Who is the Whore of babylon

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gadar perets

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Scholarly documentation must be frightening for you, since all you do is rant meaningless zingers. Why don't you find some reputable sources of RECENT historians to back up your ignorant insults?
I guess you did not read post #488 or are documents from the Vatican archives unacceptable to you?

There is no point in discussion anything with you. You borrow from the SDA, the JW's, fundamentalists. To my knowledge, Messianic Jews, or Hebrew Christian, or what-ever-group you're with this week, ARE NOT AS ANTI-CATHOLIC AS YOU.
What we should discuss is the psychological causes and effects of apostasy.
I actually purposely avoid quoting anything from SDAs, JWs, and any other group so people like you don't accuse me of doing so. I quote from Scripture or Catholic sources.

Apostasy from the Catholic church stems from being unable to accept false doctrines, murders, idolatry, etc. The effect was that Yeshua brought me out of it and into his true church. Blessed be his name.
 

gadar perets

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You seem to bow down to the teachings of your rabbi or leader. Or maybe you are the leader.
My Rabbi is Yeshua. He is my immediate head. I bow down to only two beings in this universe, my Father YHWH and my Saviour Yeshua. And I don't bow down to Yeshua as the one true God, but as my Master and King.
 

BreadOfLife

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The true Body of Messiah throughout the world is the true "church", not the Catholic church with its head in Rome. BTW, our congregation assembles every YHWH given holy day throughout the year and we exercise all that the Apostles taught in their epistles. Your "church" assembles on every man made "holy" day throughout the year. Catholics think their church has the authority to change YHWH's weekly Sabbath day to Sunday, but, in reality, the Catholic church has done nothing but lead her followers and her harlot daughters into sin.
Christ, who is GOD, gave His Church SUPREME Authority - that WHATEVER it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

As for the Sabbath - Christ stated that the Sabbath was made for man - NOT man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).

Finally - Paul assures us that we are NOT to let people like YOU judge us in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or a Sabbath (Col. 2:16). These were simply SHADOWS of things to come. The reality is CHRIST (Col. 2:17).
Apparently - YOU haven't learned that yet . . .
I agree. We differ on how "church" is defined.
WRONG.
You don't even know what it means . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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trinity is THE basic tenet of Christianity, that is, post-Paul Christianity.
Yeshua taught no such thing EVER. He ALWAYS taught his Father was greater than he. I agree that the
WRONG, Einstein . . .
Matt. 28:19:20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

John 10:30
I and the Father are ONE.

Finally, you understand that I am not a Protestant or a Christian. I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and will NOT bow down to the Pope or accept the false doctrines of the Catholic church or Protestant church.
Yes, it's QUITE clear that you are NOT a Christian.
Good luck with that . . .
 
B

brakelite

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I want ACTUAL historical evidence . .
Oh my goodness, where to start? In considering the victims of Papal Rome's excesses, one cannot ignore the numerous wars fought by civil armies against the Popes' enemies over the centuries at the instigation of Papal pressure and demands. I suppose we could start with the wars against those so-called heretics which began as early as the 4th century...those who rejected the councils and arrogant pronouncements from the Roman Emperor in support of the Nicean and subsequent council formulas and creeds on the Godhead/trinity. Of course no-one but God knows the precise numbers of individuals killed because they denied the trinity, but 3 entire nations were consequentially destroyed, among other reasons, because they were deemed heretic Arians. The Goths, the Heruli, and the Vandals. The Goths and the Vandals in particular were large powerful groups, and because they were Arian, and refused to accept Papal authority, they needed to be removed before any bishop of Rome could exercise the civil and religious power promised by Justinian 1. Numbers killed would be anyone's guess, but shall we settle on 1 million as a very conservative guestimate?
The numbers of Waldenses killed can also never be accurately stated, but when one considers the time period over which the Popes continued their aggressive persecutions and attempts to wipe them out, 1000 years of individuals, families, and villages being completely decimated, and any survivors murdered, any attempt to arrive at a number would be an insult to those who perished.
So just on the subject of wars fought in order to better improve and consolidate papal authority, I would begin with the "conversion" of Clovis to Catholicism and the wars he fought on behalf of the popes...I could list the constant war against the Celtic church which continued into the 8th century at least...the wars in Britain that continued throughout the ensuing centuries until modern times (IRA ring any bells)… the wars through the centuries wwaged on behalf of the so-called "holy Roman Empire" by Charlamagne, Louix 14th, the attempts to unify Europe on behalf of the Jesuits, the first and second world wars...the Vietnam War...the wars against the Hussites...the Albigenses...Huguenots...the 30 years war..."St Bartholomew Day" massacre (which resulted in all the Vatican celebrating and the Pope having a medal struck in honour of the day) … how many millions in all of the above? I haven't mentioned the crusades waged against Moslems and Jews to enthrone the pope upon power in Jerusalem, nor any of the inquisitions as in Spain, India, south America...You claim that not many died at the hand of the inquisitors. Really? What right did the Catholic church have to hold any inquisition to begin with? What right does the Catholic church have, apart from its own assumed authority, to torture people to enforce a confession or a change of faith? How is such actions even remotely related to the gospel?
Now of course you will mention Protestant wars against Catholicism. Go ahead. I am not justifying murder on one side in order to condemn another. All who murder are guilty. I would protest and deny however that any Protestant participation in war was anything other than self defense. And the very few instances of persecution against Catholics by Protestants (your own numbers even if accurate) pales in comparison to the millions, yes I said millions, that have suffered and died at the hands of power hungry despots claiming the throne of Peter.

