BAPTISM

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marksman

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If you went to bible college as I did, you would have been told that you do not form a doctrine with one verse of scripture. Despite that fact, the church has done that very thing by taking the verse in Matthew 28 which says to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost.

In regards to baptism, that is the only verse that says that.

All the other verses that talk about baptism says they were to or were baptised in the name of Jesus or the name of Jesus Christ.

Now the question is did the church ignore Jesus teaching and do things their way or did they do this as told by Jesus and the passage in Matthew 28 is wrong or did they understand to be baptised in the name of father, son and holy spirit was to baptise in the name of Jesus bearing in mind that father, son and holy spirit are not names, they are titles?
 

Jane_Doe22

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This is something you are going to find a million answers to throughout Christiandom. There are so many different views on even the questions "what is baptism" and "why get baptized". You really got to start at those basics first.
 

justbyfaith

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Oneness Pentecostals claim to be the one true church.

If there is any validity to that claim, then among those who are truly born again (real "Christendom"), you will only find one answer to the question in the OP.
 
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101G

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Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

he being with us is the key,

Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance".

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

PICJAG.
 

BreadOfLife

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If you went to bible college as I did, you would have been told that you do not form a doctrine with one verse of scripture. Despite that fact, the church has done that very thing by taking the verse in Matthew 28 which says to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost.

In regards to baptism, that is the only verse that says that.

All the other verses that talk about baptism says they were to or were baptised in the name of Jesus or the name of Jesus Christ.

Now the question is did the church ignore Jesus teaching and do things their way or did they do this as told by Jesus and the passage in Matthew 28 is wrong or did they understand to be baptised in the name of father, son and holy spirit was to baptise in the name of Jesus bearing in mind that father, son and holy spirit are not names, they are titles?
"Jesus Christ" isn't His name, either. It was "Jesus bar Joseph".
"Christ" was His Title (Anointed) - so you're back at square one . . .

What we really need to understand is that Sola Scriptura is a baseless and self-refuting heresy.
NOWHERE do the Scripture teach that everything we know about God and His Church must be explicitly gleaned from the pages of Scripture. NOWHERE does Scripture claim to be the SOLE Authority.
Scripture DOES, however, make this claim about Christ's Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

For example, Scripture is silent on the METHOD of Baptism.
Early Christian writings, however, such as The Didache (AD 50) show that although Immersion wasa the preferred method - provisions were made for POURING over the head. This was ALWAYS accompanied by the invoking of he Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
was written while the Apostles were still alive.
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.


The Early Church Fathers attest to the fact that not only was this taught by the Apostles - but that they ALSO passed down the Tradition of Infant Baptism . . .

Justin Martyr

For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
 
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justbyfaith

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Believer's baptism is the only baptism that is valid.

Mar 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That being said, Jesus also said, Let the little children come unto me, and forbid them not.

Therefore as soon as they have the ability to make a faith choice on the matter, they should be allowed to receive baptism.
 
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historyb

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"Jesus Christ" isn't His name, either. It was "Jesus bar Joseph".
"Christ" was His Title (Anointed) - so you're back at square one . . .

What we really need to understand is that Sola Scriptura is a baseless and self-refuting heresy.
NOWHERE do the Scripture teach that everything we know about God and His Church must be explicitly gleaned from the pages of Scripture. NOWHERE does Scripture claim to be the SOLE Authority.
Scripture DOES, however, make this claim about Christ's Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

For example, Scripture is silent on the METHOD of Baptism.
Early Christian writings, however, such as The Didache (AD 50) show that although Immersion wasa the preferred method - provisions were made for POURING over the head. This was ALWAYS accompanied by the invoking of he Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
was written while the Apostles were still alive.
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.


The Early Church Fathers attest to the fact that not only was this taught by the Apostles - but that they ALSO passed down the Tradition of Infant Baptism . . .

Justin Martyr

For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Great post. This Sunday some children may get baptized and have an indelible mark on them. People think that baptism is what we do it is not it is what God does to us. Unfortunately throw out what the Church did from the beginning and did their own thing.
 

marksman

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"Jesus Christ" isn't His name, either. It was "Jesus bar Joseph".
"Christ" was His Title (Anointed) - so you're back at square one . . .

What we really need to understand is that Sola Scriptura is a baseless and self-refuting heresy.
NOWHERE do the Scripture teach that everything we know about God and His Church must be explicitly gleaned from the pages of Scripture. NOWHERE does Scripture claim to be the SOLE Authority.
Scripture DOES, however, make this claim about Christ's Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

For example, Scripture is silent on the METHOD of Baptism.
Early Christian writings, however, such as The Didache (AD 50) show that although Immersion wasa the preferred method - provisions were made for POURING over the head. This was ALWAYS accompanied by the invoking of he Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles)
was written while the Apostles were still alive.
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.


The Early Church Fathers attest to the fact that not only was this taught by the Apostles - but that they ALSO passed down the Tradition of Infant Baptism . . .

