I am done

Mjh29 said:

In all seriousness, I will most certainly pray that God changes the heart and mind of the OP. That much zeal could be a powerful tool of God's.

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I think that's a great idea.

Soverign Grace said:

I think that's a great idea.

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It is rare you find even among Christians someone with such passion! I will indeed pray for him.

mjrhealth said:

Who said anyone loved sin.?? Clutching at straws.

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I see the irony in that Brakelite.

Soverign Grace said:

Brakelite first told me about the Papacy.

Brakelite introduced me to the Papacy being the antichrist and it made sense when I read the verse from Revelations 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

That verse you gave makes sense, and the interpretation. God just recently opened that up to me. Since you have been shown it, do you feel any obligation to do something about it - even relating it to others?

I know they're planning something to gain total control, and I thought it would be a nuclear war. Do you have any guesses to what it will be? I wondered if we should try to build some kind of small bomb shelter. I watched a documentary on a number of people across the country who already did this. I even got an update from Realtor.com that a lot of people are buying pieces of ground in remote areas to live.

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Praise God, another of God's people who have chosen to "come out of Babylon"! The eschatological interpretation you've been shown by Brakelite is known as "Protestant Historicism" which the Protestant Reformers discovered in the early 16th century from Scripture and by it the light of truth began to dispel the thousand years of papal darkness. Historicism's two foundation pillars are "salvation by grace through faith" and "the papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy". In response, the papacy attempted to cover up their unmasking as the Antichrist by commissioning the Jesuits with manufacturing the unBiblical interpretations of Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism and Jesuit Preterism, which Protestants now have adopted as "truth" because they are too ignorant or too unwilling to understand the events of the past, why the Reformers believed what they did, and with what solid Biblical reasons they gave for doing so.

There's no need to resort to such extremes. Sure, we should be striving to get off the grid as much as possible - even the secular minded rich movie stars have looked to New Zealand as a refuge from what they think is a soon approaching cataclysm, and they have so overrun that nation that there is now a law which forbids the sale of any more property to American citizens. But, never forget the promises of God to His people in Psalms 94.

The Three Angels Messages of Revelation - the last warning message to the world just before Jesus comes - is going to all the world now. God is removing the barriers in preparation for the final climax of Earth's history. Just a couple of years ago, God opened the locked doors of China and allowed the first public evangelistic/prophecy seminar in decades and decades, and the ministry which conducted those meetings was Amazing Facts, one of our ministries.

Jesuit Futurism seems logical on the surface but it does not stand the test of Biblical scrutiny. Alas, there are those like Enoch111 who refuse change their minds about this issue. He even went so far as to agree with me that the papacy is one giant ball of dogmatic confusion and lies, but insists that their ideas about Jesuit Futurism are spot on accurate, EVEN THOUGH these same Jesuits are responsible for giving the world Preterism. Can you believe that? Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? If you have any questions, please ask.

Soverign Grace said:

What I saw was a confused individual. What I then saw from you and others was "foolish talk and coarse jesting" which we are warned not to engage in. I met people who treated the Word loosely in every church I was in. I know all the games, all the lies people tell themselves and try to tell others. I've seen the people who were turned off by "Christians" and church because of this type of sin. There's nothing new under the sun. Galatians doesn't say that YOU are the one to kick the man to hell.

You called the man a nut job and think that's okay on a Christian site? How is that acting like Christ? That's what Sanctification is - becoming more like Christ. You're rejecting the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Continue on in your sin, but when something happens to you because of your cruelty to another then you remember why it happened. You reap what you sow. You quoted Galatians but why don't you quote the rest of it:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith." Gal. 5:22

Why do you think meanness is somehow acceptable? Especially to someone who is in obvious pain. I hope you never need grace.

Christ didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery - so why do you condemn the OP?