You STILL can’t account for the first FIVE ENTURIES of Christianity and this mythical faithful “remnant” of yours.

Did you know BoL that out of the three hundred eighteen bishops who signed the decrees of the great Council of Nicaea in 325 - the first general church council - only seven were from the Latin West? Where did the others come from? They weren't Roman Catholic; their churches hadn't been begun by Roman missionaries; they had no idea of submission to the Roman bishops; many of their churches in their native lands were initialised by missionaries from Antioch, Edessa, or Asia minor. Those churches quickly grew to number 100s of 1000s, then ,millions...in territories never visited by missionaries from Rome until Jesuits went to these places and found an extinct Christianity from centuries previous.
But you asked where was the church in the first 500 years that wasn't attached to Rome...how about the church at Milan and Turin...whose bishop refused to recognise papal authority and held out against Rome for several hundred years?
What of the church in Ethiopia begun by the emissary baptised by Philip? What of the church in India begun by Thomas? Do you really believe, seriously, that Rome had anything whatsoever to do with the establishment of any of the above churches?
 
B

brakelite

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As for the Sabbath - Christ stated that the Sabbath was made for man - NOT man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).
I am totally not sure why you quoted this scripture. How exactly does it help your case? Please explain with a little exegesis.
So the presumed supreme authority the church claims even goes so far as changing the laws of God because the CC changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the first. Right? So the CC has more authority even than God Himself. Okay. No wonder so many get into trouble when they deny this. You and those like you do not hesitate to kill those who disagree with your church because you think you are doing God a favour. So if you think you are impressing God by killing all opposition, little wonder that you believe you can say what you like here with impunity. God loves BoL and so BoL can say and do what he likes...God has given him delegated (from his archbishop) authority to do so.
 

epostle

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Please explain the article found here. Here is an excerpt.

For centuries people were burned at the stake, stretched to death or otherwise tortured for failing to be Roman Catholic. But, if research released by the Vatican is right, the Inquisition was not as bad as one might think.

According to the documents from Vatican archives relating to the trials of Jews, Muslims, Cathars, witches, scientists and other non-Catholics in Europe between the 13th and the 19th centuries, the number actually killed or tortured into confession during the Inquisition was far fewer than previously thought.​
If you can't produce accessible "documents" for everyone to see, you are just regurgitating the same boring anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are convinced that millions died.
Again, you don't name any historians. Archive evidence has revealed that your "historians" are outdated and erroneous. RECENT reputable historians don't fall for those ridiculous exaggerations. I can ask for recent scholarly documentation accessible on line repeatedly, you will never give one, because none of them support your hate.

