Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say.

justbyfaith said:

@CoreIssue,

What is your take on

Jhn 15:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

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I am a Christian.

Man has a sinful nature that is enemy against God.

"For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of the their sinful nature can never please God." Romans 8:7,8.

The mind of the flesh is hostile towards God yet you came to Christ all on your own power - amazing.

LC627 said:

Before coming to Christ we were slaves to sin. Sin was our master and we were in spiritual bondage. No child of the devil naturally on their own will submit to Jesus. God is the One Who opens our heart.

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Ephesians 2 says as much, indeed.

LC627 said:

It's not Calvinism, it's Biblical. You only choose God because He first convicted you. You didn't create the conviction in your own heart or raise yourself from the dead.

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That is Calvinism not the Bible.

"If all men have "free will" and yet without exception are under God's wrath, then it follows that "free will" leads them in only one direction - "ungodliness and unrighteousness" So where is the power of free will helping them to do good? If free will exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God." - Luther "The Bondage of the Will"

LC627 said:

"If all men have "free will" and yet without exception are under God's wrath, then it follows that "free will" leads them in only one direction - "ungodliness and unrighteousness" So where is the power of free will helping them to do good? If free will exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God." - Luther "The Bondage of the Will"

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Therefore...we need the grace of God in the Gospel, right?

farouk said:

Ephesians 2 says as much, indeed.

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It says we are saved by faith which is by the grace of God.

Grace is a gift, not a reprogramming. Faith is us trusting him.

Trust is not programming, which cannot be deviated from. It is a choice we make of free will.

CoreIssue said:

It says we are saved by faith which is by the grace of God.

Grace is a gift, not a reprogramming. Faith is us trusting him.

Trust is not programming, which cannot be deviated from. It is a choice we make of free will.

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We are made willing. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110.3); our will, as worked upon by grace, is not meritorious.

LC627 said:

"If all men have "free will" and yet without exception are under God's wrath, then it follows that "free will" leads them in only one direction - "ungodliness and unrighteousness" So where is the power of free will helping them to do good? If free will exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God." - Luther "The Bondage of the Will"

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Where does the Bible say every individual is under God's wrath? Where does it say free will is a one-way trip? Where doe the Bible say God predestined anyone to hell?

farouk said:

We are made willing. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110.3); our will, as worked upon by grace, is not meritorious.

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Made willing is reprogramming.

CoreIssue said:

Made willing is reprogramming.

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Are you contradicting Psalm 110.3, Sir? surely not?

farouk said:

Are you contradicting Psalm 110.3, Sir? surely not?

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No.
Change by free will is not reprogramming.

Change by force is reprogramming.

CoreIssue said:

No.
Change by free will is not reprogramming.

Change by force is reprogramming.

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I was made willing by God's grace.

Otherwise I would not have come in faith to Christ. Ever.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6.44)

farouk said:

I was made willing by God's grace.

Otherwise I would not have come in faith to Christ. Ever.

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How do you know that?

CoreIssue said:

How do you know that?

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"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6.44)

farouk said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6.44)

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God draws everyone once known to be lost. Remember that verse also?

Those he knows will love him he draws to him and ordains him to be conformed to Christ.

Wants all to be saved rejects Calvinism.

LC627 said:

I am a Christian.

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I don't doubt that at all, even while passionately disagreeing with Calvinism.

LC627 said:

Man has a sinful nature that is enemy against God.

"For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of the their sinful nature can never please God." Romans 8:7,8.

The mind of the flesh is hostile towards God yet you came to Christ all on your own power - amazing.

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LC627, who do you believe is responsible if a person goes to Heaven?
Now, who do you believe is responsible if a person goes to Hell?

CoreIssue said:

God draws everyone once known to be lost. Remember that verse also?

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Do tell me, please, Sir.

Calvinists, dominionist and similar all see themselves as chosen Elite.

farouk said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6.44)

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This verse simply means that no one can be saved without a supernatural drawing to Christ through the Gospel. It does not mean that God excludes anyone from being saved. What it does mean is that (a) there is supernatural power in the true Gospel -- when presented through and with the Word of God -- to bring men salvation and (b) there is a supernatural drawing to Christ by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when the Gospel is preached or read.

This verse has been misapplied by Calvinists to teach that God draws some to Christ while He ignores others. That is simply untrue and unbiblical.

farouk said:

I was made willing by God's grace.

Otherwise I would not have come in faith to Christ. Ever.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6.44)

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No one is arguing with John 6:44.

The fundamental difference between Calvinist and other view points is the underlined part here:
Non-Calvinist: all men whom come to Christ is because God drew them into there. Those that don't come to the Father are because they choose to reject God's message.
Calvinist: all men whom come to Christ is because God drew them into there. Those that don't come to the Father are because God didn't bother to testify to them.