"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." - John 8:11

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: - 1 Peter 2:23

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First off, I certainly believe that we should always endeavour to administer mercy, & grace so as to be as gentle as possible, and kind , as well as direct in our speech and truthful in confronting false teachings or another gospel, since it is a serious thing which can cause not only the person in question but others to loose their way & not know the ONE True Gospel of Jesus Christ, which saves them from eternal punishment. If we want to find parallels in the Bible to how Jesus dealt with "false teachings", then it seems to me, it would be more akin to how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees not to people committing "sins" -just sayin' . What I take from the Bible is that it is a VERY serious thing & ideally in a church it would be dealt with by the Overseer who is the Pastor & through the church Elders.
Secondly, I don't get how it seen to be ok to berrate those whom someone feels has not dealt with others on the issue of false teachings appropriately? Should not grace be extended as well? Seems like a double-standard to me. I do not want to get into an argument with you, just saying grace, mercy & restraint needs to be applied in this instance also. Shalom to you.

historyb said:

So OP you don't like it when others believe different than you, forums are not a good fit for you then if ou can't accept that fact.

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I don't think historyb is talking about the beliefs being different. It is the constant """PUT DOWN"" that many post on the forums. Truth will never win out against the religious. They take to much pride in themselves to let somebody post what they believe if it isn't what they believe. I think it is an attitude problem.

This is clearly shown in the scriptures where the religious always persecuted the children of God.

Phoneman777 said:

Praise God, another of God's people who have chosen to "come out of Babylon"! The eschatological interpretation you've been shown by Brakelite is known as "Protestant Historicism" which the Protestant Reformers discovered in the early 16th century from Scripture and by it the light of truth began to dispel the thousand years of papal darkness. Historicism's two foundation pillars are "salvation by grace through faith" and "the papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy". In response, the papacy attempted to cover up their unmasking as the Antichrist by commissioning the Jesuits with manufacturing the unBiblical interpretations of Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism and Jesuit Preterism, which Protestants now have adopted as "truth" because they are too ignorant or too unwilling to understand the events of the past, why the Reformers believed what they did, and with what solid Biblical reasons they gave for doing so.

There's no need to resort to such extremes. Sure, we should be striving to get off the grid as much as possible - even the secular minded rich movie stars have looked to New Zealand as a refuge from what they think is a soon approaching cataclysm, and they have so overrun that nation that there is now a law which forbids the sale of any more property to American citizens. But, never forget the promises of God to His people in Psalms 94.

The Three Angels Messages of Revelation - the last warning message to the world just before Jesus comes - is going to all the world now. God is removing the barriers in preparation for the final climax of Earth's history. Just a couple of years ago, God opened the locked doors of China and allowed the first public evangelistic/prophecy seminar in decades and decades, and the ministry which conducted those meetings was Amazing Facts, one of our ministries.

Jesuit Futurism seems logical on the surface but it does not stand the test of Biblical scrutiny. Alas, there are those like Enoch111 who refuse change their minds about this issue. He even went so far as to agree with me that the papacy is one giant ball of dogmatic confusion and lies, but insists that their ideas about Jesuit Futurism are spot on accurate, EVEN THOUGH these same Jesuits are responsible for giving the world Preterism. Can you believe that? Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? If you have any questions, please ask.

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I'm grateful to have met people on here who are helping me to understand what I've been seeing. I'm playing catch-up after being backslidden so I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. I appreciated Brakelite informing me about the RCC and Walter Veith's videos. I'm trying to get my husband to watch them because he's in the dark and dismisses me when I try to tell him about it. Sigh. I also tried bringing it up in our bible study. The one pastor warned me I'd better watch what I read online. I'm usually pretty independent minded but he had me doubting my own self and I found myself backtracking and telling him I'll employ more discernment from now on. It felt terrible because I already do exercise discernment, but I thought maybe I was being misled. I went home and re-read a few things and then I knew that the problem wasn't me being misled, it was the pastor being in the dark about it. I brought it up to another pastor at bible study and he just looked at me and said nothing! I brought it up to our pastor and he ignored me. So I haven't had the best reception when trying to share it. You don't know what a relief it is to be able to talk to others who see it. I was thinking of bringing in more material to bible study but I don't like feeling like I'm being judged as a conspiracy theorist. On the other hand I feel I have a duty to share it. So I'm trying to figure out what God wants me to do with what I learned. Do you wonder what God wants you to do with it?

