The New Man

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Netchaplain

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In seeking light from the Lord on this important subject of the “new man,” we must first be absolutely clear of the thought which is so general in Christendom, that God’s Son became a Man in order to repair and rehabilitate the first man—the race of Adam.

The Lord Jesus Christ risen is absolutely unique, a Man of His own order, and in His death unto sin the first man was completely set aside in judgment, and the new man is therefor according to God. Consequently we must not be deceived by thinking that the human mind (must be the mind of Christ—NC) can form a correct conception of any trait of the new man, or that it can imitate the Lord Jesus Christ, though many read the Gospels with this object.

Now our inquiry is: What is the new man? First of all it cannot be learned by any effort of the human mind, as its structure and nature are entirely beyond the conception of man. How then do we learn it? It is not by reading or mere study of the Scriptures that we learn it, important as that is. Basically, it is by association with the Lord Jesus Christ, by beholding His glory, and thereby being “changed into His image.”

You cannot explain what you get, but you receive that which corresponds to Him; as you are with Him you acquire it. “That you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (Eph 4:14) is addressed to the believer who is in conscious union with the Lord Jesus, seated in the heavenlies in Him (Eph 2:6).

Now he comes out here in a new way, beginning with the mind: “renewed in the spirit of your mind”—not making works prominent, but in the renewed mind which is able to judge of the works that suit the Lord Jesus. “We have the mind of Christ.” The believer realizes the tastes of the new man by association with the Lord Jesus.

It is important to see that we derive from Him, we are in Him, and He lives in us (via the Spirit of course—NC). He is altogether of His own order, and it is only by association with Him that His nature and mind become experientially known to us. It is so little known because personal fellowship is so little known.

No one can tell what he acquires by association; but he knows that he has acquired a taste for the company of the Lord Jesus, and that when not in His company he has not that which suits his taste; he finds it very partially here among His own, and he is glad to return to His presence, and he knows the benefit of it.

This draws the great line of difference between mere students of the Word and those who enjoy His presence, beholding His glory; the latter can form a conception of what suits Him which the former cannot. We see from Colossians 3:10, “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him”—that we cannot be with Him without becoming enlightened; the Word comes with more definiteness to our souls; we are “renewed in knowledge,” etc. Thus we see that as we become more like Him by being with Him, we also become more intelligent in His mind; we know Him as life and put on “tender mercies, kindness and humbleness of mind.”

May our hearts have the rich enjoyment of being in spirit with the Lord Jesus in glory. Everyone likes to think of Him as known in His great works, but how blessed the consummation of being partakers with Him in His glory (Jhn 17:22)!

- J B Stoney
 
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Dave L

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The way I understand the "New Man" is this. We are body, soul, and spirit. When Adam sinned he died, spiritually cut off from the life of God. And we come into the world in this way. Dead on the vine so to speak. Our spirit is enslaved to our soul which is enslaved to our fleshly appetites. Our spirit takes on the identity of the soul in a way that seems we are only body and soul.

In the New Birth, God raises our spirit from the dead giving us life before unknown. And our spirit regains its identity apart from the soul, so that we can now experience a distinction between body, soul, and spirit. This new birth also includes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. And through it we hear God's word at a spiritual level. We discern and believe in Christ, and seek to live a holy life. We experience the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through repentance and living holy lives.
 
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Netchaplain

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The way I understand the "New Man" is this. We are body, soul, and spirit. When Adam sinned he died, spiritually cut off from the life of God. And we come into the world in this way. Dead on the vine so to speak. Our spirit is enslaved to our soul which is enslaved to our fleshly appetites. Our spirit takes on the identity of the soul in a way that seems we are only body and soul.

In the New Birth, God raises our spirit from the dead giving us life before unknown. And our spirit regains its identity apart from the soul, so that we can now experience a distinction between body, soul, and spirit. This new birth also includes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. And through it we hear God's word at a spiritual level. We discern and believe in Christ, and seek to live a holy life. We experience the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through repentance and living holy lives.
Hi and appreciate your input! Yes, I can see how being spiritually dead can seem we are spiritless, and upon rebirth we become aware of it.

