Calvinism is a Cult

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mjrhealth

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If you quote OT scripture aimed at keeping the law, and try to peddle it as the gospel, you are deceived.
No He did not, He quoted scripture stating how the law does not, but I guess that isnt what you want to see..
 
D

Dave L

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"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

No He did not, He quoted scripture stating how the law does not, but I guess that isnt what you want to see..

This is salvation by works.
 

amadeus

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This is salvation by works.
You have established what you believe and then look to the written scripture for support, instead of looking to God for any necessary understanding and correction:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 

justbyfaith

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the bible teaches that God has always had a definite intention to redeem a certain people and not to redeem others (e.g. 1Ch 17:20-21; Mat 22:14; 1Pe 2:8-9: Ezek 36);

Those scriptures do not adequately teach that.

So the question "For whom did Christ die?" is answered by "the ones whom He represented" in his high priestly prayer in John chapter 17.

That is a good point. See John 17:20.

Jhn 17:20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Therefore He died for those whom He foreknew would believe on Him.

If someone does not believe on Him, they are not one for whom Christ died.

However, Calvinism implies that if someone is one of God's elect, it does not matter if they never make a decision to receive Christ; or if they never do believe on Him. What matters is that God chose them for salvation. Their faith therefore, doesn't matter as a catalyst for salvation; because, even though the Calvinist sidesteps the issue by saying that faith is the result of being born again; still the person is not saved by grace through faith, and so faith is not needed, only grace is needed. Because the person is not saved through their faith, a person can have grace without faith and still be saved; because faith is not the catalyst for their salvation; only grace.

The scriptures so adamantly denied by Calvinists are the passages that are in some ways the most foundational to the true Christian faith: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5:1-2, and John 3:16-17. I would suggest to every reader that when discerning whether the preaching of Calvinism be true or not, that they measure and weigh out the doctrines of Calvinist preachers by these three passages. Memorize them and keep them in mind when discussing Calvinism with its proponents. You will find that these are the scripture passages most often contradicted by what the Calvinist will try to say unto you.
 
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justbyfaith

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The problem with Calvinism is that it takes away human responsibility.

Because God chooses us for either heaven or for hell against our will (and within Calvinistic belief one must cut out of their Bibles such verses as Romans 10:9-13 which teach us that we can do something in order to obtain the salvation that the Lord has provided), therefore I am not responsible for it if the Lord puts me in hell; He chose me for that destination and therefore I cannot choose any other path than the one that is headed to that destination. Therefore I am not responsible for the fact that I have walked the path to hell; because God chose that path for me and put me on it and offered me no other recourse so that I might be able to instead walk the path towards heaven: He set me on the path to hell by His sovereign choice and there is nothing that I can do to change that.

So then, when faced with the message of the gospel, and the response is required of me, to either receive or reject Christ, I will say that the choice does not belong to me and therefore I cannot and will not make a choice; because I am either predesitnated to heaven or to hell and there is nothing that I can do about the choice that the Lord has made concerning this. If I call on the name of the Lord I will not be saved if I was not first chosen by the Lord from before the foundations of the world, contrary to what scripture teaches in Romans 10:9-13.

Therefore Calvinism effectively puts a stop to people being saved through the method that God has prescribed in Romans 10:9-13. Because it is not calling on the name of the Lord that will save, the sinner will respond, Why call on the name of the Lord? It is up to God whether I will go to heaven or not, therefore I have an advantage over God: if He puts me in hell, I can accuse Him of being an unjust Monster; therefore if God wants to keep a good conscience He had better put me and everyone else in heaven. This leads to the heresy of Universalism.

It has been said in defense of the Lord that He does not send anyone to hell; rather they send themselves by rejecting what He has done for them: however this is not true in Calvinism; and yet it is the only viable answer to the common objection, How can a loving God send people to hell?

Calvinism therefore, also gives people a reason to reject faith in Christ, because this reasonable objection is not adequately answered in their minds, if they are talking with Calvinists on the issue.

