The Catholic Church became apostate over time and stopped believing people are as sinful as Augustine proved from scripture. Luther and Calvin tried to reform the church steering it back into Augustine's doctrine of sin. It was part of the ecumenical creeds that define Christendom.OK....so you are saying that since Calvin and Luther agree with Augustine then The Church is wrong?
I sincerely apologize if I am misunderstanding you.
Mary
The Five Points of Calvinism
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Marymog
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Thank you Dave. You are leaving me with more questions than answers. I don't see a clear answer to my original question: Are you are saying that since Calvin and Luther agree with Augustine then The Church is wrong?
New Questions: Since you know that the CC became apostate "over time", what was the 1st apostasy of The Church? Who decides what an apostasy is??
Curious Mary
Yes, The church affirmed Augustine was right at Ephesus in 431. But later sank into semi-pelagianism (free will). The Reformation was essentially an Augustinian revival.
CoreIssue
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Yes, Satan is a is a huge liar and humans are by nature vain and egotistical.
But that does not mean every human is devoid of a desire for God and to confess their sins and ask for salvation.
In your logic for God choosing some for salvation and the rest not has no basis in the Bible. Nowhere does it teach the concept that God destined some for salvation and some for damnation. Nowhere.
As for your special sauce the Bible addresses that pointedly. It says many will claim special sauce but he'll tell them you never had it.
Simple fact is if we went by your formula no one would ever be saved.
God wants all saved and everyone gets an invitation. Up to them to choose.
If they so choose then he cleans them up in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Anthony D'Arienzo
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I am trying hard to find the words to say here, to express my beliefs without horribly offending you (knowing that you are a Calvinist).
Suffice it to say, when I read scripture, I read of a God of love, whom is not a respecter of persons, and loved the entire world so much to suffer and die so that men might be saved and free.
When I read the writings of Calvinists... I find the opposite being taught. And I find commonly people can't answer basic questions about their beliefs. Both of which are MAJOR series of red flags.
CoreIssue
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Anthony D'Arienzo
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CoreIssue
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Anthony D'Arienzo
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"Jane_Doe22,
Hello Jane...thanks for your reply and feedback. I will help if I can
[I am trying hard to find the words to say here, to express my beliefs without horribly offending you (knowing that you are a Calvinist).]
Jane, you can speak freely to me, I do not have thin skin. You can disagree, or if you feel the need attack anything I post. I will try and remove some obstacles for you as they appear. I am not here to hurt you but would like to look together at scripture and see why we differ, okay?
[Suffice it to say, when I read scripture, I read of a God of love, whom is not a respecter of persons,]
Agreed, so do I! God loves His people with an everlasting love, In Christ.
[ and loved the entire world so much to suffer and die so that men might be saved and free.]
Yes, Israel thought that God was only coming for them, for Israel. If they understood the OT. scriptures correctly they would have discovered the Jesus was coming to save His people who are scattered all over the world
[When I read the writings of Calvinists... I find the opposite being taught.]
If you can post an example I would be glad to look at it with you.
Calvinists are more careful how they examine the verses. Calvinists see that a covenant making and Covenant keeping God, is who has revealed himself in scripture. So, God saves people in accordance with His eternal purpose.
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
[And I find commonly people can't answer basic questions about their beliefs. Both of which are MAJOR series of red flags.]
i will attempt biblical answers to any question you offer, you might not like the answers, but they will be biblical and truthful
Hello Jane...thanks for your reply and feedback. I will help if I can
[I am trying hard to find the words to say here, to express my beliefs without horribly offending you (knowing that you are a Calvinist).]
Jane, you can speak freely to me, I do not have thin skin. You can disagree, or if you feel the need attack anything I post. I will try and remove some obstacles for you as they appear. I am not here to hurt you but would like to look together at scripture and see why we differ, okay?
[Suffice it to say, when I read scripture, I read of a God of love, whom is not a respecter of persons,]
Agreed, so do I! God loves His people with an everlasting love, In Christ.
[ and loved the entire world so much to suffer and die so that men might be saved and free.]
Yes, Israel thought that God was only coming for them, for Israel. If they understood the OT. scriptures correctly they would have discovered the Jesus was coming to save His people who are scattered all over the world
[When I read the writings of Calvinists... I find the opposite being taught.]
If you can post an example I would be glad to look at it with you.
Calvinists are more careful how they examine the verses. Calvinists see that a covenant making and Covenant keeping God, is who has revealed himself in scripture. So, God saves people in accordance with His eternal purpose.
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
[And I find commonly people can't answer basic questions about their beliefs. Both of which are MAJOR series of red flags.]
i will attempt biblical answers to any question you offer, you might not like the answers, but they will be biblical and truthful
Augustine actually made allowance for free will as I quoted from his own writings. Luther and Calvin distorted the truth by claiming that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel.
