Calling Paul a liar

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RichardBurger

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Calling Paul a liar:When some say Dispensationalists use foolish dribble (the words Mystery and Hidden) they are not insulting Dispensationalist, they are insulting Paul and making what he said a lie. Either this church age was a mystery, hidden in God, as Paul told us, or Paul is a liar and most of our NT Bible is based on a person that has lied to us. When people make fun of the words "Mystery and Hidden" they are making fun of Paul. When these people insist that this church age was not a "MYSTERY" "HIDDEN" in God when the very scriptures they call the word of God, say that it was, they are refusing to believe the word of God that they say they believe in. In their zeal to keep a blended religion and one dispensation theology they simple will not see the truth.Some refuse to see the truth of the mystery. They say that the "mystery" was just that the Gentiles would be saved too. But that does not explain 1 Cor 2:7-8 shown below. Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known.Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages. People can ignore it and stick their head in the sand all they want to but the truth is still there in the scriptures for all to see. But many people refuse to see it, and they certainly do not want others to see it either. They don't go in themselves and they want to prevent others from going in.Below are two verses of scriptures that most people don't even give a second glance and yet they are so important. 1 Cor 2:7-87 But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, the HIDDEN wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(NKJ)Since people like to say that "The Mystery" was always known how do they explain verse 8 above. The gospel of God's grace is based on a person believing what God did for him/her on the cross. No one could do that until there was a cross. Therefore, in this Dispensation, the only sin that condemns a person is "UNBELIEF" in what God did for them on the cross. God defeated Satan by doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. He defeated Satan and gave us the righteousness of God through faith in What He did on the cross. See Rom 3:21-22, Rom 10:3-4, 2 Cor 5:21.All that is necessary, in this Dispensation, is to have faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what He has done for us on the cross. IF Satan had known of this plan of salvation he would never have let Jesus go to the cross (verse 8 above). Satan thought he had defeated God by making the Jews refuse Him as their king and having Him crucified, but God had another plan that was hidden and it is totally based on what Jesus did on the cross and had nothing to do with the Jewish religion or any other religion.The only option left to Satan today is to make people RELIGIOUS, BUT LOST. Satan has blended the gospel of the kingdom and it's associated laws with the gospel of the grace of God and in doing it is deceiving many and sending them to hell. When people put their faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what they can do to save themselves they are rejecting the work of God on the cross and embracing faith in their own works.I have attached some of the scriptures that Paul wrote using the words, mystery and hidden. Dispensationalist have not made these words up, Paul used them.Rom 16:25-2725 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the MYSTERY kept secret since the world began26 but ****now**** has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.(NKJ) NOTICE THE WORD "NOW" in verse 26. That word does not mean in the past.Eph 3:2-62 if indeed you have heard of the "DISPENSATION" of the grace of God which was given to me for you,3 how that by revelation He made known to me the MYSTERY (as I have briefly written already,4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ),5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has “”now”” been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,(NKJ)Eph 3:9-109 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the ages has been HIDDEN in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;10 to the intent that ***now*** the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,(NKJ)Eph 6:1919 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the MYSTERY of the gospel,(NKJ)Col 1:25-2725 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,26 the MYSTERY which has been HIDDEN from ages and from generations, but ****now**** has been revealed to His saints.27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.(NKJ)Col 4:33 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the MYSTERY of Christ, for which I am also in chains,(NKJ)In addition I would also like to add that when people say that we are still under Laws they are saying that Paul lied when he wrote the following scriptures.Col 2:13-1513 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you ""all trespasses,""14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.(NKJ)If the handwriting of requirements has been taken out of the way, as Paul said, why do people want to put us back under handwritten requirements? Paul said all trespasses not just those in the past.I believe every word I have written and you can believe what ever you wish.Richard
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FoC

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they are not insulting Dispensationalist, they are insulting Paul and making what he said a lie.
Im really not interested in bickering the topic with you, Rich.My point here is that I hear this same nonsense on about a dozen different forums like this a day.EVERY single person who has a viewpoint to express will make a claim of 'Youre not disagreeing with ME, your disagreeing with God/Paul/Jesus/John/etc/etc/etc"Do yourself a favor. Present your assertion, back it with the evidence you believe its supports it and leave it at that.When I see statement like what you started with above it always tells me that the person may not feel that their argument can stand on its own, so an appeal to the authority of Paul/God/John/etc/etc is necessary instead to convince the reader.....this is more like scare tactics than actually proving your case.If your view will stand, it will stand without this appeal.
 