But according to Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome and curator of the 783-page volume released yesterday, only 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed.
This quote is copied directly from "The Guardian", a left wing anti-Catholic news rag, which is duplicated in several other news sources. The same article also says,
Other experts told journalists at the Vatican yesterday that many of the thousands of executions conventionally attributed to the church were in fact carried out by non-church tribunals.
Here is another line from the Guardian you obviously skipped over:

European and North American historians have been searching the archives since a Vatican conference on the Inquisition in 1998.

Their findings support the recent theories of some independent historians that the Spanish Inquisition has been exaggerated into a kind of legend.
You didn't post the link because context is your enemy.
Historians say Inquisition wasn't that bad

If you can't be bothered reading your own sources, you won't be bothered reading any of my facts. You are a waste of time.​
If Borromeo's numbers are correct, that means 1,250 people were murdered by the Catholic Church. Does that not disturb you? I doubt the numbers were that low, but even if they were, it is a sign that the Catholic leaders during that time period were downright evil unbelievers. Add those murders to the plethora of people that were sexually abused by Catholic clergy even to today and you have clear signs that the Catholic institution is a carnal church at best and not of YHWH or Yeshua at the worst.
More hate from an angry anti-Catholic.
People were executed for crimes against the state by the state, not the Church. Heresy and treason was the same crime back then. Criminals were handed over to the state when church officials failed to get them to repent. The Church does not have, and never did have, the authority to execute anyone. Your propaganda is old, outdated, and does not work on people well versed on this very complicated topic. It also doesn't work on people familiar with the recent discoveries in the Archives. Still, the Inquisition is a favorite weapon for angry bigots who rely on outdated myths.

Find a quote where Professor Agostino Borromeo holds the Church directly responsible for any executions. Until you do, you are just another irrational fist-shaking anti-Catholic. Better still, find a direct quote from Pf. Borromeo that says the same thing as the editorialized media statistics. You won't, because he never said that. You wont find the media manipulations in his book either.

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition, and the Start of Modern Propaganda
It was historically believed that the Spanish Inquisition was a bloody religious persecution full of torture and genocide, but recent data shows this view is essentially a myth created by Protestants to slander Catholics.[1][2][3][4]
The Legend of the Spanish Inquisition is Largely Propaganda - Fact or Myth?
(not a Catholic site)

Modern historical research has uncovered facts that dismantle many of these centuries-old falsehoods. Here are some quick corrections concerning popular misunderstandings:
The Spanish Inquisition: Debunking the Legends
(not a Catholic site)

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
Because it was both professional and efficient, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records. These documents are a goldmine for modern historians who have plunged greedily into them. Thus far, the fruits of that research have made one thing abundantly clear — the myth of the Spanish Inquisition has nothing at all to do with the real thing.
The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition - Crisis Magazine

See gadar? I provide sources. Try it sometime.
 
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gadar perets

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You didn't post the link because context is your enemy.​
I posted the link to the entire article. You just don't read well.

So tell me, are you saying the Catholic Church has NO blood on her hands? Or some blood? Or a lot of blood, but not as much as Protestants? What are you saying?
 