I've heard of Preterism - a sister believed in it, as did my mother. I never studied it or knew much about it, only that they believed that Christ wasn't coming back.

I read that about the techs in CA buying up land in New Zealand. Are you serious that no more Americans can buy land there? That's discouraging. I thought about it. NZ is controlled by the illuminati however, I read. I was actually thinking of relocating but there is no place that I know of to escape to where their tentacles don't reach. I still believe America is going to continue to get worse and worse. I spoke with a German who fled Germany because of what he saw with the mass migration. He began a community in Panama. I was actually thinking of getting my family to move there. I'm still researching it.

Are you a Seventh-Day-Adventist too? You are part of Amazing Discoveries?

I'm a canary in the coal mine and I read the news last night and it was so upsetting I couldn't sleep. I identify with Habakuk and I really cried out to God last night for several hours. It wouldn't be as bad if I didn't have a family that I worried about but I'm afraid of what is ahead for us. I try to trust God but I've always struggled with discerning what our duties were as opposed to what we're to leave to God. I'm proactive and I always try to gauge what I'm supposed to do about a matter. For instance, I'm wondering if we should build a nuclear shelter. We don't have money to throw around but I thought it might be crucial because of how unstable everything is. Did you and your family build a shelter, or did you prepare in any way? I also thought about running for office myself because I could do a better job than 99% of who is in office now. Have you ever thought about running for office? I'm just really afraid of what's ahead for believers in this coming darkness.

tzcho2 said:

First off, I certainly believe that we should always endeavour to administer mercy, & grace so as to be as gentle as possible, and kind , as well as direct in our speech and truthful in confronting false teachings or another gospel, since it is a serious thing which can cause not only the person in question but others to loose their way & not know the ONE True Gospel of Jesus Christ, which saves them from eternal punishment. If we want to find parallels in the Bible to how Jesus dealt with "false teachings", then it seems to me, it would be more akin to how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees not to people committing "sins" -just sayin' . What I take from the Bible is that it is a VERY serious thing & ideally in a church it would be dealt with by the Overseer who is the Pastor & through the church Elders.
Secondly, I don't get how it seen to be ok to berrate those whom someone feels has not dealt with others on the issue of false teachings appropriately? Should not grace be extended as well? Seems like a double-standard to me. I do not want to get into an argument with you, just saying grace, mercy & restraint needs to be applied in this instance also. Shalom to you.

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You're right - false teaching is dangerous and so is berating another. Since we don't know for sure whether the OP is deliberately spreading false doctrine or is a confused believer being buffeted by Satan, we should be very very careful. We don't know whether the OP is being tormented by Satan but it looks as if it might have the earmarks. If he is mocked and berated then there is the possibility that he could commit suicide. Satan is the author of confusion and the OP seemed as if he was confused. We have to be alert to the workings of the evil one who comes to steal, kill, and destroy:

1 Corinthians 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

2 Corinthians 2:11 “in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.”

Mocking and berating another is evil; call it what it is. We must not sugar-coat sin. We see people excuse sin all the time: "It was just a little mistake." "It was just a little misunderstanding." We're warned about the 'works of the flesh.' Even if the OP was off theologically we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. When he was reviled, he didn't revile. It's a bad witness to others when Christians behave this way. I saw Christians engage in this vile behavior in churches and they turned others away from Christ and the church. This is a serious sin - it is destructive and causes much damage. It's one of the more "acceptable" sins that some Christians think is okay to engage in - especially if the object of their scorn happens to offend several people. The mocker draws strength from other mockers and he justifies his mocking: "he brought it on himself!" "He offended us!" They encourage one another in their sin.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Romans 8:8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is become guilty of all.

Romans 2:1-29
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

How many young people have been mocked who then committed suicide? I knew someone who Satan tormented who ended his own life. It destroyed those who loved him. His mother used to take a blanket to the cemetery and sleep on his grave. Mocking of another should never be condoned and Christians should speak out against it. I went to college for psychology because I wanted to be a first responder. I studied independently how Satan attacks the mind. Sometimes we may not read a situation right; we may not know what is going on in another's life. We should never be careless in dealing with a fragile or vulnerable individual.