Blessings!
 
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marks

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Good stuff!

I see it in this way . . .

Adam sinned, and humanity died. Dead humanity perpetuates itself throughout the centuries. Because humanity is sinful and dead, humanity is judged and condemned, and will be destroyed.

But God, with His great love wherewith He loved us . . .

God gave birth to a new me. Not a repair of the old me. The old me will not survive this world. The new me is entirely new, and resident in the heavenlies where Jesus is.

But I have command of the old me's body, which is my instrument to do works of righteousness in this world. When I'm done with that, then I'll be done with the old man.

There is a mind of the flesh, and a mind of the Spirit, or mind of Christ. The mind of the flesh is produced by the body, the flesh. Everyone has a mind. Our cats have minds. It's some thing that we have.

But being born again, being a new creation, I have a new mind.

So now there is the mind of the flesh, who I used to be, and the mind of Christ, who I am now.

And as part of dead humanity, the old me is condemned, but the new me is alive forever being united to God.

For the unredeemed, there is no redemption of the body either, but for the new creations, the body will be redeemed as well, being transformed by being clothed upon with the heavenly.

The new man is that new creation, who adds faith from the Word, then adding virture, knowledge, temperance, and all, and in so doing, reflects God's glory, and is transformed into that glory.

Much love!
mark
 
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Netchaplain

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There is a mind of the flesh, and a mind of the Spirit, or mind of Christ. The mind of the flesh is produced by the body, the flesh.
Always appreciate your replies Mark, and this one's not bad at all! Just to share though about the word "flesh," in the NT it nearly always refers to the nature of man's soul and not the physical body. How goes the nature goes the soul, and as is the soul so is the man.

Though the flesh is in us, we are not in it (Rom 8:9). Its presence is seen within, as the Spirit opposes it, so that we will not continue "willfully" (Heb 10:26) serving the flesh (old man; sin nature) - Gal 5:17; Eph 3:16.

Much love to you too Brother!
 

marks

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Always appreciate your replies Mark, and this one's not bad at all! Just to share though about the word "flesh," in the NT it nearly always refers to the nature of man's soul and not the physical body. How goes the nature goes the soul, and as is the soul so is the man.

Though the flesh is in us, we are not in it (Rom 8:9). Its presence is seen within, as the Spirit opposes it, so that we will not continue "willfully" (Heb 10:26) serving the flesh (old man; sin nature) - Gal 5:17; Eph 3:16.

Much love to you too Brother!

Hi NC, and thank you!

What you've described is how I used to think of this, now I think more like this:

Romans 7:18-18
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Sin lives in me. Well, not in me, actually, but in my flesh. In my flesh there's nothing good.

When I say, "sin lives in my flesh", what does that mean? I see three parts here, me, sin, and my flesh. So I come up with "a new creation", "a sin nature", and "a body from the original corrupted creation".

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Like in this verse. The corruption of sin - the sin nature - wants to rule over the body to use it's members as instruments of sin unto death. This is man's natural state before regeneration.

In my body of flesh lives a nature of corruption.

I had something happen to me once. I had my first real full scale panic attack. I ended up at the emergency room when my BP went to 193/105. I was OK, but I had a "chest stress injury". I didn't know what that was at the time. But what I knew was that I still felt afraid. But what had actually happened was that the soft tissue in my chest and other areas had been injured by the muscle stress, and by the chemical changes that occur with fear.

I wasn't still afraid. But I had the physical feeling of fear. And it hurt. A lot. And what I quickly worked out was that any time I felt fear, it aggravated the injury, re-injuring, and if I was to get better, I had to master my fear. The least twinge of apprehension brought fresh pain to my chest. I was raised with fear. I never knew another way.

But now I had to learn.