BreadOfLife

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Oh my goodness, where to start? In considering the victims of Papal Rome's excesses, one cannot ignore the numerous wars fought by civil armies against the Popes' enemies over the centuries at the instigation of Papal pressure and demands. I suppose we could start with the wars against those so-called heretics which began as early as the 4th century...those who rejected the councils and arrogant pronouncements from the Roman Emperor in support of the Nicean and subsequent council formulas and creeds on the Godhead/trinity. Of course no-one but God knows the precise numbers of individuals killed because they denied the trinity, but 3 entire nations were consequentially destroyed, among other reasons, because they were deemed heretic Arians. The Goths, the Heruli, and the Vandals. The Goths and the Vandals in particular were large powerful groups, and because they were Arian, and refused to accept Papal authority, they needed to be removed before any bishop of Rome could exercise the civil and religious power promised by Justinian 1. Numbers killed would be anyone's guess, but shall we settle on 1 million as a very conservative guestimate?
The numbers of Waldenses killed can also never be accurately stated, but when one considers the time period over which the Popes continued their aggressive persecutions and attempts to wipe them out, 1000 years of individuals, families, and villages being completely decimated, and any survivors murdered, any attempt to arrive at a number would be an insult to those who perished.
So just on the subject of wars fought in order to better improve and consolidate papal authority, I would begin with the "conversion" of Clovis to Catholicism and the wars he fought on behalf of the popes...I could list the constant war against the Celtic church which continued into the 8th century at least...the wars in Britain that continued throughout the ensuing centuries until modern times (IRA ring any bells)… the wars through the centuries wwaged on behalf of the so-called "holy Roman Empire" by Charlamagne, Louix 14th, the attempts to unify Europe on behalf of the Jesuits, the first and second world wars...the Vietnam War...the wars against the Hussites...the Albigenses...Huguenots...the 30 years war..."St Bartholomew Day" massacre (which resulted in all the Vatican celebrating and the Pope having a medal struck in honour of the day) … how many millions in all of the above? I haven't mentioned the crusades waged against Moslems and Jews to enthrone the pope upon power in Jerusalem, nor any of the inquisitions as in Spain, India, south America...You claim that not many died at the hand of the inquisitors. Really? What right did the Catholic church have to hold any inquisition to begin with? What right does the Catholic church have, apart from its own assumed authority, to torture people to enforce a confession or a change of faith? How is such actions even remotely related to the gospel?
Now of course you will mention Protestant wars against Catholicism. Go ahead. I am not justifying murder on one side in order to condemn another. All who murder are guilty. I would protest and deny however that any Protestant participation in war was anything other than self defense. And the very few instances of persecution against Catholics by Protestants (your own numbers even if accurate) pales in comparison to the millions, yes I said millions, that have suffered and died at the hands of power hungry despots claiming the throne of Peter.
Soooooo, in your abject ignorance, you blame virtually EVERY war in the last 2000 years on the Catholic Church. This post reads like an idiotic Jack Chick track with its charges against the Church for causing the WWI, WWII and - VIETNAM??

What a truly asinine and pathetically desperate reach . . .
Did you know BoL that out of the three hundred eighteen bishops who signed the decrees of the great Council of Nicaea in 325 - the first general church council - only seven were from the Latin West? Where did the others come from? They weren't Roman Catholic; their churches hadn't been begun by Roman missionaries; they had no idea of submission to the Roman bishops; many of their churches in their native lands were initialised by missionaries from Antioch, Edessa, or Asia minor. Those churches quickly grew to number 100s of 1000s, then ,millions...in territories never visited by missionaries from Rome until Jesuits went to these places and found an extinct Christianity from centuries previous.
But you asked where was the church in the first 500 years that wasn't attached to Rome...how about the church at Milan and Turin...whose bishop refused to recognise papal authority and held out against Rome for several hundred years?
What of the church in Ethiopia begun by the emissary baptised by Philip? What of the church in India begun by Thomas? Do you really believe, seriously, that Rome had anything whatsoever to do with the establishment of any of the above churches?
ALL I asked you to prove was the “millions” of people YOU claim that the Church has supposedly killed – and instead, you offer this idiotic, verbose rant. If you don’t have any proof – just ADMIT it and move on . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I am totally not sure why you quoted this scripture. How exactly does it help your case? Please explain with a little exegesis.
So the presumed supreme authority the church claims even goes so far as changing the laws of God because the CC changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the first. Right? So the CC has more authority even than God Himself. Okay. No wonder so many get into trouble when they deny this. You and those like you do not hesitate to kill those who disagree with your church because you think you are doing God a favour. So if you think you are impressing God by killing all opposition, little wonder that you believe you can say what you like here with impunity. God loves BoL and so BoL can say and do what he likes...God has given him delegated (from his archbishop) authority to do so.
WHY did Jesus say that the Sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the Sabbath?

It was because He and His disciples were picking heads of grain to eat on the Sabbath – to the shock and disapproval pf the Pharisees because of their legalism. Jesus explained to them that they were hungry and that this was not a violation of the Sabbath. Their legalism was more of an offense to God that Jesus and His disciples picking grain.

Jesus chided them and reminded them WHY there was a Sabbath in the first place because they were hypocrites. It was a day of RESTNOT a day of self-denial.

YOU are nothing but a modern-day Pharisee with your legalistic attachment to the SHADOW that was the Sabbath which was FULFILLED in Christ (2 Col. 16).
 