The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. - 2 For. 2:7

I think you have a point that there is a fine line sometimes in these circumstances. I just saw so much damage to Christ and the church by careless believers. I myself have been careless at times. We're heading into dark waters and I believe we should stay unified because society is becoming more anti-Christian. When I become overwhelmed by the news I turn to the community of other believers to be strengthened. We shouldn't be of the world where we "vote someone off the Island" like some of the repulsive shows out now. We can't be "biting and devouring one another" - instead I think we should be supporting and building up one another for the times ahead.

"The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be consumed by each other. So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." - Galatians 5:15

Phoneman777 said:

The works of Christ are not what you want them to be: a license to continue in sin.

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Who ever said it was, grace is a bit like a dad, who sees his "imperfect" children make mistakes, but doesnt take a big stick to them when they do. Is that what you expect of Him,

Grace was given to us imperfect people by a perfect God, but it seems to be insufficent for so many.

Phoneman777 said:

ANGELS DO HIS COMMANDMENTS.

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Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

now how is anyone in heaven going to steal from another whenone doesnt have any possessions, so pray tell how that commandment is going to work.

Soverign Grace said:

I never heard of the teaching about "Sunday Sacredness." I knew they used to have blue laws that kept stores from operating on Sunday. Where do you see that in Scripture?

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Scripture plainly identifies the Little Horn of Daniel, the Beast of Revelation 13, the King of the North, the Man of Sin, the Whore of Babylon, as the papacy. The Mark of the Beast recipients are presented in direct contrast with the saints who "keep the commandments of God" in Revelation 14. Psalms 94 is a prophecy of the last days when Satan "frameth mischief by a law", just as in the old times when Daniel, the 3 Hebrew Worthies, etc., were persecuted for refusing to go along with laws that were deliberately instituted in opposition to God's law. In Ezekiel, the leaders of God's people were described as committing the ultimate act of defiance to God by turning their backs to Him in the Sanctuary and worshiping the Sun. Sun worship is the central focal point of the false pagan gods including Molech, Baal, Dagon, etc.

But perhaps the most compelling evidence is that the papacy itself boasts that "Sunday is OUR Mark of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance (from 7th day to the 1st day) is proof of that fact."

Did you listen to some sermons that taught you about this? I'm still trudging my way through Revelations but I have never attended a bible study where it was taught.

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15 years ago I poured out my heart to God for Him to show me His truth, because the Baptist doctrines I'd learned in my youth portrayed a schizophrenic God to me, and the non-denomination church I attended later was just too inconsistent in their teachings. I'd heard of Historicism years earlier, but thought it was crazy because it was pretty much unheard of in the modern church. After asking God to show me His truth, I happened to turn on a radio station that I never listen to at that time of day and some guy was preaching what I later found out was an Historicist eschatological interpretation and I just kept listening for a few days. I then ordered the series and studied it intently. I became convicted of the Sabbath issue as prominent in end times prophecy, but it took me six months to embrace it because I knew it would cost me my job. While out of work, I grew to trust the Lord like never before, but I didn't learn that I still had "gods" before God until much later and it cost me dearly and grieves me to this day. I got my job back after two years and I'm still there to this day and I've been trying to find something wrong with Historicism ever since, but the more time goes by, the more it has proven itself an anvil that has worn out the many hammers of its critics.

You lost me on 'extremest religious fundamentalism' - how did you come to these conclusions - is there corresponding Scriptures?

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We know from Scripture that the issue surrounding the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast has to do with God's commandments. Revelation 14 starting at verse 6 and through verse 12. The principle in Romans 6:16 that whoever we yield ourselves to obey has been the crux of the issue of the great controversy between Christ and Satan since time immemorial: Satan wants our worship and God wants our worship, and to whom we yield ourselves to obey is our master.