Learning

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Not sure what the point here is. How do we know that Peter and Paul were talking about the same mystery? How do you define mystery? Many mysteries exist today that with a little research can be solved. Maybe the word applies here. It is telling us to read and research the Bible, don't just let it set on a bookshelf. If God wants us to know anything, it will be found in the Bible.
 

RichardBurger

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Im really not interested in bickering the topic with you, Rich.My point here is that I hear this same nonsense on about a dozen different forums like this a day.EVERY single person who has a viewpoint to express will make a claim of 'Youre not disagreeing with ME, your disagreeing with God/Paul/Jesus/John/etc/etc/etc"Do yourself a favor. Present your assertion, back it with the evidence you believe its supports it and leave it at that.When I see statement like what you started with above it always tells me that the person may not feel that their argument can stand on its own, so an appeal to the authority of Paul/God/John/etc/etc is necessary instead to convince the reader.....this is more like scare tactics than actually proving your case.If your view will stand, it will stand without this appeal.
What I said was "When some say Dispensationalists use foolish dribble (the words Mystery and Hidden) they are not insulting Dispensationalist, they are insulting Paul and making what he said a lie. Either this church age was a mystery, hidden in God, as Paul told us, or Paul is a liar and most of our NT Bible is based on a person that has lied to us"It has nothing to do with scare tactics etc. It is stating a fact. Paul did use the words Mystery and Hidden and some say talking about them is Dispensationist dribble. I know that for a fact because they have said it to me.Are there any replies that you make that are not full of criticism? Why should you care how I write my posts? But I see you have nothing to say about the subject of the OP just criticism of me. Why don’t you be nice to people instead of using them to make yourself look good?Richard
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RichardBurger

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Not sure what the point here is. How do we know that Peter and Paul were talking about the same mystery? How do you define mystery? Many mysteries exist today that with a little research can be solved. Maybe the word applies here. It is telling us to read and research the Bible, don't just let it set on a bookshelf. If God wants us to know anything, it will be found in the Bible.
The mystery was solved by the teachings of Paul. It was no longer hidden after it was revealed to Paul.The mystery of the hidden gospel was revealed to Paul, not Peter.If you are not sure then perhaps you should read up on it. I have several websites in mind.Richard
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FoC

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What I said was "When some say Dispensationalists use foolish dribble (the words Mystery and Hidden) they are not insulting Dispensationalist, they are insulting Paul and making what he said a lie. Either this church age was a mystery, hidden in God, as Paul told us, or Paul is a liar and most of our NT Bible is based on a person that has lied to us"It has nothing to do with scare tactics etc. It is stating a fact. Paul did use the words Mystery and Hidden and some say talking about them is Dispensationist dribble. I know that for a fact because they have said it to me.Are there any replies that you make that are not full of criticism? Why should you care how I write my posts? But I see you have nothing to say about the subject of the OP just criticism of me. Why don’t you be nice to people instead of using them to make yourself look good?Richard
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Well, firstly I am not a dispensationalist, so I will not be in agreement with much of what you believe most likely. I have read over some of the beliefs and what Ive seen is the same thing I see in these other 'hyper' doctrines that focus too heavily on certain things said in scripture and create and exaggerated view with them.With MDR, some take a few passages and create an UNconditional marriage covenant.With tongues some do the same and then teach that ALL will speak in tongues, or should (and some teach 'must')With predestination some take wonderful verses meant to show us our Gods sovereignty and then pervert those to actually say that He's so sovereign that HE causes men to sin then damns them to hell for doing it.They take verses that are absolutely true and make them into something they arent.When Ive looked at some Dispensationalist teachings (there seem to be a few variations) its the same thing with many of them. They take some concepts in scripture and exaggerate them well beyond what they were intended....some to the extent that they claim that the church today doesnt need to use some books in the NT written to the Jewish believer in the church, such as the book of Hebrews.I DO believe some of the points that Dispensationalists offer as they are completely scriptural.What I dont agree with is taking them WAY past the extent that they were meant to create a doctrine that is basically as far out there as HyperCalvinism is.Secondly, Im not trying to be critical of you.I was simply stating a fact that when you post it really makes you seem desperate if you start your article/post with something along the lines of "If you disagree with me, youre disagreeing with God"Whether you agree or not, that IS using scare tactics.There are very unstudied believers that roam forums like this and when one that HASNT studied the matter out sees that sort of thing it freaks them out when they DONT agree with your conclusions but think if they dont they they are disagreeing with God Himself.As I said....*IF* your argument will stand, it will stand on its own merit..you wont have to appeal to Pauls authority like you did in the OP and the title of this thread.God blesswm
 