As always, God carried me through, and trained me, and encouraged me, and comforted me. And taught me . . . fear is a product of the body, and of the mind that was born with the body. The mind interprets things, and the body reacts. But since these - the mind, the body - are corrupted by the sin nature, these reactions are wrong, and are sin.

Now we have a new mind, which sees things in a new way, in God's way. The LORD is my light and my salvation, why should I be afraid? The LORD is my Helper, what can man do to me? In this way is no fear.

The sin nature perverts the mind of the flesh and the body of flesh to sin. We are to subjugate our body of flesh, presenting our members - body parts - as instruments of righteousness, instead of intruments of sin.

Romans 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

I'd have to say this "sarka" isn't referring to the sin nature, more like the human ancestry.

2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"

I'm thinking not this one since it's specifically "outward", rather than an inward nature.

8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

This is an interesting one to me in that it pairs "sinful" with "flesh", and then refers to sin in the flesh, not sin is the flesh, which leads me to think again along the lines of the flesh as the body.

9:3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

I'm thinking Paul shows a fair amount of usage in this fashion.

Anyway, Just to give a better look at where I'm coming from.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

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To add to the above . . . on a practical level, I find life to be much more manageable this way. I think it's something along the lines of "demystification". Rather than some unseen presence in me (sin) as some force pushing me around, it's instead that my body wants this, or that, wants to avoid this, or that, all because it is corrupt. So I can avoid hatred and fear and greed and lust just the same as avoiding an extra strawberry tart.
 

Netchaplain

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Hi NC, and thank you!

What you've described is how I used to think of this, now I think more like this:

Romans 7:18-18
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Sin lives in me. Well, not in me, actually, but in my flesh. In my flesh there's nothing good.

When I say, "sin lives in my flesh", what does that mean? I see three parts here, me, sin, and my flesh. So I come up with "a new creation", "a sin nature", and "a body from the original corrupted creation".
Thanks for sharing what the Lord has taught you and from which He has brought you! Though our understanding concerning the two usages of the word "flesh" are different, I wouldn't mind sharing why I understand this subject the way I do, but I don't want to chance inferring with what you've found to work for you. My youngest son (31) has the same mental anxiety that you are describing (about 16 years now and seeing a few doctors and taking meds.) and he has pretty much shut out everyone and everything and no sign of getting better yet (I continue to put him in God's hands), so I understand what you've endured. There's a lot to address on this issue but I don't want to share anything that might be disruptive (unless you desire to continue, but fine if not on this subject).

Blessings Friend
 

marks

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Thanks for sharing what the Lord has taught you and from which He has brought you! Though our understanding concerning the two usages of the word "flesh" are different, I wouldn't mind sharing why I understand this subject the way I do, but I don't want to chance inferring with what you've found to work for you. My youngest son (31) has the same mental anxiety that you are describing (about 16 years now and seeing a few doctors and taking meds.) and he has pretty much shut out everyone and everything and no sign of getting better yet (I continue to put him in God's hands), so I understand what you've endured. There's a lot to address on this issue but I don't want to share anything that might be disruptive (unless you desire to continue, but fine if not on this subject).

Blessings Friend

Not disruptive at all! I'm interested in what you may have to add. And I 'm sorry to hear about your son, that can be so very difficult!

Much love!
 

Jay Ross

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hello

When Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he became a candidate for the second death at the time of the GWTRJ which is at the end of the age of the ages. However, because Adam did not die until he was 930 years old, many have tried to explain what happened to Adam by usually saying that a. Physical death entered into the world when he fell, or b. Adam died a spiritual death. Both of these assumptions are wrong.

Adam's relationship with God changed when he fell and his relationship needed to be restored with God to remain in relationship with God. Who set about restoring the relationship? God did. The evidence for this can be found in the story of Adam, even if it is brief and only as a thumb nail sketch of what happened.

