The Five Points of Calvinism

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

Jane_Doe22,

[Slavery is not love. Force is not love.]
Who said anything about force?

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(Again, with all due respect to you)

From where I'm standing: Calvinism is ALL about force and denial of free will. It is a a doctrine of slavery and hatred.
If you want to use your own words to tell me how you see God offering salvation to every single person, and each person having the choice to accept/reject it, then please do.

CoreIssue said:

Some chose God and send it.

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Some chose God...why? Are they smarter? Listened when others wouldn’t? That implies special. Different from the neighbor that wouldn’t listen.

CoreIssue said:

What you're pushing says God didn't have to take on human flesh nor did he have to die on the cross. He could have simply created some right in heaven and the rest right in hell.

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Christ is the only way.

CoreIssue said:

Calvinism is so full of logic and contradictions it takes a massive ego believe they are part of the chosen elite.

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But there you said some choose to believe while others don’t. Isn’t that ‘elite’? You are okay with special but not while saying God did the choosing...just man?

CoreIssue said:

Have you ever heard anybody say they were predestined for hell? Or a verse that says irresistible damnation?

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I might be.

VictoryinJesus said:

Some chose God...why? Are they smarter? Listened when others wouldn’t? That implies special. Different from the neighbor that wouldn’t listen.



Christ is the only way.



But there you said some choose to believe while others don’t. Isn’t that ‘elite’? You are okay with special but not while saying God did the choosing...just man?



I might be.

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Not convincing arguments of all.

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

[God says that He wants to show mercy TO ALL.]
This is not what scripture says, in fact it is contrary to Romans 9
Not in scripture Enoch, he does say this however;

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

[And He hardens only those who firstly choose to harden their hearts over and over again.]
All men are born sinners and haters of God
[Men do decide to either believe the Gospel or disbelieve it.]

Wrong again, men always resist the gospel until God allows them to repent and believe.

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

[ God does not do the believing, neither does He choose to give some saving faith while ignoring others.]
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

[Exactly. Keep in mind that Israel was an elect nation, and if indeed God was choosing to save, then He would have saved every Jew. But we see the opposite in Scripture, because the Jews chose to reject Christ (by and large)]

The nation was chosen among the nations, but not all in the nation were True Israel;rom9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[How can the first step be made by the flesh (which is at enmity with God)? The first step is made by God in the commandment to preach the Gospel to every creature. The second step is made by God the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing sinners as they hear or read the Gospel. The third step is for sinners to either obey the Gospel and be saved, or reject the Gospel and be damned.]

Wrong again, the 3rd step is the Holy Spirit giving a new heart enabling the sinner to repent and believe the gospel
[Absolutely. But God compels none to be saved. If He were compelling, then all would be saved.]

God indeed compels His sheep;
jn10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God indeed compels His sheep

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NO!!!! God is not a slaver!!!

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

jn10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

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This quote does NOT remotely support the slavery you are advocating.
When a sheep chooses to follow the shepard, it is because they are choosing to follow, out of affection to him.
They are not forced, nor threatened via dogs or such things a low-quality sheep herded does.

Enoch111 said:

Those who are saved by grace do not boast about their salvation. They know it is all of God and all of grace.

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Ok. Do you believe you are better then the one who chooses to not believe?

Enoch111 said:

God says that He wants to show mercy TO ALL.

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He has and will.

Enoch111 said:

Exactly. Keep in mind that Israel was an elect nation, and if indeed God was choosing to save, then He would have saved every Jew. But we see the opposite in Scripture, because the Jews chose to reject Christ (by and large)

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Romans 11:30-33
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Enoch111 said:

How can the first step be made by the flesh (which is at enmity with God)?

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Read...the third step is for the flesh to obey the gospel and ‘be saved or reject and be damned’

Enoch111 said:

The third step is for sinners to either obey the Gospel and be saved, or reject the Gospel and be damned.

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Enoch111 said:

If all would believe, all would be saved. *But they have not all obeyed the Gospel*.

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Which means it is up to man and not God.

Enoch111 said:

Absolutely. But God compels none to be saved. If He were compelling, then all would be saved.

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Not compelling but His will be done.
Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

VictoryinJesus said:

Ok. Do you believe you are better then the one who chooses to not believe?

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No.

VictoryinJesus said:

He has and will.

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Not according to Calvinism. In Calvinism, the atonement is limited only to a elect elite class. Rest of men were just created to be tortured forever.

VictoryinJesus said:

Which means it is up to man and not God..

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Nonsense. A person just accepts Christ's gift. That person didn't remotely make that gift, nor were they worthy of it. They just accept what He offered.

