Man has a part in his salvation=things to do, believe and say.

Dave L said:

This is salvation by self-righteousness.

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Dave, it is perfectly clear to those who know their Bibles that you neither understand salvation nor the meaning of self-righteousness. So how does one go about correcting someone so deluded?

Dave L said:

It still comes down to you and your self-righteousness being the savior in your thinking.

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You are going to have to elaborate on this if you want me to believe you.

The same reason people come up with the rapture, is the same reason they make the false doctrine of "once saved always saved". They are scared, so they lie to themselves to prevent being scared.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Some will say that if you have "faith" in God that you are saved, and nothing can change that. It is obvious that they never listened to the Holy Spirit when reading the Bible, as this is said to be a lie every book and almost every chapter of every book in the Bible. As we hear from James, that "faith without works is dead". He even touches on the people that say "I have faith", well James' reply to them is that even satan and all the demons believe in God along with Jesus Christ. That they even tremble in fear before God, but they are not good and they will not go to Heaven just because they believe in Jesus and God.

Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Here in this chapter, Jesus tells us himself what is expected from Christians. Each of us are given a "talent", which is a spiritual gift (teaching, healing, helps, governing, etc), with those gifts from God we are suppose to "put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury". Being a Christian is not a free pass, "I believe, so now I can sit and sleep all day". The entire point of this life is for us to prove ourselves, God can judge us all on the day after creation knowing the future and what will happen, but he chose to create the flesh as a way to make us all witness for ourselves. No one will want to go to the lake of fire and they will all say "I am a good person God, save me", and his reply will be "lets see what you did in your life and let that judge if you are good or not". As Jesus says himself, the Christians that do not live by Jesus' teachings will be rejected by Jesus and send into "darkness".

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jesus even goes into detail about the judgment during the thousand years of his reign, based on the works of the chosen. When Jesus returns he will separate the "sheep" from the "goats": what will be the method of this separation? "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Jesus will divide the good from bad at his return based on one thing alone, works. Did Jesus say "the sheep will be those that believed in me!", no he did not at all, the words were never said by Jesus Christ. Believing in Jesus means nothing, even the demons believe, but they have no reward.

Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Mark 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

The day Jesus was arrested satan used Peter's love for Jesus to cause him to try and stop the plan of God by protecting Jesus, but if Jesus did not die on the cross for our sins none would be able to enter Heaven. This thread is the same, satan is using people's fear of going to Hell to get Christians to reject God's Word so they can feel better without worrying about messing up...ignorance is bliss. Jesus said we have to sacrifice the desires of this world and not be ashamed of him, bare our cross and follow Jesus. Following Jesus does not mean "believe", it means to be "Christ-like", trying to live as he did. Jesus had faith, but he also had works, and he also obeyed the law. Jesus told us how to get eternal life when asked in Matthew 19 "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Obey the law, and be Christ-like.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not....they were judged every man according to their works".

LC627 said:

God shows mercy or justice. There is no injustice in that. Those who go to Heaven do not deserve Heaven, those who go to Hell deserve it. No one gets injustice. The lost don't care they're lost and the saved know they are wicked sinners who do not deserve Heaven.

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That's not quite an answer to my question.

If the only way a person is saved is by God forcing them to have faith, then why are all not saved? Why did a loving God create fallen individuals (whom by God's design cannot ever have faith) just to doom them to Hell?

Jane_Doe22 said:

If the only way a person is saved is by God forcing them to have faith, then why are all not saved? Why did a loving God create fallen individuals (whom by God's design cannot ever have faith) just to doom them to Hell?

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Those are excellent questions and prove the falsity of Five Point Calvinism.

What the Calvinists conveniently forget is that God *chose* or *elected* Israel to be the nation on earth which would represent Him as a *kingdom of priests*. So according to Calvinism each and every Jew should have been saved through so-called *irresistible grace*. But when we read the Gospels and Acts, we see the exact opposite. A minority of Jews were saved and the majority was not.

Hi @Mal'ak;

I think you have hit on some good points.