Now references to the second death can be found from Genesis to Revelation in the Bible, but the "technical" way of translating the source words into English obscures finding any mention of the second death is the Bible except where it is mentioned in the Book of Revelations and the original text insists that Lake of fire is associated with the second death.

In the Book of Ezekiel the prophet wrote that a sinner will die the second death, but if he repents of his sin then he will live and not die the second death. It also goes on to say that if a righteous man sins then all of his righteousness will be wiped from his record and that he will die the second death. He can redeem himself by repenting of his sin(s) and regain life once more.

Now the sins that a righteous man makes against the Spirit cannot be forgiven. (Matt 12:31-32)

Now we are to renew our minds and to put on the "renewed" nature that God intended us to be since the beginning of time. Eph (4:17-24 ) Now in verse 24 it does not speak of a "neos", i.e. brand new with respect to age, nature, but rather it speaks of a "kainos", i.e. refreshed/refurbished, nature.

Now insisting that we all must become "neos" people we invalidate ourselves. Even newly made wineskins, if they have aged and become hard, they must be refurbished like new again by the rubbing in of oil and wax etc. i.e. be refurbished like new again, for them to be used to store wine in just like an old wine skin that has previously been used and has aged.

Now if I tell you I have brought a new car, it does not mean that the car is brand new, but that the car is the last car that I have brought, i.e. it is the "youngest" car that I own with respect to ownership of that car.

We have a responsibility to renew our minds and to maintain the renewed mindset by meditating on God's word in our hearts and also with the putting on of the new nature of God so that we, as an individual, become hidden within the very nature of Christ/God Unless we are prepared to put on the renewed nature that God intended us to become from the beginning of time, then we need to ask ourselves which camp we really want to be in.

Shalom
 

Netchaplain

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Not disruptive at all! I'm interested in what you may have to add. And I 'm sorry to hear about your son, that can be so very difficult!

Much love!
Thanks, and ya, the hardest so far. It does show me though how easily I would gladly take it from him, but it's a greater testing for your child to have to than yourself, similar to the Father sending Jesus instead of Himself, which made it the greatest sacrifice. I'll get back ASAP on my replies to you on the prior issues we are discussing.

All Love
 

Netchaplain

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When Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he became a candidate for the second death at the time of the GWTRJ which is at the end of the age of the ages. However, because Adam did not die until he was 930 years old, many have tried to explain what happened to Adam by usually saying that a. Physical death entered into the world when he fell, or b. Adam died a spiritual death. Both of these assumptions are wrong.
Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! There is a lot here that is quite different from my understanding, so I will be using Scripture in sharing what I understand concerning your reply. First, I believe "thou shalt surly die" meant he would start dying, and this is related to physical death according to Gen 3:22-24, which was after what I believe to be a show of God's forgiveness in verse 21.

I think we should progress a piece at a time to keep tract of replying to as much as I can.

Blessings!
 

Netchaplain

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Hi NC, and thank you!

What you've described is how I used to think of this, now I think more like this:

Romans 7:18-18
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


Sin lives in me. Well, not in me, actually, but in my flesh. In my flesh there's nothing good.
"Flesh" has primarily two meanings: the physical body; the nature of the spirit.
Strong's G4561 - sarx

Definitions I-III: the physical body, etc.
Definition IV: denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

The phrase "that is, in my flesh" intends "in my sin nature." Rendering "flesh" here as def. I-III would conflict with Scripture which teaches that the body is holy because of 1Cor 3:17 and 6:19. I think it should also be pointed out that the body itself is just a thing, an object that has no spirit or soul, but rather the body merely houses them, like a pen houses internal parts and ink. Thus the onus of responsibility concerning condemnation isn't on the body but the soul of the spirit. For the spirit via the soul (decision making) makes good or evil use of the body, which is just in subjection to the spirit and soul.

I'll stop here for now until I hear from you.

