Calvinism is a Cult

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, very well constructed metaphor, and thank you for the kind approach, it is very refreshing.
:)
However, here is the problem for me; I am born blind to good things. You metaphor would 100% work, if I were not under the control of my father the Devil. I believe the problem is not with God, but with me; My own pride [sin nature] keeps me from accepting this free gift. And until Christ frees my will, and burries my pride Himself by the work of His Spirit, I will never accept this gift. It is almost akin to Romeo and Juliet. I am a metaphorical Montague, and the person trying to give me a free gift is a Capulet. No matter how enticing, or how kind spoken, I will never accept this gift unless God changes my will, and stops me from my blind, unjust hatred for Him.

Again, thank you for the polite conversation, it is enjoyable.
My perspective: Every person has that free will gifted by God. God did not design a world where people are slaves, nor does he enforce such slavery. Yes, there is totally that natural inclination for sinful/laziness, but each person has that choice. And God sends the Holy Spirit to minister to each person, and show them that His Truth, His wonders. And He offers each person the keys to a free mansion.
 

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
:)

My perspective: Every person has that free will gifted by God. God did not design a world where people are slaves, nor does he enforce such slavery. Yes, there is totally that natural inclination for sinful/laziness, but each person has that choice. And God sends the Holy Spirit to minister to each person, and show them that His Truth, His wonders. And He offers each person the keys to a free mansion.

I totally agree. God did not design a world where people are slaves, and Adam did have free will. The problem arose when he used that free will to sell himself over to slavery to the Devil, his own free will the price of admission. God did not stop Adam from selling himself into slavery either. He allowed him to make that choice on his own, and even warned Adam of the consequences before hand, which God really was not obligated to do. God's plan was for His creation to live forever, and to glorify Him, and Adam completely spat in God's face. Rather than let all of humanity crumble, God showed His great mercy in saving some for Himself, which I think we can agree He is completely entitled to do, right?

I am not going to bombard you with information like I would others, because you are a very respectful person and I want to show you the same respect. What are your thought on my explanation so far? Any disagreements?
Again, thanks for the politeness... I don't get it often
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
:)

My perspective: Every person has that free will gifted by God. God did not design a world where people are slaves, nor does he enforce such slavery. Yes, there is totally that natural inclination for sinful/laziness, but each person has that choice. And God sends the Holy Spirit to minister to each person, and show them that His Truth, His wonders. And He offers each person the keys to a free mansion.
Interesting conjecture. Actually, all outside of Christ are slaves due to the fall of man and are enslaved to sin. We are then according to God decreeing the fall, decreeing sin, he has then decreed man to be in this bondage as the result of disobedience. Of course it was also decreed by God that the Son save man from this bondage, namely his people, Matthew 1:21. None then are free until the Son sets them free, John 8:32-36.

Also no one is saved via their decision, or willing it; John 1:13 &c.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I totally agree. God did not design a world where people are slaves, and Adam did have free will. The problem arose when he used that free will to sell himself over to slavery to the Devil, his own free will the price of admission. God did not stop Adam from selling himself into slavery either. He allowed him to make that choice on his own, and even warned Adam of the consequences before hand, which God really was not obligated to do. God's plan was for His creation to live forever, and to glorify Him, and Adam completely spat in God's face. Rather than let all of humanity crumble, God showed His great mercy in saving some for Himself, which I think we can agree He is completely entitled to do, right?
Again, just sharing perspective here, not trying to argue/convince you of anything:
God didn't create a world of slavery, including when He placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, knowing that Adam & Eve would partake. Such partaking did not place the entire world under slavery. It did introduce death, pain, sin, etc, but did not remove the freedom God gives to each person. God still gives that free will to each person-- 100% free. Everything still goes 100% according to God's plan. Adam & Eve didn't derail anything.
Rather than let all of humanity crumble, God showed His great mercy in saving some for Himself, which I think we can agree He is completely entitled to do, right?
I believe that God gives His gift to ALL individuals. Not just some, but ALL. God's love is just that immense. Yes, some do spit in His face, but that's not because God isn't loving them and handing them keys to a free mansion.
I am not going to bombard you with information like I would others, because you are a very respectful person and I want to show you the same respect. What are your thought on my explanation so far? Any disagreements?
Again, thanks for the politeness... I don't get it often
Thank you for the respect and politeness as well. It's a rare and precious commodity.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
You are using the OT law which could not save to teach salvation by works for the self-righteous.
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
Nowhere in the text is it referring to gaining eternal salvation, nor is Joshua extending an "offer of the Gospel."

Nor is Joshua telling them to choose God but is instead telling them to choose which one of the false gods it is that they wish to follow. Salvation is not due to man's choosing; John 1:13 but is completely due to God's choosing; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,459
31,580
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are using the OT law which could not save to teach salvation by works for the self-righteous.
Am I? I simply quoted the verse. Why do you read things into it that I did not say? In any case has God ever changed? Has God ever been a respecter of persons? Has He ever offered more or less to one person than to another? It would appear that God made available greater things to people after the crucifixion and that day of Pentecost in Acts 2 than was available to those prior to that [OT included?]. So then would not God require less of them than He required of us to receive the same reward?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,459
31,580
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nowhere in the text is it referring to gaining eternal salvation, nor is Joshua extending an "offer of the Gospel."