FoC

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The mystery was solved by the teachings of Paul. It was no longer hidden after it was revealed to Paul.The mystery of the hidden gospel was revealed to Paul, not Peter.If you are not sure then perhaps you should read up on it. I have several websites in mind.Richard
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There was no hidden gospel that was anything different than the 'good news' of Jesus Christ.There were simply two entirely different audiences involved...Jesus had to come to His own firstly and be rejected.Things SURELY were unfolding over a period of years from the time of John the baptist until the end of Pauls ministry, but it is an EXAGGERATION to claim that Paul taught a DIFFERENT gospel than Christ did....BOTH men were teaching the 'Good News of Jesus Christ'Each having a different audience and different objective doesnt make them teaching two different gospels.Paul taught the gospel of Christ....Christs gospel...If he had taught any different gospel then he himself needed to be accursed
2 Cor 2:12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
(an interesting point of note for those interested is that 'Christ's Gospel' and 'the Gospel of Christ' above that some make some distinction in are actually the SAME exact phrase that means "well-message of the Anointed". The gospel OF Christ IS 'Christs Gospel' according to the greek !)PAUL DID teach 'Christs gospel" aka the "Gospel of Christ"That Paul built upon that gospel, further explaining it, doesnt make it a different gospel at all.John came firstly and gave some information to the Jews about the gospel. Christ then comes and adds more information, then Paul comes onto the scene and pretty much finishes the whole thing up. That doesnt make it a different gospel. It makes it ONE gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, that unfolded over a period of years thru more than one man.If Paul taught ANY second gospel, if all of these are not the ONE gospel, then Paul is condemned by his own words.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.(Gal 1:6-9 KJV)​
Paul taught Christs gospel...the gospel of Christ...Pauls gospel WAS Christs gospel or again he taught more than one and would be condemned by his very own words.There is ONE gospel and that is the 'good news of Jesus Christ'.There is no 'good news of Paul'.Did Paul add more information ? Absolutely...just as Christ had built upon Johns work. That doesnt make it two different gospels.It is ONE gospel that took a few years to completely unfold.I was discussing this dispensationalism nonsense with that same mentor and he got a kick out of it.He said Paul would be apPAULed to hear some of the ways his teachings are twisted.
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But then, Peter said this was happening, even way back then....so what should we expect for today ?
 

RichardBurger

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This statement by FoC shows that what I said is corect. I said people will try to ignore that Paul said that "his gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him" and here you have FoC making this statement:"There was no hidden gospel that was anything different than the 'good news' of Jesus Christ. There were simply two entirely different audiences involved...Jesus had to come to His own firstly and be rejected."FoC has just reputiated Paul's statement by saying there was no hidden gospel. That means that Paul's gospel was the same as the gospel through the ages. That makes Paul's statement a lie.To the Jews the good news was that their Messiah had come and the promised kingdom can be established. But the Jews rejected Him and His kingdom. To the Gentiles the good news is that Jesus' death on the cross pays for our sins. That is a great difference since we are not promnised a kingdom on this earth.Mnay believe, and Reformed theology teaches, that there was never any other gospel that the one we have today. Therefore there was no hidden gospel.Richard
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