B

brakelite

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WHY did Jesus say that the Sabbath was made for man and NOT man for the Sabbath?

It was because He and His disciples were picking heads of grain to eat on the Sabbath – to the shock and disapproval pf the Pharisees because of their legalism. Jesus explained to them that they were hungry and that this was not a violation of the Sabbath. Their legalism was more of an offense to God that Jesus and His disciples picking grain.

Jesus chided them and reminded them WHY there was a Sabbath in the first place because they were hypocrites. It was a day of RESTNOT a day of self-denial.

YOU are nothing but a modern-day Pharisee with your legalistic attachment to the SHADOW that was the Sabbath which was FULFILLED in Christ (2 Col. 16).
I agree with your summation of why the Sabbath as made for man. Well done, that was what I was looking for. But, and a big BUT, how does that help your case that the Sabbath is no longer relevant? Jesus, as Creator, made the Sabbath...it was Jesus who made the Sabbath for man, as you said. It was Jesus therefore who made the Sabbath holy and sacred. Right? So when did He change that? When did the Sabbath cease from being for man, and become unholy, not sacred, and if many were to be believed, a burden? The next question of course is from whom did the church in the 4th century get the idea they had the authority to change what Jesus had already declared a sacred a day for man's benefit?
 

gadar perets

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Christ, who is GOD, gave His Church SUPREME Authority - that WHATEVER it ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
He is not God in the sense you think he is and he certainly did not give the church the authority to change YHWH's laws.

As for the Sabbath - Christ stated that the Sabbath was made for man - NOT man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27).
Correct, but he was referring to the 7th day Sabbath, not the man-made first day "Sabbath".

Finally - Paul assures us that we are NOT to let people like YOU judge us in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or a Sabbath (Col. 2:16). These were simply SHADOWS of things to come. The reality is CHRIST (Col. 2:17).
Paul was writing to a church that was keeping the Sabbath, festivals, food laws, etc. He was telling them not to let anyone outside the Body of Messiah judge them as to how they kept those laws.
 

gadar perets

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Matt. 28:19:20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Yes, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The trinity goes far beyond Yeshua's words to make three co-equal, co-eternal persons in one God. Talk about adding to the Word.

John 10:30
I and the Father are ONE.
Yes, one in the EXACT same sense that believers are to be one (a oneness of purpose, not a oneness of being or a oneness of deity)(John 17:11,22).
 

BreadOfLife

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I agree with your summation of why the Sabbath as made for man. Well done, that was what I was looking for. But, and a big BUT, how does that help your case that the Sabbath is no longer relevant? Jesus, as Creator, made the Sabbath...it was Jesus who made the Sabbath for man, as you said. It was Jesus therefore who made the Sabbath holy and sacred. Right? So when did He change that? When did the Sabbath cease from being for man, and become unholy, not sacred, and if many were to be believed, a burden? The next question of course is from whom did the church in the 4th century get the idea they had the authority to change what Jesus had already declared a sacred a day for man's benefit?
Apparently you HAVEN'T been reading.

Col. 2:16 points to the Sabbath as a SHADOW of what was to come. CHRIST is the reality.
Paul makes a point of telling his readers to NOT allow people like YOU, who still hold to the shadow and NOT the reality judge them.

YOU are stuck in the types instead of the fulfillments.
I am stuck on CHRIST . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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He is not God in the sense you think he is and he certainly did not give the church the authority to change YHWH's laws.
Correct, but he was referring to the 7th day Sabbath, not the man-made first day "Sabbath".[/QUOTE]
The Church didn't "change" the Sabbath - Christ FULFILLED it (Col. 2:16).
Paul was writing to a church that was keeping the Sabbath, festivals, food laws, etc. He was telling them not to let anyone outside the Body of Messiah judge them as to how they kept those laws.
WRONG.

As I schooled you earlier - he referred to the Sabbath as a "SHADOW" of what was to come.
CHRIST is the reality - but, in your legalism, you fail to see that . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Yes, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The trinity goes far beyond Yeshua's words to make three co-equal, co-eternal persons in one God. Talk about adding to the Word.
Yes, one in the EXACT same sense that believers are to be one (a oneness of purpose, not a oneness of being or a oneness of deity)(John 17:11,22).
I haven't added anything to the Word of God.
The Word of God says that the Trinity is GOD . . .