The wicked have always blamed the righteous for God's judgments against them or His "unjust" dealings with them. Cain blamed Abel for God's displeasure. King Abimelech and Pharaoh blamed Abraham for their stupid choice to take Sarai. Lot's wife surely blamed God for judging Sodom and Gomorrah. Joseph's brothers blamed him for God's favor that rested upon him. Pharaoh blamed Moses and the Israelites for the plagues and his lost firstborn son. Ahab blamed Elijah the prophet for troubling Israel. Finally, Jesus was accused of being such a threat to the system by the religious leaders of His day that unless they got rid of him, the entire nation of Israel would be lost. The last days will be no different when the "end time Elijah" message of revival and reformation will be so effective in calling people out of Babylon, that these "tidings from out of the East and the North shall trouble him" (the King of the North), and he will go forth to "make away many". In 1999, the pope hosted an Interfaith Meeting where he told an assembly of SUN WORSHIPING Buddhist monks, Zoroasterian priests, Catholic cardinals, Hindu gurus, American Indian shamen, Jewish rabbis (actually they're Kabbalists) and ecumenical clergy that all must join in condemning the Christian fundamentalists who "abuse speech" and whose efforts at converting others "incite hate and violence". Pope Jorge's sentiments are exactly the same almost 20 years later.

I really like Walter Veith - Brakelite recommended some of his videos, and it gave me greater understanding, and how 9-11 was staged. I don't understand how God could let that happen however - it's too evil to comprehend. I will watch the video; - I appreciate you posting it. I have such a thirst for piecing together what I see happening and Revelations. I tend to be very proactive though, and wonder if we're to do something about it. When I learned some of it I was eager to share it and was shocked when a Pastor told me I'd better watch what I read online. It's such a relief to talk to others who see it. I have more to learn about it and have been reading a lot trying to understand. Have you watched Veith's video where he shows the Simpsons cartoon with the 911 towers? I'm unsure if the cartoonist knew 9-11 was planned, or if they had knowledge from the evil one when they drew that. Did you wonder that too?

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I've seen countless lectures by Veith and others who are piecing together the truth that the the papacy is the most evil organization to ever grace the topside of the Earth, but because papists don't walk around with signs hanging around them which say, "Hey Protestants, we killed you indiscriminately in the past for clinging to your "paper pope" (the Bible) and history will soon be repeated" they dismiss Historicist claims as "alarmist" or unfounded, while promoting Jesuit Futurism as "truth" like foolish liberals who go walking through Muslim countries to "prove" that Islam is not a threat, only to discover just before the knife hacks through their neck bones that what they thought was harmless was a clear and present danger all along. Keep studying and if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask any of us.

Soverign Grace said:

The one pastor warned me I'd better watch what I read online. I'm usually pretty independent minded but he had me doubting my own self and I found myself backtracking and telling him I'll employ more discernment from now on. It felt terrible because I already do exercise discernment, but I thought maybe I was being misled.

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Many pastors today do not concern themselves with end time prophecy because they've bought into the whole Jesuit Futurist deception that the Antichrist isn't coming until the last seven years of tribulation and that won't take place until the church disappears in the "secret rapture", the false idea that John Nelson Darby added to Jesuit Francisco Ribera's Futurism nonsense. Pastors simply don't see the need to talk about things they believe will have no effect on the church. So, when one brings up Historicism and its papal Antichrist, they get quite upset, much like turning on the light when someone is sound asleep.

I've heard of Preterism - a sister believed in it, as did my mother. I never studied it or knew much about it, only that they believed that Christ wasn't coming back.

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When Historicism was smashing the papacy over the head and thousands were fleeing the Whore of Babylon into the waiting arms of Jesus when the Protestant Reformation lifted Christ up for all to see and embrace, the papacy had to find some way to stop the bleeding. They commissioned the Jesuit Order to find an interpretation in Scripture that would refute those "Protestant innovators" and could be used to exonerate the papacy. It is a fact of history that Jesuit Luis Alcazar formulated an interpretation that came to be known as Jesuit Preterism which said the Antichrist already arose and Jesus already came back and all the prophecies of Scripture had been fulfilled in the past. Jesuit Francisco Ribera also came forth with an interpretation which said Antichrist is one man who is coming at the end of time during the last seven years of tribulation where a temple will e rebuilt in Israel and the evil man will sit down in that "temple of God' etc, etc, etc. I've asked people how the flip can a temple in which the sacrifices are an official middle finger in the face of God and His risen Savior be referred to as the "temple of God" - and that the "temple of God" in which the Antichrist will sit is a symbol Paul uses over and over for the church in which sits the pope who "sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God" by his many papal blasphemous claims to be "god on Earth" - and yet these silly Jesuit Futurists stubbornly hold fast to their doctrine.