All Love!
 

marks

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"Flesh" has primarily two meanings: the physical body; the nature of the spirit.
Strong's G4561 - sarx

Definitions I-III: the physical body, etc.
Definition IV: denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

The phrase "that is, in my flesh" intends "in my sin nature." Rendering "flesh" here as def. I-III would conflict with Scripture which teaches that the body is holy because of 1Cor 3:17 and 6:19. I think it should also be pointed out that the body itself is just a thing, an object that has no spirit or soul, but rather the body merely houses them, like a pen houses internal parts and ink. Thus the onus of responsibility concerning condemnation isn't on the body but the soul of the spirit. For the spirit via the soul (decision making) makes good or evil use of the body, which is just in subjection to the spirit and soul.

I'll stop here for now until I hear from you.

All Love!

Hi NC,

We're on the same page that the flesh is just a thing, and it's the sin nature that perverts it.

1 Corinthians 3 has a very interesting thing about it, which, when I discovered it, realized that it wasn't talking about cigarette smokers destroying their bodies.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Singular Plural

Given that God is teaching us here about divisions among believers, and to take care how we build, when He says that all of us plural are His singular temple, and that if anyone defiles God's singular temple, that singular person God will destroy, for His singlular temple is holy, which we plural are.

So I read this as that God is building us together, like living stones, into a living temple. So that this is a statement not about the sanctity of our flesh/bodies, rather, the sanctity of the body of Christ.

Where I think the real problem comes in is that the body has appetites and attractions and aversions, and the mind of the flesh is has it's desires, and the lot of it is corrupted. We have a new mind of Christ, and the body of flesh will one day be clothed in incorruptability.

Consider, Paul wrote:

Romans 7:24-25
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we let "flesh" be "sin nature", we have this:

As it were . . . With my mind I myself serve the law of God, but with my sin nature, the law of sin.

If I let flesh be the body, same as used in other passages, it seems to have a much more straightforward reading to me.

Amd Paul references the "body of this death", soma, like in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "I beat my body to keep it under . . ." Are you sure it's so neutral?

Much love!
Mark
 

Jay Ross

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Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! There is a lot here that is quite different from my understanding, so I will be using Scripture in sharing what I understand concerning your reply. First, I believe "thou shalt surly die" meant he would start dying, and this is related to physical death according to Gen 3:22-24, which was after what I believe to be a show of God's forgiveness in verse 21.

I think we should progress a piece at a time to keep tract of replying to as much as I can.

Blessings!

That is the way Gen 2:17 is translated in out translations but the Hebrew tells us something else: - mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ, both from the same Hebrew Root, H:4191 where the meaning of the root word is "to die". I would suggest to you that the meaning of "tā·mūṯ" is "the second death."

Putting that together we have "to die the second death" and to make the context within the English translation correct it should be translated as "you will die the second death."

The scholars translating this verse used the lens of a short time frame in coming to the translation outcome that they wrote down. However, the verse is silent as to the time frame that "mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ" should be translated with respect to. If we consider other verse where the second death is referenced, i.e. Revelation 20:14, which suggests that the judgement involved with respect to the second death outcome does not occur until the time of the GWTRJ at the end of the Age of the Ages when all of mankind will be judged, except for those who will have lost their heads and are raised at the beginning of the last age of the age. With that being said, Genesis 2:17 should be translated within the lens of a very long time frame and not with the short timeframe lens that the present translation of this verse suggests.

Now with respect to Adam and Eve, their acknowledgement of God within the context of after they we expelled from the Garden of Eden can be gleaned from the following verses: -

Genesis 4:1-2: - 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, "I have acquired a man from the Lord." 2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 4:25-26: - 25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, "For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed." 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh. Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.​

Did God making clothing for Adam and Eve before they left the Garden of Eden signify that God had forgiven them for their disobedience by the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Sadly we are not able to answer this question from the brief evidence presented in Genesis.

Because the early scribes of the Bible did not necessarily understand what was meant in Genesis 2:17 we find a confusion in the usage of "tā·mūṯ" else where in the Old Testament.