I would point out, however, that works, without faith in what Christ has done for us on the Cross, will not save anyone.

1Co 15:1, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3, For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

If I give $5 to a poor person (or even $5,000,000), that is not going to effect the change in my heart that amounts to salvation from sin.

Of course, if I am saved from sin, that may result in me giving money to the poor; however, the act of giving to the poor (or any other work, for that matter) is not going to save me.

The only work that saves is what Jesus called the work of God in

Jhn 6:28, Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29, Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Passages also to be considered:

Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Very good, @Mal'ak...

The only point that I would make is that we are transformed within by our faith in Christ (and what He did for us on the Cross) and not by any good work that we might do...but we will do good works because of that inner transformation if it is genuinely wrought in our hearts.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Now Cain's offering was an offering of works...he offered up the fruit of the ground which he had toiled and laboured to produce...but Abel's offering was more in line with God's prescribed method of obtaining righteousness...through the sacrifice of a lamb (a lamb which, most likely, was his pet and dearly loved by him).

This points to what John the Baptist said in

Jhn 1:29, The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

It points again to a righteousness that is imputed apart from works:

Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

justbyfaith said:

Very good, @Mal'ak...

The only point that I would make is that we are transformed within by our faith in Christ (and what He did for us on the Cross) and not by any good work that we might do...but we will do good works because of that inner transformation if it is genuinely wrought in our hearts.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

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1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I see...so you are of the group that believes once you have faith, the Holy Spirit takes control of you so that he will "cause you to walk in my statutes". No free will, no choice, robots. Not sure what the point of the "tribulation" and "trials" of our faith through out the Bible is talking about, that is confusing. God is controlling us like robots, so he is testing himself to see if he will do evil? Oh, that is interesting. Salvation is "reserved in heaven for you.....that the trial of your faith...though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise...at the appearing of Jesus Christ". I heard "reserved", but reservations can be broken. I read about "trial of faith", which suggests proving something. I read "MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE"...we might...maybe...there is a chance, be seen worthy when Jesus returns.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

"IF we walk in the light....the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin....IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us". If you are taking the literal God causes us to follow his statues, how do we sin, as John says we are human and if we say we do not sin we are liars. We come at two different doctrines:

Doctrine A: Once we are given the gift of faith, there is no need for works, as faith is a work in it's self and God will cause you to walk in his statutes.

Doctrine B: Faith is a gift only given by God, filling us with the Holy Spirit so we may know and follow his law. Proving our righteousness with our works, but when we sin as humans Jesus is faithful to forgive us if we confess them.

The greatest gift of God is free will, the idea we become Christian robots is a mockery to God. Those that have studied the Bible know at satan's fall he became our accuser, telling God that he should not be damned because no one can walk God's path, this life is a rebuttal to satan's claim. But if God PICKS who has faith and then God CONTROLS us so we have to do good, it just proves satan is right and that the judgment of all is not righteous. If God is righteous and just, how can he make and enforce a test that no one can pass? How can he damn people to Hell when they had no chance to win unless he controlled them? If your teacher handed out a test at school and none of the answers were ever taught, and then some of the tests of his chosen students had the answers written already so they just had to sit there while everyone else tried to figure it out only to fail. Would you say that was a fair test? I get the idea, you are scared of going to Hell, you don't want to "judge your ways" as David said because you are terrified of what you will realize of yourself. So the best idea so you don't sniff a pound of cocaine is to deceive yourself, making up the idea that you don't want to do anything and you will go to Heaven. It is easy...it is comfortable...but "narrow is the road to Heaven, and wide is the highway to hell". Face your sins, repent, and walk with Christ. Better to face the truth now and fix it, then wait until Jesus comes and places you with the non-believers. Not judgment, just some advice in Love.

Mal'ak said:

and if we say we do not sin we are liars.

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That is not what 1 John 1:8 says or teaches...otherwise it is in contradiction to 1 John 3:5-9. 1 John 1:8 tells us that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18)...and what that means is that the element of sin dwells within me...however if it is crucified and made dead (cf. Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8), it has no power or authority over me to cause me to sin...I can in fact walk in freedom from sin (John 8:31-36)...for that I am not obligated to the flesh (Romans 8:12-13).

