Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say.

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justbyfaith

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Those who exercised faith in the Lord at the time of the first Passover had to take steps of action or obedience in order for the destroying angel to pass over them.

They had to kill the paschal lamb and smear its blood on the lintels and on the doorposts.

Is not baptism the New Testament action that we take, similar to that Old Testament action?

We appropriate the blood of Christ through baptism.

1Pe 3:20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Rom 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Act 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
 

Phoneman777

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This is salvation by works. And hypocrisy because you think people must act like Christians to become one. If you must "choose to believe" it is only because you don't believe.
"Choice" is not works - it's thought. Faith, belief, surrender, reasoning together with God, etc. are all accomplished through the process of thought.

It is totally illegitimate to characterize man's responsibility to cognitively choose "not my will, but Thy will" as "salvation by works", for to do so is to accuse the same of JESUS.
 

Taken

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Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say. He must start by choosing to believe!
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13

God says==That """if""" thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,

and ""shalt believe"" in your heart that God hath raised him

from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man

believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth ""confession

is made unto Salvation"". For whosoever shall ""call ""upon the

name of the Lord "shall" be Saved..........

SPOT ON!!!

"IF" (mans act)..results in.."THEN" (Lords act)

Many are TEACHING...."IF"...accomplished...

"IS"....."NOT SUFFICIENT"!!! <--- ERROR!!!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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"Choice" is not works - it's thought. Faith, belief, surrender, reasoning together with God, etc. are all accomplished through the process of thought.

It is totally illegitimate to characterize man's responsibility to cognitively choose "not my will, but Thy will" as "salvation by works", for to do so is to accuse the same of JESUS.

Choice is an ELECTION exercising ones own Freewill.
Agree it is NOT Works.

A man exercises his own Freewill...
To believe, to choose, to surrender....

It is God ALONE, who gives a man FAITH...
A man CAN RECEIVE FAITH....but a man CANNOT establish FAITH.

FAITH is a gift from God, FOR the man exercising his own Freewill, to Hear, to Follow, to Believe, to Choose, to Continue, to Subimt, to Surrender.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Dave L

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"Choice" is not works - it's thought. Faith, belief, surrender, reasoning together with God, etc. are all accomplished through the process of thought.

It is totally illegitimate to characterize man's responsibility to cognitively choose "not my will, but Thy will" as "salvation by works", for to do so is to accuse the same of JESUS.
Do you choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is real? Christ is real to all who truly believe. Choosing to believe means you don't believe but must force yourself to believe.
 

Phoneman777

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Choice is an ELECTION exercising ones own Freewill.
Agree it is NOT Works.

A man exercises his own Freewill...
To believe, to choose, to surrender....

It is God ALONE, who gives a man FAITH...
A man CAN RECEIVE FAITH....but a man CANNOT establish FAITH.

FAITH is a gift from God, FOR the man exercising his own Freewill, to Hear, to Follow, to Believe, to Choose, to Continue, to Subimt, to Surrender.

Glory to God,
Taken
Agreed. Our job is to continually say to God, "not my will, but Thy will" and trust that His will be done in us. That's why the Bible says "he that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."

The reason why this is so hated by the church is that people don't want this kind of surrender...but why? Didn't Jesus surrender all of Him for us? Didn't Jesus withhold NOTHING of Himself in order to save us? How DARE we say to Him, "thus far and no further, Lord"? How dare we say, "I'll keep nine commandments, Lord, but I'm not keeping the Sabbath. Might lose my job, might lose my wife, might lose respect of others, Lord"?

When Paul said, "If I preach works, the OFFENCE of the Cross is ceased", this is what he was talking about. People who refuse total surrender are actually engaging "salvation by works" - salvation on their own terms constructed by their own hands while claiming the engineering blueprint is Biblical.
 

Phoneman777

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Do you choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is real? Christ is real to all who truly believe. Choosing to believe means you don't believe but must force yourself to believe.
I choose to trust the chair won't collapse beneath me and break my neck in a fall. Choosing to place my trust in Jesus is not an outward action, but an inward acceptance, an internalization of truth.
 
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Dave L

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I choose to trust the chair won't collapse beneath me and break my neck in a fall. Choosing to place my trust in Jesus is not an outward action, but an inward acceptance, an internalization of truth.
You already believe by grace or you wouldn't choose to believe.
 

Phoneman777

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You already believe by grace or you wouldn't choose to believe.
We cannot separate acceptance of truth from our response to the truth. We either believe what is true and choose to surrender our will to it, or not. In the case of salvation, I believe that what God says is true (through His having reasoned with me) and my response to that which He's convinced me as true is to choose to surrender myself to it and Him.

The reason why the "devils believe and tremble" is because they believe the truth, but through stubborn refusal to surrender to it when the opportunity was there, have placed themselves forever beyond all ability to do so.

We have no reason to doubt that about them, because the Bible says that is exactly what can happen to us.
 
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Dave L

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We cannot separate acceptance of truth from our response to the truth. We either believe what is true and choose to surrender our will to it, or not. In the case of salvation, I believe that what God says is true (through His having reasoned with me) and my response to that which He's convinced me as true is to choose to surrender myself to it and Him.

The reason why the "devils believe and tremble" is because they believe the truth, but through stubborn refusal to surrender to it when the opportunity was there, have placed themselves forever beyond all ability to do so.

We have no reason to doubt that about them, because the Bible says that is exactly what can happen to us.
It works like this. You must already believe (be saved according to Jesus) or you would not choose to believe (a form of repentance). But true repentance is in baptism and living a holy life. If you think "choosing to believe" saves you, your faith is in your faith and not in Christ. It is essentially salvation by works.
 