I am not suggesting that the present translations that we ha
 

Netchaplain

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We're on the same page that the flesh is just a thing, and it's the sin nature that perverts it.
Hey, Mark! Yes, since the body only manifests sin but not produces it, the guilt and condemnation is incurred from the decisions of the soul, which concludes its choices according to its nature, e.g. the evil derives from the old nature and the good is from the new nature. The body has no input concerning guilt from sin, it merely outwardly expresses the presence of the inward choices of the soul (where guilt is incurred). It's not possible, but as an example, even if we no longer sinned we would still be guilty and condemned due to the presence of the sin nature.

1 Corinthians 3 has a very interesting thing about it, which, when I discovered it, realized that it wasn't talking about cigarette smokers destroying their bodies.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Given that God is teaching us here about divisions among believers, etc.
"If any man defile the temple of God," etc. It's my understanding that "any man" applies to unbelievers (those not reborn, because He never "destroys" believers), e.g. whosoever that is not the temple of God causes one who is the temple of God to become defiled. At that time many were at the babes-in-Christ level, not having yet learned enough concerning deceptive doctrines and thus were vulnerable to temporal defilement.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we let "flesh" be "sin nature", we have this:
As it were . . . With my mind I myself serve the law of God, but with my sin nature, the law of sin.
I think you picked a good example here. "My mind" is Paul from his new nature, and "myself" is him from the new nature, because the believer is no longer in the old nature, or "in the flesh" (Rom 8:9), but "in the Spirit," and it's impossible to be in both the old nature and the new nature. They both are in us but we are only in one of them, the new nature (new man). So, it's correct that we sin with the old nature, or "with the flesh, the law of sin" (we sin with the sin nature; old man).

And Paul references the "body of this death", soma, like in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "I beat my body to keep it under . . ." Are you sure it's so neutral?
I think this passage is a bit more obscure due to the use of the word "body" being figurative for "body of sin" (Rom 6:6), and its "members" (Col 3:5). Though "Soma" is primarily Greek for the physical body the Bible commentators interpret it in a symbolic sense here.

Give 1Cor 9:27 a test-view with the two I use nearly all the time over others, due to their antiquity and let me know what you think (circa 17th century): 1 Corinthians 9 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

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1 Corinthians 9 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

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marks

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Hey, Mark! Yes, since the body only manifests sin but not produces it, the guilt and condemnation is incurred from the decisions of the soul, which concludes its choices according to its nature, e.g. the evil derives from the old nature and the good is from the new nature. The body has no input concerning guilt from sin, it merely outwardly expresses the presence of the inward choices of the soul (where guilt is incurred). It's not possible, but as an example, even if we no longer sinned we would still be guilty and condemned due to the presence of the sin nature.


"If any man defile the temple of God," etc. It's my understanding that "any man" applies to unbelievers (those not reborn, because He never "destroys" believers), e.g. whosoever that is not the temple of God causes one who is the temple of God to become defiled. At that time many were at the babes-in-Christ level, not having yet learned enough concerning deceptive doctrines and thus were vulnerable to temporal defilement.


I think you picked a good example here. "My mind" is Paul from his new nature, and "myself" is him from the new nature, because the believer is no longer in the old nature, or "in the flesh" (Rom 8:9), but "in the Spirit," and it's impossible to be in both the old nature and the new nature. They both are in us but we are only in one of them, the new nature (new man). So, it's correct that we sin with the old nature, or "with the flesh, the law of sin" (we sin with the sin nature; old man).


I think this passage is a bit more obscure due to the use of the word "body" being figurative for "body of sin" (Rom 6:6), and its "members" (Col 3:5). Though "Soma" is primarily Greek for the physical body the Bible commentators interpret it in a symbolic sense here.

Give 1Cor 9:27 a test-view with the two I use nearly all the time over others, due to their antiquity and let me know what you think (circa 17th century): 1 Corinthians 9 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

This site is slow recently but highly useful and worth the 15 secs. or so wait:
1 Corinthians 9 Commentary - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Hid With Him

Hi NC,

Thank you for your reply!