Mal'ak said:

The greatest gift of God is free will, the idea we become Christian robots is a mockery to God.

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It is not that we become robots, but that he transforms us in our very nature so that we are no longer swine or dogs (cf. 2 Peter 2:22) but sheep. Sheep do not have an affinity towards vomit or mud. When we truly receive Christ, we do not become slaves, but sons, of righteousness.

Mal'ak said:

But if God PICKS who has faith and then God CONTROLS us so we have to do good

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Jhn 15:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Mal'ak said:

Face your sins, repent, and walk with Christ.

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I have done so (the 1st two things) and will continue to do so (the latter thing).

Mal'ak said:

How can he damn people to Hell when they had no chance to win unless he controlled them?

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We are introduced to faith in Jesus Christ through the plea for us to surrender to His Lordship in our lives. He will not "control" us unless we give Him the permission to do so. In all reality it is not "control" but a transformation of our nature and character so that we become inclined towards doing what pleases Him in who we have become as new creatures in Christ.

Mal'ak said:

So the best idea so you don't sniff a pound of cocaine is to deceive yourself,

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Never really tried the stuff; but if I had, I know people who have been delivered from it not through hunkering down and trying harder (i.e. "white-knuckling" it) but because the Lord showed them favour and set them free by His divine grace in their lives.

justbyfaith said:

You are going to have to elaborate on this if you want me to believe you.

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If salvation depends on you, and you are the last link in the chain, you become the savior of yourself. = self-righteousness. In scripture people are born so sinful they hate God but love idols more to their liking bearing his name. So if any are saved, it is because God gives them a new heart through the new birth and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, already present in the believer, happens through repentance.

Enoch111 said:

Dave, it is perfectly clear to those who know their Bibles that you neither understand salvation nor the meaning of self-righteousness. So how does one go about correcting someone so deluded?

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How were you saved? If you think it was your choosing to believe, you must have already believed (already were saved according to Jesus) or you would not have chosen to believe.

Dave L said:

If salvation depends on you, and you are the last link in the chain, you become the savior of yourself. = self-righteousness. In scripture people are born so sinful they hate God but love idols more to their liking bearing his name. So if any are saved, it is because God gives them a new heart through the new birth and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, already present in the believer, happens through repentance.

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I agree! Unfortunately, not many understand the reason for the need for the "new birth" . Paul explains it plainly in Rom. 8:9.
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Every living human that is physically born into the world is void of the Spirit of God, and therefore is by default, "a child of the devil" . Hence- "Ye MUST BE born again".

Dave L said:

So if any are saved, it is because God gives them a new heart through the new birth and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

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Certainly not against their will!

For in salvation, a person becomes submitted/surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

It is not the God that I serve who would force a person to submit/surrender to His will for their lives unless they did this willingly. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom).

God does not force people into being slaves.

Those who serve Him as bondservants do so because we have fallen in love with His character and grace.

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

justbyfaith said:

Certainly not against their will!

For in salvation, a person becomes submitted/surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

It is not the God that I serve who would force a person to submit/surrender to His will for their lives unless they did this willingly. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom).

God does not force people into being slaves.

Those who serve Him as bondservants do so because we have fallen in love with His character and grace.

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

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This is salvation by self-righteousness. Scripture teaches we are dead in trespasses and sins. Paul says the natural man cannot discern the things of God. So we are helplessly lost. In this state the flesh is all we have to work with. And it can do nothing but sin. Unless God raises our spirit from the dead, we cannot believe in any true sense. The flesh only believes in a false Christ.

@Dave L,

Just think about what I said: for I feel that my argument is more compelling than yours.

Even a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins can be awakened to a point (through the Father drawing them) where they can make a decision either to receive or reject Christ as Lord and Saviour. Even the best of analogies have the tendency to break down at a certain point.

God will not make us a bondservant (doulos) against our will.

2Pet.3[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.