And also, why is evangelism needed if everyone is predestinated by God's predetermined choice in the matter and calling on the name of the Lord means nothing? There is no real reason why we should go and attempt to persuade men to call on the name of the Lord, because even if they do it does not procure salvation or guarantee it, and within Calvinism it is also quite taught (by implication) that if someone does not call on the name of the Lord they may still be saved; and this is heretical and against the very real truth of John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, and Revelation 22:17.

Calvinism deters people from making the decision to receive Christ; and in this it is indeed cultic in nature; it is a teaching that keeps people from doing what it takes to receive salvation and is therefore very dangerous to the souls of those who believe in it.

You have a wrong view of biblical foreknowledge to start with
GOD has already chosen every elect person.
All men were condemned by Adams fall.
GOD saves a multitude in Christ, enabling them to come savingly to Jesus.
You might not have spoken to biblical Calvinists before. We will correct that for you now.
You will soon discover that we have studied the teaching long enough to answer anything you have for us.

You can start with Limited Atonement.

Does that not teach that Christ did not die for everyone, but only for a select few?

If He did not die for you, then does that not mean that if you call on the name of the Lord, you will not be saved; because He didn't die for you?

Even if you have an answer for this, I would contend that a lot of confusion could be avoided by not teaching the source of the confusion in the first place.

My view of foreknowledge is the biblical one; that God chose us before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge of whether we would receive or reject Christ.

However, in Calvinism, it is by a predetermined choice of God; and foreknowledge of whether we receive or reject Christ has nothing to do with it.

One Calvinist proponent continually asserts that we do not have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; but that rather we have access by grace into faith; that we are saved by faith through grace. This is the reverse order of what scripture teaches.

They also assert that a person cannot have faith in Jesus unless they are saved first.

This would indicate that calling on the name of the Lord is not what saved them, but rather they were saved first and then they called on the name of the Lord. But if salvation comes first, why even call on the name of the Lord for salvation? You're already saved; so there is no need to call on His name.

In my version of this (what I believe to be accurate according to Romans 10:10), calling on the name of the Lord is unto salvation; but righteousness must come first through faith. A person may have righteousness (believing that God rose Jesus from the dead) but not have salvation. For confession is made unto salvation (are you looking at the verses?).

I do believe that the same heat that melts the butter, also hardens the clay. If you remove from the analogy the concept of the fact that these are inanimate objects, and look to what the clay and butter represent, you can see that the clay might indeed choose to harden and the butter may indeed choose to melt. However the butter melts because it is butter and the clay hardens because it is clay.

So then, if I am butter, I will respond with faith (a softened heart) when I am faced with the gospel. Calling on the name of the Lord, and/or confessing with the mouth the Lord Jesus, is the only sure response of a saving faith. It becomes saving faith the moment the confession begins to be made, or the moment the person prays to receive Christ (John 1:12, Matthew 7:7-8); which is to call on His name.

Scriptures:

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Then there is Unconditional Election.

Does this not teach that we are elected to salvation based on the predetermined choice of God beforehand, and nothing else? That our calling on the name of the Lord does not have anything to do with it? If we called on the name of the Lord to be saved, then does that not mean that the Lord placed our calling on His name as a condition for election?

If some are elected unconditionally to salvation, and also, Limited Atonement is a reality (not Universalism) then some will also go to hell because God did not choose them for salvation. Not choosing them for salvation is in essence choosing that they not be saved, is it not? If not, why not?
 

SovereignGrace

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Sorry, but Satan has deceived you, and you only imagine that God is behind your false doctrine. So let's turn to Scripture to establish that you are deceived:

1 JOHN 4:14
Καὶ ἡμεῖς τεθεάμεθα καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν ὅτι ὁ πατὴρ ἀπέσταλκεν τὸν υἱὸν σωτῆρα τοῦ κόσμου.
New International Version
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
New Living Translation
Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
English Standard Version
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
New American Standard Bible
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
King James Bible
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent His Son as the world's Savior.
International Standard Version
We have seen for ourselves and can testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
NET Bible
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And we see and do testify that The Father has sent his Son, The Savior for the world.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
We have seen and testify to the fact that the Father sent his Son as the Savior of the world.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
King James 2000 Bible
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
American King James Version
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
American Standard Version
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And we have seen, and do testify, that the Father hath sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Darby Bible Translation
And *we* have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son [as] Saviour of the world.
English Revised Version
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Webster's Bible Translation
And we have seen and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Weymouth New Testament
And we have seen and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
World English Bible
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.
Young's Literal Translation
And we -- we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son -- Saviour of the world;


Not a single Bible translation calls Christ "the Savior of the elect". So SATANIC DECEPTION is behind Calvinism.
If He is the Saviour of the whole world, then the whole world is saved and universalism reigns supreme.
 

Enoch111

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If He is the Saviour of the whole world, then the whole world is saved and universalism reigns supreme.
No. God requires obedience to the Gospel, and not all will obey the Gospel, therefore all will not be saved. And Universalism will be shown to be false teaching.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:13,16)

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

So what the Bible says is that all MAY BE saved, but that not all WILL BE saved. *Every creature* and *whosoever* removes any doubt that all may be saved if all will obey the Gospel.
 
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Mjh29

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Still not a reason for trying to persuade others when there is no freewill to choose.

So you're not going to answer? It is a simple question: Did Christ die for the sins of all?
 

CoreIssue

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So you're not going to answer? It is a simple question: Did Christ die for the sins of all?

Yes, contingent upon repentance in free will by faith through grace.

Why are the Calvinist trying to prove their claims if we have no freewill to choose?
 

Mjh29

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Yes, contingent upon repentance in free will by faith through grace.

Why are the Calvinist trying to prove their claims if we have no freewill to choose?

Ok, so Christ died for all sins. Is unbelief a sin?
 

justbyfaith

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In his monumental work on the atonement, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, John Owen made the following assessment, which has yet to be satisfactorily answered by any proponent of so-called unlimited atonement:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

1) All the sins of all men;

2) All the sins of some men; or

3) Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Unbelief is a sin (like the unpardonable sin) that will keep a person out of heaven, since faith (the antonym of unbelief) is the means by which one enters in.

It is paid for if it is repented of, if it is not repented of, it is not paid for.

Christ paid for the sins of all men, which is appropriated by repentance and faith in Jesus and His shed blood.
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Looks like this incontrovertible question has now been answered, in a few simple words.
 

Mjh29

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Unbelief is a sin (like the unpardonable sin) that will keep a person out of heaven, since faith is the means by which one enters in.

It is paid for if it is repented of, if it is not repented of, it is not paid for.

Christ paid for the sins of all men, which is appropriated by repentance and faith in Jesus and His shed blood.
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Looks like this incontrovertible question has now been answered, in a few simple words.

But you say Christ died for all sins of all men.... this would include the sin of unbelief. Which means if Christ died for all men and for all sin, then this sin would be covered as well, and all men would get into heaven. Do all men get into heaven?

Looks like this question remains still unanswered...
 

justbyfaith

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But you say Christ died for all sins of all men.... this would include the sin of unbelief. Which means if Christ died for all men and for all sin, then this sin would be covered as well, and all men would get into heaven. Do all men get into heaven?

Looks like this question remains still unanswered...
It is covered....for those who repent of their unbelief and believe, they are forgiven of their former unbelief. No, in this all men do not go to heaven; for not all men repent and believe.
 

Mjh29

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A sin by freewill choice to not repent.

But then Christ died for all men and all sin, which would include this sin of unbelief. If God died for all men and all sin, and unbelief is a sin, then Christ covered this sin and therefore all men go to heaven. Do all men go to heaven?
 

Mjh29

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It is covered....for those who repent of their unbelief and believe, they are forgiven of their former unbelief.
But you said Christ died for all sins unconditionally. Is there now a condition put on some sins for them to be forgiven? But this would mean that Christ did not die for all sins, but only those without condition.

Did Christ die for all sins or only for unconditional sins?
 
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