I read that about the techs in CA buying up land in New Zealand. Are you serious that no more Americans can buy land there? That's discouraging. I thought about it. NZ is controlled by the illuminati however, I read. I was actually thinking of relocating but there is no place that I know of to escape to where their tentacles don't reach. I still believe America is going to continue to get worse and worse. I spoke with a German who fled Germany because of what he saw with the mass migration. He began a community in Panama. I was actually thinking of getting my family to move there. I'm still researching it. [/QUOTE] Pastor Doug Batchelor recently said in a sermon that NZ tried raising out of country land purchase prices to astronomical levels, but when these rich Americans continued to buy, they finally outlawed it altogether.

Are you a Seventh-Day-Adventist too? You are part of Amazing Discoveries?

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Yes, and I teach and preach from time to time, but I'm not affiliated with AD, though I've supported them financially. If you want your mind totally blown away, check out Vieth's testimony. It will absolutely astonish you. When the man talks about the involvement of Secret Societies and papal intrigue, he knows EXACTLY what he's talking about.

I'm a canary in the coal mine and I read the news last night and it was so upsetting I couldn't sleep. I identify with Habakuk and I really cried out to God last night for several hours.

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You have nothing to fear. You are immortal until God decides otherwise. Until then, just trust alone in His grace to save you and know that following Jesus in the midst of the shadows of death is infinitely safer than the path of a known way. You cannot save anyone, but the peace of Christ which radiates from your countenance, echos in your words, and surrounds you like the atmosphere of heaven will be that through which the Holy Spirit can work to convert your loved ones around you. He is able to save to the uttermost, is He not?

Phoneman777 said:

The Eucharist is as equally objectionable as any other false doctrine. Why do Episcopalians not just let go of that relic of papal Antichrist heresy which cannot be supported by any other method than twisting what Jesus spoke in symbolism in John 6 as literal?

We've even had our comic relief friend Dead Bread insist that the "first Eucharist" was officiated by Jesus when He was in Emmaus. Talk about first rate creative theology LOL

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What Christ taught was His Real Presence in the elements, the problem is evangelicals can't stand what Christ said and that is doubled down upon by the NT, instead of leaving like those who could not take what Christ stated in John 6 they make up lies that Christ was lying when He gave the last supper to Believers. The biggest problem is Sola Scriptura thinking they can say Scriptures says whatever they want them to say.

historyb said:

What Christ taught was His Real Presence in the elements, the problem is evangelicals can't stand what Christ said and that is doubled down upon by the NT, instead of leaving like those who could not take what Christ stated in John 6 they make up lies that Christ was lying when He gave the last supper to Believers. The biggest problem is Sola Scriptura thinking they can say Scriptures says whatever they want them to say.

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Which verse did Christ speak to support the idea that His "real presence" is in the emblems?

They are elements, please stop profaning Christ Real Presence.

Matthew 26:27-28, Mark 14:23-27, Luke 22:19-20 and none of these have symbolic language in them. St. Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are worthy to partake of the Blessed Eucharist so why do that if as you say it's all fake? Who cares then at drink and be merry for it's fake and no presence. However, if Christ is Present than you would get sick and die if you partook unworthily taking judgement unto yourself.

brakelite said:

People who don't hate sin now... Who don't love righteousness now... Wont do either in heaven.

Reading through the variety of posts I am amazed at the number of people who condemned the op for being judgemental. Does anyone else see the irony in that?

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I do. Read through the posts Brakelite.

mjrhealth said:

Who ever said it was, grace is a bit like a dad, who sees his "imperfect" children make mistakes, but doesnt take a big stick to them when they do. Is that what you expect of Him,

Grace was given to us imperfect people by a perfect God, but it seems to be insufficent for so many.