Matt. 28:19

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Fatherthe Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

1 Cor. 12:4-6
"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14,
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE.

The Father is God
Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 63:16
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:41
You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:13
So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus is God
Isaiah 7:14

All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

John 1:3
ALL things were made by HIM (Jesus); and without him was not ANY thing made that was made.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."

John 15:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to GOD.

2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Philippians 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Colossians 2:9
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ


The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
*This word in Greek means, “another of the SAME kind.”

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU?

John 14:23
Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."
 

epostle

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I posted the link to the entire article. You just don't read well.

So tell me, are you saying the Catholic Church has NO blood on her hands? Or some blood? Or a lot of blood, but not as much as Protestants? What are you saying?
No, I'm saying your stupid exaggerations is hate propaganda. I read the entire article, you obviously did not. I am also saying the alleged quote from Professor Agostino Borromeo isn't a quote at all, but one line taken out of context and editorialized by the media known for its hostility. It is a lie you fell for. I don't deny that bad things happened, and neither does the Pope. But holding Catholics and Protestants accountable today for sins committed centuries ago is nothing more than persecution and sadism. The false histories, lies and exaggerations is a gospel of hate.
 
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brakelite

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No, it doesn't, except in your paraphrase. Here is the actual quote...
Xol.2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The important questions here are , is the weekly Sabbath a shadow of things to come? and What were the shadows, and why were they established?
  1. So, when the weekly Sabbath was established, did it reveal to anyone who would honour it, from either Adam to today, something to come? The answer is no. When it was established it was not a shadow, but a memorial of something already accomplished...creation. Read Genesis 2:1-3 and God clearly reveals precisely why He blessed and made the Sabbath holy...because that in it He had rested from all His work of creation...and in Exodus 20:11 we are told why we must also rest on that day...because in 6 days the Lord made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. This is precisely why we are to worship God and Him only. Because He is our Creator. The Sabbath was instituted to remind us of that. In fact, remove the Sabbath commandments from the ten, such as the CC has done, and there is left no declaration as to who God is, why He is worthy of our reverence, and what position He holds in the universe. The 9 commandments could pertain to any god, even your neighbours dog, and make perfect sense, if you choose to do so. The 7th commandment however precisely identifies the one true God, HIs realm or kingdom, and His title.

    Later, the Sabbath became not only a memorial to creation, but also of salvation...a sign of sanctification. But the weekly Sabbath was never a shadow in the same sense as the annual Sabbath feast days...
  2. ...which were shadows. The weekly Sabbath, not being a shadow, therefore means that what Paul was talking about were the other Sabbaths...those that were shadows, whichpointed to Christ and His salvation to come. You see BoL, you are making the same mistake even Protestants make today. You fail to recognise that when the Sabbath was instituted, there was no sin, no rebellion, no need for a Saviour, therefore no need for shadows pointing to that Saviour.
 
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brakelite

Guest
Apparently you HAVEN'T been reading.

Col. 2:16 points to the Sabbath as a SHADOW of what was to come. CHRIST is the reality.
Paul makes a point of telling his readers to NOT allow people like YOU, who still hold to the shadow and NOT the reality judge them.

YOU are stuck in the types instead of the fulfillments.
I am stuck on CHRIST . . .
One further thought...you quoted earlier a statement from Jesus which I assume you agreed with, that the Sabbath was made for man. Can you please explain how you now maintain that Paul is saying the exact opposite, that the Sabbath is now "contrary to man", as per Col2:14?
 

mjrhealth

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You left the Catholic Church for another version of Christianity and you claim that you’re NOT a Protestant??

YOU are a TEXTBOOK example of what a Protestant is.
There are only THREE kinds of Christian - and by "Christian" I mean Trinitarian:
- Catholic
- Orthodox
- Protestant


Everything else is an offshoot of Christianity.
What planet are YOU from??
its funny how to call every one a protestant yet it is you who does the most protesting against the truth, and catholsim has being dong that for centuries, but they are no better, daughters of the harlot all have the same genes how did Jesus put it,

Act_9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

and all the religious still do.