We're both so very close in position, I think, just a matter of where the border between the body and the sin nature lies.

One thing you'll find with me is that there a quite a number of places where commentators and others take words as metaphors or allegory, but I don't see the need, and in fact find it makes better sense to me if I just stay with the straightforward meaning. Robertson and Vincent are my first go-to's when I want to look something up.

Another passage I think of regarding this is 1 Corinthians 15, and that "flesh and blood cannot inherit". God tells us what's wrong with flesh and blood. It's mortal. It's corruptible. It has to be transformed first into immortal, and uncorruptable.

These is another that comes to mind, something about exchanging this "vile body" for one like His glorious body, Phillipians, I think?

But whether you understand the sin nature to be a thing in it's own right, existent irrespective of the body, just using it, or, as I do, the sin nature being the corruption of the body, either way, we know what God did, and what we are to do, and what He's going to do!

It all comes down to either living the man I used to be, unregenerate, or putting that man off, and living the new man, Christ in me, the certain expectation of Glory!

Much love!
mark
 
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marks

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Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! There is a lot here that is quite different from my understanding, so I will be using Scripture in sharing what I understand concerning your reply. First, I believe "thou shalt surly die" meant he would start dying, and this is related to physical death according to Gen 3:22-24, which was after what I believe to be a show of God's forgiveness in verse 21.

I think we should progress a piece at a time to keep tract of replying to as much as I can.

Blessings!

Just to toss my hat in here . . .

This is an example of one of those places where some see it as not quite as plain as it might sound, but I think it means exactly what it says.

God told Adam on the day he ate from That Tree he would surely die. Adam ate, I believe Adam died on that day.

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only True God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

Life is knowing God. Man chose to know evil. Man died. Yes, physical death would follow. But just the same he died.

This is to my understanding when "dead in trespasses" happened, then all of us just the same, being born sinners, sinned, and because we sin, we die. Physically. While having actually been born dead, born into a race of dead humanity.

But now we live unto God as those who are alive from among the dead ones.

Much love!
Mark
 

Netchaplain

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That is the way Gen 2:17 is translated in out translations but the Hebrew tells us something else: - mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ, both from the same Hebrew Root, H:4191 where the meaning of the root word is "to die". I would suggest to you that the meaning of "tā·mūṯ" is "the second death."

Putting that together we have "to die the second death" and to make the context within the English translation correct it should be translated as "you will die the second death."
Concerning Scripture's use of this phrase, I believe it applies to the "lake of fire" when the word "second" is used in conjunction with "death." The result of physical death of the body is all I think is intended in "ye shall surly die," though others may apply it also to the eternal death or second death, which applies to those entering the Lake of Fire; also which believers in God prior to Christ's work will avoid.

Did God making clothing for Adam and Eve before they left the Garden of Eden signify that God had forgiven them for their disobedience by the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Sadly we are not able to answer this question from the brief evidence presented in Genesis.
Myself, I see evidences of God's forgiveness, like in His blessing of Adam and Eve (Gen 5:2), man "calling on the name of the Lord (Gen 5:20) etc.

Blessings Friend!
 

Jay Ross

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Concerning Scripture's use of this phrase, I believe it applies to the "lake of fire" when the word "second" is used in conjunction with "death." The result of physical death of the body is all I think is intended in "ye shall surly die," though others may apply it also to the eternal death or second death, which applies to those entering the Lake of Fire; also which believers in God prior to Christ's work will avoid.

You are welcome to believe what you want, but for me, Genesis 2:17 is speaking only of the second death. Physical death was always a reality for mankind. Adam did not introduce physical death to mankind, but he did cause the second death to be a factor in the lives of every individual in that when Adam become unrighteous, all of mankind became unrighteous unless he was prepared to repent of his individual sin(s) to God.

Shalom