But since Christ and the apostles plainly said that the Gospel must be preached and sinners must respond by either believing or not believing, the Bible does NOT support the false Reformation teaching about free will.
VictoryinJesus
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Then what are the verses on God being the one to choose so no flesh can glory? Or that no man can boast. Or the ones on God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy and whom He will harden? Do we just skip over those and continue on with ‘man decides’? God calls all but it is ultimately up to man? Which means the first step is made by the flesh in believing. Can God put any man on his knees in submission to God’s will whenever God chooses?
Daniel 4:37
[37] Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Instead we tip-toe and dance around playing God can’t or won’t bring ALL men to salvation if that is His will to do so. The other excuse: God would not force anyone to see Him...if the man wasn’t asking or looking. Tell that to Paul.
Slavery is not love. Force is not love. Calvinism is not love. The Bible does not preach of a being whom hated so much he created a bunch of people to force to hell and a bunch of people to forcefully be slaves."Jane_Doe22,
Hello Jane...thanks for your reply and feedback. I will help if I can
[I am trying hard to find the words to say here, to express my beliefs without horribly offending you (knowing that you are a Calvinist).]
Jane, you can speak freely to me, I do not have thin skin. You can disagree, or if you feel the need attack anything I post. I will try and remove some obstacles for you as they appear. I am not here to hurt you but would like to look together at scripture and see why we differ, okay?
[Suffice it to say, when I read scripture, I read of a God of love, whom is not a respecter of persons,]
Agreed, so do I! God loves His people with an everlasting love, In Christ.
[ and loved the entire world so much to suffer and die so that men might be saved and free.]
Yes, Israel thought that God was only coming for them, for Israel. If they understood the OT. scriptures correctly they would have discovered the Jesus was coming to save His people who are scattered all over the world
[When I read the writings of Calvinists... I find the opposite being taught.]
If you can post an example I would be glad to look at it with you.
Calvinists are more careful how they examine the verses. Calvinists see that a covenant making and Covenant keeping God, is who has revealed himself in scripture. So, God saves people in accordance with His eternal purpose.
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
[And I find commonly people can't answer basic questions about their beliefs. Both of which are MAJOR series of red flags.]
i will attempt biblical answers to any question you offer, you might not like the answers, but they will be biblical and truthful
Those who are saved by grace do not boast about their salvation. They know it is all of God and all of grace.
God says that He wants to show mercy TO ALL. And He hardens only those who firstly choose to harden their hearts over and over again.
Men do decide to either believe the Gospel or disbelieve it. God does not do the believing, neither does He choose to give some saving faith while ignoring others.
Exactly. Keep in mind that Israel was an elect nation, and if indeed God was choosing to save, then He would have saved every Jew. But we see the opposite in Scripture, because the Jews chose to reject Christ (by and large)
How can the first step be made by the flesh (which is at enmity with God)? The first step is made by God in the commandment to preach the Gospel to every creature. The second step is made by God the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing sinners as they hear or read the Gospel. The third step is for sinners to either obey the Gospel and be saved, or reject the Gospel and be damned.
There's your answer. If all would believe, all would be saved. *But they have not all obeyed the Gospel*.
Absolutely. But God compels none to be saved. If He were compelling, then all would be saved.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Considering Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan and the head mystery Babylon are you sure you want to use him as a proof text?
I don't tiptoe around the issue you brought. God gave us all free will to choose as he did the angels. Some chose God and send it.
His will is free will.
Otherwise we are robots programmed programmed, which makes God not loving or kind but a puppetmaster.
Paul made it very clear we all have choices. Just look at Romans.
Man is sinful, there is no denying. There is also noted God gave us an escape from sin. But we have to want it and we have to repent to get it.
What you're pushing says God didn't have to take on human flesh nor did he have to die on the cross. He could have simply created some right in heaven and the rest right in hell.
Calvinism is so full of logic and contradictions it takes a massive ego believe they are part of the chosen elite.
Have you ever heard anybody say they were predestined for hell? Or a verse that says irresistible damnation?
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Jane_Doe22,
[Slavery is not love. Force is not love.]
Who said anything about force? see here;psalm110:3
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
[ Calvinism is not love.]
I am not sure you understand Calvinism. I think perhaps you might be reacting to what those who oppose Calvinistic teaching say. Jesus taught all the teaching contained in Calvinism
[The Bible does not preach of a being whom hated so much he created a bunch of people to force to hell and a bunch of people to forcefully be slaves.]
Calvinism does not teach that either....from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
[Slavery is not love. Force is not love.]
Who said anything about force? see here;psalm110:3
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
[ Calvinism is not love.]
I am not sure you understand Calvinism. I think perhaps you might be reacting to what those who oppose Calvinistic teaching say. Jesus taught all the teaching contained in Calvinism
[The Bible does not preach of a being whom hated so much he created a bunch of people to force to hell and a bunch of people to forcefully be slaves.]
Calvinism does not teach that either....from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
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