VictoryinJesus said:

Not compelling but His will be done.

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If you deny free will, then you picture God as a slaver who is all about force.

CoreIssue said:

Not convincing arguments of all.

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Of course not.

God chooses.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

[God says that He wants to show mercy TO ALL.]
This is not what scripture says, in fact it is contrary to Romans 9
Not in scripture Enoch, he does say this however;

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

[And He hardens only those who firstly choose to harden their hearts over and over again.]
All men are born sinners and haters of God
[Men do decide to either believe the Gospel or disbelieve it.]

Wrong again, men always resist the gospel until God allows them to repent and believe.

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

[ God does not do the believing, neither does He choose to give some saving faith while ignoring others.]
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

[Exactly. Keep in mind that Israel was an elect nation, and if indeed God was choosing to save, then He would have saved every Jew. But we see the opposite in Scripture, because the Jews chose to reject Christ (by and large)]

The nation was chosen among the nations, but not all in the nation were True Israel;rom9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[How can the first step be made by the flesh (which is at enmity with God)? The first step is made by God in the commandment to preach the Gospel to every creature. The second step is made by God the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing sinners as they hear or read the Gospel. The third step is for sinners to either obey the Gospel and be saved, or reject the Gospel and be damned.]

Wrong again, the 3rd step is the Holy Spirit giving a new heart enabling the sinner to repent and believe the gospel
[Absolutely. But God compels none to be saved. If He were compelling, then all would be saved.]

God indeed compels His sheep;
jn10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

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How about dealing with the totality of Romans 8? It says God for nose who would love him and he then predestined as a mobile with the glorification.

It does not say God predestined who would love him. And it goes on to say nothing in all creation can remove them from God's hands.

Again, those who love him, not those he pre-Destines for salvation.

Jane_Doe22 said:

No.

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Agree.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Not according to Calvinism. In Calvinism, the atonement is limited only to a elect elite class. Rest of men were just created to be tortured forever.

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That is not what I believe. It is not the God I know.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Nonsense. A person just accepts Christ's gift. That person didn't remotely make that gift, nor were they worthy of it. They just accept what He offered.

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I’m sorry but maybe you have to believe that to accept others tortured forever for not accepting the gift. It is their own fault? They could have accepted right?

Jane_Doe22 said:

If you deny free will, then you picture God as a slaver who is all about force.

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who would you rather rule over you? man(flesh)? Or Christ(Spirit)?

VictoryinJesus said:

Of course not.

God chooses.

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Trying to spin it does not make it more true.

CoreIssue said:

Trying to spin it does not make it more true.

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Pride makes it very true. God does the choosing.

VictoryinJesus said:

Pride makes it very true. God does the choosing.

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But the Bible does not support Calvinism.

CoreIssue said:

But the Bible does not support Calvinism.

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Never said it does.

God chose Paul and even sent a messenger of satan to serve Paul in keeping that pride in check. Again, we tip-toe around God draws all men to...but He (God) wouldn’t force anyone, rather than force His will(which IS love)...God would rather they spend forever in hell.

VictoryinJesus said:

Never said it does.

God chose Paul and even sent a messenger of satan to serve Paul in keeping that pride in check. Again, we tip-toe around God draws all men to...but He (God) wouldn’t force anyone, rather than force His will...God would rather they spend forever in hell.

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No tiptoeing. Every human born has the law of conscious within. They have scriptures to read and the Holy Spirit whispering in her ear.

God wants everybody saved but he forces no one to repent.

That does not mean God would rather they spend eternity in the lake. It means everyone has their own free will choice where they spend eternity.

VictoryinJesus said:

Agree.



That is not what I believe. It is not the God I know.



I’m sorry but maybe you have to believe that to accept others tortured forever for not accepting the gift. It is their own fault? They could have accepted right?

who would you rather rule over you? man(flesh)? Or Christ(Spirit)?

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My beliefs: God creates and loves all people, and offers His gift to all people. If someone choose to reject God's gift, their damnation is not because God didn't love them.
Calvinist beliefs are not that.

VictoryinJesus said:

who would you rather rule over you? man(flesh)? Or Christ(Spirit)?

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I loving shepard I *choose* to follow. Not a slave master.

Dave L said:

It might be wise to say you disagree with the 5 points. But to blaspheme their presentation of God based on ignorance is not wise.

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You may go on about blaspheming to try scare the world into believing you, but since you dont believe God, you have said that over and over. Too much study and no asking, but how can one ask when one doesnt believe on can hear, or is it "refuses" to hear.

CoreIssue said:

Remember she is a Mormon.

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CoreIssue said:

God wants all saved and everyone gets an invitation. Up to them to choose.

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