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Taken

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Agreed. Our job is to continually say to God, "not my will, but Thy will" and trust that His will be done in us.

Yes. The POINT of Prayer/Communication with the Lord, that He strengthen us IN HIM...IN HIS WORD...IN HIS POWER....

(Not being a begger of material things, Big Screen TV and such.)

That's why the Bible says "he that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."

Correct. The LYING is claiming to "KNOW" Him, which is a reflection of the mans spirit having been "QUICKENED"...
That without BEING made "restored (soul) and quickened (spirit)"....most factually, the TRUTH, (ie the Spirit of God), IS NOT IN THE MAN.

The reason why this is so hated by the church is that people don't want this kind of surrender...but why?

A fish has been a historical representation of a man WHO is following AFTER Gods WAY, AFTER Christs WAY....

What about the man who represents a Church and preaches....
Follow Christs WAY and ALSO "this" Church's WAY?

Gen 6:
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

John 14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way

MEN regularly PREACH, "their man-made Church "IS THE WAY"...(like a fish WITH TWO MOUTHS).

Didn't Jesus surrender all of Him for us?

No. Jesus OFFERED the body & life of that body (ie blood)... God prepared for when Jesus would come into this world.

"Sacrifice" of Gods Body, Gods Soul, Gods Spirit, was not Offered to men.

Heb 10:5.....prepared body
John 6:51....give His flesh
Heb 10:10....offering His body
Heb 10:5......sacrifice and offering NOT, other
...................than the prepared body.

Didn't Jesus withhold NOTHING of Himself in order to save us? How DARE we say to Him, "thus far and no further, Lord"? How dare we say, "I'll keep nine commandments, Lord, but I'm not keeping the Sabbath. Might lose my job, might lose my wife, might lose respect of others, Lord"?

Men without God, are not equipped to KEEP any Commandments of God.

Men WITH Christ, are KEPT IN Christ, BY the Indwelling Power of the Spirit of God.

Romans 14
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

When Paul said, "If I preach works, the OFFENCE of the Cross is ceased", this is what he was talking about. People who refuse total surrender are actually engaging "salvation by works" - salvation on their own terms constructed by their own hands while claiming the engineering blueprint is Biblical.

Works IMO are grossly misunderstood.

A man WITHOUT having received Salvation, is not equipped to DO WORKS that Glorify God.

Not ALL WORKS a "Saved" man DOES, Glorifies God.

A "Saved" man "WHOSE WORKS" DO Glorify God......AND THAT MAN IS "NOT" praised by other men......THAT MAN SHALL "RECEIVE" rewards of God, by God, WHICH such "rewards" are called "treasures" stored up IN Heaven.

^ THOSE are...based on teachings in Scripture, for a Saved man TO DO WELL TO OTHERS and FOR OTHERS, in secret, wihtout the trophies, pride, fanfair, headline, blah, blah, being the manner of praise of men; and but momentary, compared to the Rewards the Lord Himself has to recognize men WHO have Glorified God.

God Bless,
Taken
 

LC627

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It says we are saved by faith which is by the grace of God.

Grace is a gift, not a reprogramming. Faith is us trusting him.

Trust is not programming, which cannot be deviated from. It is a choice we make of free will.

Faith is a gift of God too.

Ligonier Ministries
 

LC627

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Where does the Bible say every individual is under God's wrath? Where does it say free will is a one-way trip? Where doe the Bible say God predestined anyone to hell?

Glad you asked.

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 9:22,23 - What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

Man has a will, a fallen, enslaved will that obeys sin and a mind that cannot submit to God. (Romans 8:7)
 
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LC627

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I don't doubt that at all, even while passionately disagreeing with Calvinism.

LC627, who do you believe is responsible if a person goes to Heaven?
Now, who do you believe is responsible if a person goes to Hell?

God shows mercy or justice. There is no injustice in that. Those who go to Heaven do not deserve Heaven, those who go to Hell deserve it. No one gets injustice. The lost don't care they're lost and the saved know they are wicked sinners who do not deserve Heaven.
 

LC627

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There is faith that we have for salvation; and then there is the gift of supernatural faith that can be given to us over and above that faith.

Dead men have no faith. To be dead is to be dead, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not have to quicken us
 

justbyfaith

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There is a middle ground wherein the Lord calls people into saving faith in Jesus; as the Spirit draws that person to Christ, they begin to have enough faith to be able to take a step of faith the whole way in to saving faith in Jesus Christ. As in the case of

Mar 9:22, And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23, Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things arepossible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24, And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
 
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Dave L

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There is a middle ground wherein the Lord calls people into saving faith in Jesus; as the Spirit draws that person to Christ, they begin to have enough faith to be able to take a step of faith the whole way in to saving faith in Jesus Christ. As in the case of

Mar 9:22, And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23, Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things arepossible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24, And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
This is salvation by self-righteousness.
 

justbyfaith

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This is salvation by self-righteousness.
No; for the work of faith being instilled in the heart is all of the Lord...

If we have no choice in the matter of whether we will place our faith in Jesus for salvation, then

God is purposefully withholding faith from certain people and then placing them in hell because they don't have it.

This is not a God of love.
 
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Dave L

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No; for the work of faith being instilled in the heart is all of the Lord...

If we have no choice in the matter of whether we will place our faith in Jesus for salvation, then

God is purposefully withholding faith from certain people and then placing them in hell because they don't have it.

This is not a God of love.
It still comes down to you and your self-righteousness being the savior in your thinking.