who washes and regenerates our wicked hearts and sanctifies us to God, and it is this immersion that saves us. Many confuse the symbol for what it is symbolizing, but in doing so miss the whole point.1Peter 3:21-22 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--NOT THE REMOVAL OF DIRT FROM THE FLESH, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. SealedEternal
 

Learning

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So the modern church has taken the water baptism from John when he did it and has ignored all the scriptures about christians being immersed in Jesus Christ.
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RichardBurger

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So the modern church has taken the water baptism from John when he did it and has ignored all the scriptures about christians being immersed in Jesus Christ.
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Yes. Read my article on Peter's sermon.Richard
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FoC

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Water Baptism...just do itBy Wm TiptonInstead of discussing whether water baptism 'saves' a person...an issue we personally believe is conditional seeing that some folks repent of their sins yet are unable for whatever reason to be baptised...Id like to discuss whether water baptism was practiced AFTER Jesus had ascended and after Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit.Some seem to think that after a time that water baptism was removed from our faith or something, but I personally do not believe that is the case.The day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit is recorded in Acts 2, as we well know, so do we see any water baptisms going on after this baptism of 'fire' spoken of in Gods word?6 entire chapters later we have a very clear baptism in water being practiced still. If Spirit baptism is all that is *required* or expected at this point, then why is this even occurring? (of course we expect some to come up with illogical reasoning's and excuses, but read it for yourself and take no ones word for anything. Does it make sense to YOU that this water baptism is taking place *IF* it is no longer of any issue? )Quote:
Act 8:36-39And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized himAnd when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
.This next passage is quite clear. These HAD already recieved the Holy Spirit and yet WERE going to be baptized in WATER as well.
Act 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46)For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Now, dear reader, is there any doubt in your mind about what is clearly shown there?These who HAD already received the Holy Spirit were commanded to be baptized in water. we know its water since they had ALREADY received the Holy Spirit and the greek rendered as water there typically means 'water'.
 

FoC

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So the modern church has taken the water baptism from John when he did it and has ignored all the scriptures about christians being immersed in Jesus Christ.
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Absolutely.Water baptism is absolutely practiced by believers in the NT and we should follow that example instead of finding reasons to get out of it.
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treeoflife

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Yes--the water birth (born of water and of spirit) referred to is simply our physical birth when we are born into the world.It has nothing to do with baptising with water as is practiced. That isn't to say that it isn't a good practice... just that Jesus never taught that it was in *any way* necessary for salation. Jesus doesn't talk about being baptised with water here, He talks about being born of water. He is simply teaching the following... in order to be enter heaven you must meet the following criteria.1. You must be born (born of water). You must have physical life in you.2. You must be born again (born of spirit). You must be spiritually renewed.
 

RichardBurger

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Water Baptism...just do itBy Wm TiptonInstead of discussing whether water baptism 'saves' a person...an issue we personally believe is conditional seeing that some folks repent of their sins yet are unable for whatever reason to be baptised...Id like to discuss whether water baptism was practiced AFTER Jesus had ascended and after Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit.Some seem to think that after a time that water baptism was removed from our faith or something, but I personally do not believe that is the case.The day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit is recorded in Acts 2, as we well know, so do we see any water baptisms going on after this baptism of 'fire' spoken of in Gods word?6 entire chapters later we have a very clear baptism in water being practiced still. If Spirit baptism is all that is *required* or expected at this point, then why is this even occurring? (of course we expect some to come up with illogical reasoning's and excuses, but read it for yourself and take no ones word for anything. Does it make sense to YOU that this water baptism is taking place *IF* it is no longer of any issue? )Quote:.This next passage is quite clear. These HAD already recieved the Holy Spirit and yet WERE going to be baptized in WATER as well.Now, dear reader, is there any doubt in your mind about what is clearly shown there?These who HAD already received the Holy Spirit were commanded to be baptized in water. we know its water since they had ALREADY received the Holy Spirit and the greek rendered as water there typically means 'water'.
I know you are convinced that you are right. That is your right to believe as you think it right.But there are others that don't think you are right. What do you want them to do, deny what they believe and go with what you believe???As I see it, the book of Act is a transtional book from the gospel of the kingdom (which included the Law of Moses and all the rituals [which included water washing]) to the gospel of grace as preached by Paul.Under grace, a man's works are not required for a person to be washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is based on the work of God on the cross. All those that place their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in that work are saved under God's grace.Water washing was a ritual under the Law of Moses and we are no longer under that Law. Were the Jews under the Law of Moses?Well, according to Jesus, yes they were.Matt 23:1-41 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. NKJVRichard
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FoC

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I know you are convinced that you are right. That is your right to believe as you think it right.
Hi
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I dont 'think' I am right...I can see for myself, as can anyone who reads those passages, especially the latter one, that WATER baptism WAS practiced after receiving the Holy Spirit.There really isnt any way around that fact.Now, if you are talking about water baptism being required for salvation, I have no personal view about that particular point...nor do I care to debate it.Water baptism was practiced in the church and so we should do likewise.Will a man go to hell who has repented and placed his faith in Jesus Christ if he cannot be baptized ? I seriously doubt that he is in any jeopardy in the matter, but *IF* he can be water baptized he should be.
But there are others that don't think you are right. What do you want them to do, deny what they believe and go with what you believe???
I'd tell them to READ the scriptures.
As I see it, the book of Act is a transtional book from the gospel of the kingdom (which included the Law of Moses and all the rituals [which included water washing]) to the gospel of grace as preached by Paul.
As YOU see it...and turning your guns on you..."But there are others that don't think you are right. What do you want them to do, deny what they believe and go with what you believe???I am not a dispensationalist, nor will I ever be.While Good news was being spread there was some transition from what was to what came into being, but that does not in any way mean that there were 10 sets of rules for everyone.
Under grace, a man's works are not required for a person to be washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is based on the work of God on the cross. All those that place their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in that work are saved under God's grace.
And where in my post did I say that water baptism was necessary for sanctification ?Im sorry, but AFTER receiving the SPIRIT men were STILL being baptized in water.The only reason you can remove that is by playing this dispensationism card that Ive seen used to even entirely remove the book of Hebrews as instruction to keep from accepting its teachings for the church.Im sorry, but I dont believe that nonsense.
Water washing was a ritual under the Law of Moses and we are no longer under that Law. Were the Jews under the Law of Moses?Well, according to Jesus, yes they were.Matt 23:1-41 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. NKJVRichard
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And again in Acts AFTER Pentecost and AFTER Jesus' ascension we have GENTILES who have received the Spirit and spoken in tongues being baptized in water.
Act 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46)For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.​
These were GENTILES, not just JEWS who were receiving the Spirit, speaking in tongues and then being baptized in WATER.Sorry, but your arguing about Jews this and Jews that doesnt change THAT point.
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FoC

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Yet another passage that shows us that water baptism was still practiced.
Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ should be deprived of its power. (1Co 1:12-17 EMTV)​
Now WHAT baptism is it that this is talking about?Are we to believe that Jesus DIDNT send Paul to have men 'baptized' into Christs Spirit ?Paul very clearly says that Christ did not send him to baptize, even tho he DID apparently baptize some.Someone who rejects that this is water baptism being spoken of please explain this passage in a way that is LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with the details (ie, please dont just post some silly whimsical response and expect me to buy it
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)This passage pretty much HAS to be talking about water baptism in order to even remotely make any sense.