Nor is Joshua telling them to choose God but is instead telling them to choose which one of the false gods it is that they wish to follow. Salvation is not due to man's choosing; John 1:13 but is completely due to God's choosing; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
Essentially the same choices have been offered to us as to them: God or mammon. In the Garden of Eden God's Way was to leave the tree alone whereas they chose instead the way of mammon. Most people have been choosing the way of mammon without regard to OT or NT:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Essentially the same choices have been offered to us as to them: God or mammon. In the Garden of Eden God's Way was to leave the tree alone whereas they chose instead the way of mammon. Most people have been choosing the way of mammon without regard to OT or NT:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24
All outside of Christ chooses "the way of Mammon", if you will, yet, man is still not saved via decision. I see passages that show we are saved by grace through faith, and exactly zero verses that say we're saved via decision.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All outside of Christ chooses "the way of Mammon", if you will, yet, man is still not saved via decision. I see passages that show we are saved by grace through faith, and exactly zero verses that say we're saved via decision.
Everyone believes that it is faith which saves.
The difference comes in with the following question: is faith a gift from God (the person can accept or reject it), or is faith something God puts on a person and the person has no choice in the matter.
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Everyone believes that it is faith which saves.
The difference comes in with the following question: is faith a gift from God (the person can accept or reject it), or is faith something God puts on a person and the person has no choice in the matter.
All of his are gladly saved once in Christ, although many kick against the goads. Faith is not inherent, not innate, but comes externally; Romans 10:17, and is the same power that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19, which is how we come to believe. It is of no surprise that faith comes from the Creator's Word, where all things have come. So yes, it is God's gift; Romans 12:3.

But that's another subject, the fact remains we are not saved via decision. This text is wonderful and shows just how it is all God's glory that we are saved and in Christ; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Soli Deo Gloria!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All of his are gladly saved once in Christ, although many kick against the goads. Faith is not inherent, not innate, but comes externally; Romans 10:17, and is the same power that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19, which is how we come to believe. It is of no surprise that faith comes from the Creator's Word, where all things have come. So yes, it is God's gift; Romans 12:3.
Everyone agree with what you said thus far, and that is is God's glory that we are saved.
But this response doesn't get at the core of this disagreement:
1) Is the gift of salvation a gift which is offered to all men, whom can accept or reject it
2) Or is the gift of salvation something a person has no choice to accept or reject it, and is only given to some people
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Am I? I simply quoted the verse. Why do you read things into it that I did not say? In any case has God ever changed? Has God ever been a respecter of persons? Has He ever offered more or less to one person than to another? It would appear that God made available greater things to people after the crucifixion and that day of Pentecost in Acts 2 than was available to those prior to that [OT included?]. So then would not God require less of them than He required of us to receive the same reward?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21) (KJV 1900)

The law saved no one. It only threatened death for disobedience and promised rewards for obedience. But these were only temporal physical benefits God used to control the wicked Jews. The Born Again among them were saved by grace. And being motivated by love, they did all the law demanded and far more.
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Everyone agree with what you said thus far, and that is is God's glory that we are saved.
But this response doesn't get at the core of this disagreement:
1) Is the gift of salvation a gift which is offered to all men, whom can accept or reject it
2) Or is the gift of salvation something a person has no choice to accept or reject it, and is only given to some people
It's highly doubtful everyone agrees with what I've said, lol.

I really don't see salvation as an offer, I see the command to repent and believe and that all that the Father has given him will come to him, John 6:37. It is also apparent that even if it were an offer the flesh would profit nothing concerning being saved (John 6:63) so you're still arguing for decisional regeneration/saved by choice just via a new angle.

The fact remains no man believes via his will unto salvation, so the point of an offer is moot. Scripture is clear God seeks out and saves his people; 2 Timothy 2:8-10 &c and they believe showing evidence of conversion. God chose whom he would save before the foundation of the world, and only these will be saved.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,243
3,444
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's highly doubtful everyone agrees with what I've said, lol.

I really don't see salvation as an offer, I see the command to repent and believe and that all that the Father has given him will come to him, John 6:37. It is also apparent that even if it were an offer the flesh would profit nothing concerning being saved (John 6:63) so you're still arguing for decisional regeneration/saved by choice just via a new angle.

The fact remains no man believes via his will unto salvation, so the point of an offer is moot. Scripture is clear God seeks out and saves his people; 2 Timothy 2:8-10 &c and they believe showing evidence of conversion. God chose whom he would save before the foundation of the world, and only these will be saved.
Does such a man also have the free will to *not* come to Him?

From the Calvinist standpoint: no. There is no choice for anyone to come or not at any point.
From the non-Calvinist standpoint: yes. God gives that free will to everyone- it is a gift, as is salvation.
 

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does such a man also have the free will to *not* come to Him?

From the Calvinist standpoint: no. There is no choice for anyone to come or not at any point.
From the non-Calvinist standpoint: yes. God gives that free will to everyone- it is a gift, as is salvation.
No man is free outside of Christ, in their will, or otherwise; John 8:36.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No man is free in their will, John 8:36, the flesh profits nothing which includes choosing; John 6:63, and we aren't saved via human will or decision anyhow; John 1:13; James 1:18; Romans 9:16. Therefore incessantly going back to man's choice via his "free" will is unprofitable, a misnomer, let alone unbiblical.

But, people keep on going there no matter what Scripture teaches to the contrary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace

Preacher4Truth

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
2,252
2,861
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am fully aware of the Calvinistic born-a-slave viewpoint.
I just passionately disagree with it, for reasons I explained earlier.

Thank you for your time.
No problem, but it is duly noted you have used zero Scripture in your conclusions. Nor have you addressed any offered that refute your position and present the biblical case.

Anyhow, thanks to you as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SovereignGrace