Justin Martyr

For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

All very nice but I prefer to stick with what the bibles teaches which is baptism by immersion.
 

justbyfaith

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All very nice but I prefer to stick with what the bibles teaches which is baptism by immersion.
Actually, it seems that Ezekiel 36:25-27 sets forth sprinkling as a valid form of baptism. And if you do not have access to a large enough body of water, but only have access to a drinking fountain (such as might be in the case that you are of the church of Smyrna in Revelation chapter 2), it may be all you can accomplish; and it is certainly better than nothing.
 
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H. Richard

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Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

he being with us is the key,

Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance".

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

PICJAG.


A person has to decide who Jesus is talking to. Jews, or both Jews and Gentiles. The covenant promises were only made to the Jews. The Holy Spirit was only promised to the Jews at that time. That is clear when you acknowledge that Peter did not know Gentiles were included until he was given a vision by Jesus (God).
 
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101G

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A person has to decide who Jesus is talking to. Jews, or both Jews and Gentiles. The covenant promises were only made to the Jews. The Holy Spirit was only promised to the Jews at that time. That is clear when you acknowledge that Peter did not know Gentiles were included until he was given a vision by Jesus (God).
first thanks for the reply, second, we must disagree with that assessment, and here's why. Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

so the PROMISE is not just for the Jews ONLY, but to those who afar off, and whom the Lord Call.

PICJAG.
 
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Zachary

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Well, this'll sure blow your minds ...

Matthew 28:
18 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


Some of the things Jesus commanded them were:
cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, etc.

To do these things, they did NOT need water baptism,
they needed the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(confirmed by saying some words in tongues),
which will give them spiritual power! ...

Just before ascending, Jesus said to them ...
● “Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of
Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)
● “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift He promised,
as I told you before [in Luke 24:49]. John baptized with water, but
in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 1:4)
● “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon [not inside] you.
And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere …” (Acts 1:8)

Is there any chance that Jesus was talking about this Holy Spirit baptism,
and not water baptism?

+
 
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marksman

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Actually, it seems that Ezekiel 36:25-27 sets forth sprinkling as a valid form of baptism. And if you do not have access to a large enough body of water, but only have access to a drinking fountain (such as might be in the case that you are of the church of Smyrna in Revelation chapter 2), it may be all you can accomplish; and it is certainly better than nothing.

I never base a doctrine on the exception.
 

justbyfaith

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I never base a doctrine on the exception.
That is fine for you...but if you believe that baptism has the power to save as I do...and if you ever end up in a situation where water is scarce...then I think that you would find that for the sake of the salvation of those to whom you are ministering, you would sprinkle them for that immersion is not available. And if not, I would ask, where is your heart? For the sake of a doctrine you would exclude these people from being able to be saved. And this is not the heart of our Lord and Saviour.
 
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Dave L

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That is fine for you...but if you believe that baptism has the power to save as I do...and if you ever end up in a situation where water is scarce...then I think that you would find that for the sake of the salvation of those to whom you are ministering, you would sprinkle them for that immersion is not available. And if not, I would ask, where is your heart? For the sake of a doctrine you would exclude these people from being able to be saved. And this is not the heart of our Lord and Saviour.
Do you believe that unless a person is baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, they are not saved?
 

H. Richard

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first thanks for the reply, second, we must disagree with that assessment, and here's why. Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

so the PROMISE is not just for the Jews ONLY, but to those who afar off, and whom the Lord Call.

PICJAG.

If that is what you believe its okay with me but I disagree. Peter did not know the Gentiles were included on the day of Pentecost. See Acts 10.

Some day you will realize that the writings in the 4 gospels, and some of Acts, is on covenant grounds and not grace. The covenants were only given to the nation of Israel (the Jews).
 

101G

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Some of the things Jesus commanded them were:
cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, etc.

To do these things, they did NOT need water baptism,
they needed the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(confirmed by saying some words in tongues),
which will give them spiritual power! ...
GINOLJC, to all
but they would need the BAPTISM "OF" the Holy Spirit First, then they are Baptised "WITH" the Holy Spirit to do those things.

and in order to be Baptized "of" and "with" the Holy Spirit, one must be A. believer, and b. be Obedient to the FAITH... meaning water Baptized.

PICJAG.
 

Enoch111

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Some day you will realize that the writings in the 4 gospels, and some of Acts, is on covenant grounds and not grace. The covenants were only given to the nation of Israel (the Jews).
So you are suggesting that the Gospels were only for the Jews, but that is incorrect. The Gospels were primarily for the Church, and secondarily for the whole world. Luke wrote his Gospel specifically for Theophilus (lover of God), who may have been a Gentile of high rank. And John makes it clear that he wrote his Gospel for the whole world.

The four Gospels present Christ in four aspects, which also correspond to the four faces of the Cherubim. The lion represents Christ as King (Matthew), the man represents Christ as fully human (Luke) , the ox represents Christ as the Servant of Jehovah (Mark), and the eagle represents Christ as God (John).
 
D

Dave L

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GINOLJC, to all
but they would need the BAPTISM "OF" the Holy Spirit First, then they are Baptised "WITH" the Holy Spirit to do those things.

and in order to be Baptized "of" and "with" the Holy Spirit, one must be A. believer, and b. be Obedient to the FAITH... meaning water Baptized.

PICJAG.
Do you believe that unless a person is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and speaks in tongues, they are not saved?