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Are you a father? Do you just stand by and let your kids disobey you without any discipline? Of course not. And what is the purpose of discipline? Is it not to intended to change the mind? To teach? To teach what? A right way of living right? The way of obedience? Now of course God doesn't use a big stick of course. He uses much love and the power of His Spirit to convince us of a better way. And as we seek and desire to live according to HIS ways, He then empowers us to do exactly that...to follow Him and walk as Jesus walked...in obedience. What God does NOT do is when we come to Him, leave us as we are. That is grace. The power of the gospel working in us to make us like Jesus...to conform us into the image of His Son, by the renewing of our minds that we might have the mind of Christ. Grace is not an overcoat that covers sin and hides it so that God can pretend it isn't there. Grace is the removal of sin and the infusion of Christ's life...His righteousness.
That new life of love, joy, peace, and obedience, is in full harmony with all God's commandments. It can not possibly be otherwise.
To deny this...to reject God's commandments as only "Jewish" and a burden for Christians, is to deny true grace and to deny the power of God. It is precisely what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of a "form of godliness but without power".

Well.....I have been on a fair share of forums.
Things will never change till Christ's return.
People all have different opinions.
That's the reason we have so many different denominations.
Yes, it's troublesome, I find that also.
But this has been one of the better Christian Forums on the internet.
Hey, if you can't get along and it bothers you, take a break. I did.
I slowed down on the discussions, but increased my posts on the photo forum and other forums where there is not much disagreement.
Yes, I still read a fair amount of the discussions.
Sometimes a learn a few things, other times I shake my head.
Bless you all this sunday! Love you all.

brakelite said:

Are you a father? Do you just stand by and let your kids disobey you without any discipline? Of course not. And what is the purpose of discipline? Is it not to intended to change the mind? To teach? To teach what? A right way of living right? The way of obedience? Now of course God doesn't use a big stick of course. He uses much love and the power of His Spirit to convince us of a better way. And as we seek and desire to live according to HIS ways, He then empowers us to do exactly that...to follow Him and walk as Jesus walked...in obedience. What God does NOT do is when we come to Him, leave us as we are. That is grace. The power of the gospel working in us to make us like Jesus...to conform us into the image of His Son, by the renewing of our minds that we might have the mind of Christ. Grace is not an overcoat that covers sin and hides it so that God can pretend it isn't there. Grace is the removal of sin and the infusion of Christ's life...His righteousness.
That new life of love, joy, peace, and obedience, is in full harmony with all God's commandments. It can not possibly be otherwise.
To deny this...to reject God's commandments as only "Jewish" and a burden for Christians, is to deny true grace and to deny the power of God. It is precisely what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of a "form of godliness but without power".

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Oh you really are a stickler for your religion arnt you. Do you really think God has a big stick and goes around beating up His children, is that what you think of Him, a physocitc father, and if it where the case, you would have a terribly sore backside, since you would be sinning against Him by breaking the aw every day. And Jesus sadi to obey His commandments, these ones,

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Just show me one place where Jesus said to keep the law. Just one , in fact

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

and again

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Teh law had its time like all things in time, a beginning and an end, now it is grace by Faith a gift, and you do know what a gift is dont you???

historyb said:

They are elements, please stop profaning Christ Real Presence.

Matthew 26:27-28, Mark 14:23-27, Luke 22:19-20 and none of these have symbolic language in them. St. Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are worthy to partake of the Blessed Eucharist so why do that if as you say it's all fake? Who cares then at drink and be merry for it's fake and no presence. However, if Christ is Present than you would get sick and die if you partook unworthily taking judgement unto yourself.

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In John 6, after Jesus told everyone they must eat and drink the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, He went on to say "the flesh profitteth nothing - THE WORDS I SPEAK TO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE."

So, here is at least on clearly delineated example where Jesus interpreted His "flesh" as His "Word". The cup of grape juice and the bread are as much symbolic of Jesus' body and blood as is the passage in John 6.

I will never be convinced the Christ Real Presence in in the Elements.